All-new Heljan 47 in 00 gauge

[amwells]

13 minutes ago, Legend said:

Well you have duplication here .  The main models in the 47 frame are Bachmann and Heljan .  Competition would appear not to have worked. 

I’d debate that it hasn’t worked yet.  The Heljan 47 isn’t imminent, so Bachmann don’t need to put prices down at the moment. And now that Heljan have revealed their hand, neither will they. The recent examples of class 66 and 45 show a different behaviour. And with the former, Hornby flooding multiple versions (yes of a different standard) also impacted. 
 

If enough people (and who knows what quantity that is on these runs) decide that this price level is not for them, then no company (retailers or manufacturers) will want stock hanging around. There is a risk that it’s then a race to the bottom on price which will be good for nobody (we’ve been there before). 

[Global]

The bit I struggle with is that Accurascale are producing an all singing 37 for £169.99 or £259.99 with sound! 
 

So for £30 more you’ll be able to get a sound fitted 37 vs a DCC ready 47! 
 

I’d actually say with those differences that the door is wide open for Accurascale to produce a 47 if they so wished and it would do very well - I’d also have more confidence in it being accurate compared to the Heljan one with their track record. 

[sulzer71]

1 hour ago, wirey33 said:

I'm sure this is a huge factor in the pricing choice; all hell will break loose when the £200 barrier is broken for an non-sound fitted, non-weathered loco.

Already broken with the recently announced new Bachmann 57

[amwells]

3 minutes ago, Global said:

The bit I struggle with is that Accurascale are producing an all singing 37 for £169.99 or £259.99 with sound! 
 

So for £30 more you’ll be able to get a sound fitted 37 vs a DCC ready 47! 
 

I’d actually say with those differences that the door is wide open for Accurascale to produce a 47 if they so wished and it would do very well - I’d also have more confidence in it being accurate compared to the Heljan one with their track record. 

while I don’t disagree with this, it probably reinforces my point about timing. I have several Accurascale wagons, and they are lovely, but they have not yet brought any British locos to market, so the threat, while very real, is not here yet. When they start delivering (and I look forward to it), then they may start influencing the wider market prices. 

[rob D2]

Personnaly I thought Heljan would retire from OO and just do O, the off loading of the 58 I thought was a part of that but apparently not .

 

£200 is out of my budget , and I , before covid earned enough to buy most things I wanted .

 

I’ve almost got all the 47s I wanted in all the rainbow colours , and find myself actually buying bodies and swapping periods that way .

 

if I ever get to build Paddington before I die , I’ll need bulk blue 47s which would mean Bachmann at 100-150 quid , possibly secondhand 

[rembrow]

9 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Personnaly I thought Heljan would retire from OO and just do O, the off loading of the 58 I thought was a part of that but apparently not .

 

£200 is out of my budget , and I , before covid earned enough to buy most things I wanted .

 

I’ve almost got all the 47s I wanted in all the rainbow colours , and find myself actually buying bodies and swapping periods that way .

 

if I ever get to build Paddington before I die , I’ll need bulk blue 47s which would mean Bachmann at 100-150 quid , possibly secondhand 

If you see the recent Heljan interview with Ben Jones to the Hornby mag team, it's clear they intend to progress their 'oo range. They currently have 6 proposed new models in the pipeline and 1 variation, with 3 new models expected in the next 3 months (class 86, GWR railcar and Class 25). I think the Class 58 moving to the EFE Rail brand is a bit of a red herring and is probably due to the contractual issues of Heljan previously producing a run of several livery 58s exclusively for Olivias Trains. It was stated at the time that Heljan would not produce further 58s while Olivias had remaining stock. Currently Olivias have all of their exclusive 58s still in stock.

[Legend]

32 minutes ago, Global said:

The bit I struggle with is that Accurascale are producing an all singing 37 for £169.99 or £259.99 with sound! 
 

So for £30 more you’ll be able to get a sound fitted 37 vs a DCC ready 47! 
 

I’d actually say with those differences that the door is wide open for Accurascale to produce a 47 if they so wished and it would do very well - I’d also have more confidence in it being accurate compared to the Heljan one with their track record. 

 

I think in fairness we have to take into account that Accurascale have a different route to market . I know they are trying to build up a retail network but I think most people currently buy direct . This means they keep the Commisioner and Retailers profit margin which means they have more scope on pricing . 

 

That said as others pass the £200 mark there is a danger their models could be picked off . A 47 from Accurascale would be brave , because of all the different models still out there . But on the other hand these boys are building a reputation for quality and value for money . I can well see that an Accurascale 47 could be successful simply because its produced by Accurascale 

[pheaton]

the £200+ model has always been inevitable....ironically back in the good days of £60 Bachmann class 37, Heljan shocked everyone by bringing out a 47 and a hymek  with an RRP of £90 odd quid, cant remember the exact price but there was a pretty wide gulf between them.

 

the Heljan class 47 would have to be pretty special for me to consider buying it.... but im too heavily invested in Bachmann class 47s to consider wholesale upgrades....same with the 37 tbh the accurascale one really needs to offer something that Bachmann (even with there current faults) cant offer.

 

 

[rob D2]

15 minutes ago, pheaton said:

the £200+ model has always been inevitable....ironically back in the good days of £60 Bachmann class 37, Heljan shocked everyone by bringing out a 47 and a hymek  with an RRP of £90 odd quid, cant remember the exact price but there was a pretty wide gulf between them.

 

the Heljan class 47 would have to be pretty special for me to consider buying it.... but im too heavily invested in Bachmann class 47s to consider wholesale upgrades....same with the 37 tbh the accurascale one really needs to offer something that Bachmann (even with there current faults) cant offer.

 

 

That’s the thing though - I’m willing to have a punt at £160, not so 200 plus,  ut I guess we have our own glass ceiling.

 

when I look at the Bach 37 it seems less acceptable than the 47 - might be the very chromatic glazing that just looks old and gash 

[pheaton]

my over-riding question is that while price rises are inevitable...and we can all guess the reasons behind it....does it hurt the high street retailers...Is the margin made on a single £200 model less than say 2 £100 models?...do they have to decrease the discount they offer in order to make up the margin on a single model?

 

 

[rob D2]

21 minutes ago, pheaton said:

my over-riding question is that while price rises are inevitable...and we can all guess the reasons behind it....does it hurt the high street retailers...Is the margin made on a single £200 model less than say 2 £100 models?...do they have to decrease the discount they offer in order to make up the margin on a single model?

 

 

Who knows and you’ll never find out as it’s commercially sensitive info 

[Ouroborus]

4 hours ago, pheaton said:

my over-riding question is that while price rises are inevitable...and we can all guess the reasons behind it....does it hurt the high street retailers...Is the margin made on a single £200 model less than say 2 £100 models?...do they have to decrease the discount they offer in order to make up the margin on a single model?

 

 

 

Short answer : dunno.

I guess retailers now rely on preorders to give some indication on how many to order in.  Some stuff always shifts, so easier to guess this, other stuff less so.  Just what is the demand for a DRS 57?  Has it already been satisfied?    As a retailer, should i get a few in so i have something for the shelves, or could this risk me getting stuck with stuff?  It becomes an expensive gamble.   Is even having stock to show on a shelf worth a punt or is a box shifter the way to go?

How about the consumer, savvy of previous fire-sales where 101's and similar were hoovered up for £70 against the £229 they now command.  Is the Heljan 47 worth a pre-order?  Should i wait and see what its like.  Should i wait and see if there is much demand and hope for another dump of unsold stock?  I like Heljan models, particularly the weight they have and some of their little locos are belters.  But if its between a BR Blue 47 and a BR Blue 86, i'll treat myself to the latter.  I have enough Bachmann 47's that will 'do'.

Back in the day, I'll put my hand up to several impulse buys of locomotives, particularly when a hot cup of tea was thrust in my hand, but these days that doesn't happen.   Still get the tea though, which is awkward....

[wombatofludham]

On 08/11/2020 at 17:10, shunny said:

Gaugemaster have announced several new exclusive models as part of their Gaugemaster collection range

 https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/model-railways/gm-collection-brand5.html?scale=452

 

 

I don't mean to be rude to Gaugemaster but this is Gaugemaster who have a bit of form for charging premium prices.  When you can get their own brand commissioned plastic kits (re-runs by and large of old Hornby and various Continental produced kits) cheaper than from Gaugemaster direct, frankly I'm less than surprised at the prices.  I'm also not going to get into a tiswas over them.  If I can afford them and there's something I want, great, if I can't, I don't think I'll jump off Barmouth Bridge.  However, extrapolating the end of civilisation and the hobby on the basis of one commissioner's choice of pricing is a bit histrionic and frankly nonsense.

[shunny]

52 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

 

Short answer : dunno.

I guess retailers now rely on preorders to give some indication on how many to order in.  Some stuff always shifts, so easier to guess this, other stuff less so.  Just what is the demand for a DRS 57?  Has it already been satisfied?    As a retailer, should i get a few in so i have something for the shelves, or could this risk me getting stuck with stuff?  It becomes an expensive gamble.   Is even having stock to show on a shelf worth a punt or is a box shifter the way to go?

How about the consumer, savvy of previous fire-sales where 101's and similar were hoovered up for £70 against the £229 they now command.  Is the Heljan 47 worth a pre-order?  Should i wait and see what its like.  Should i wait and see if there is much demand and hope for another dump of unsold stock?  I like Heljan models, particularly the weight they have and some of their little locos are belters.  But if its between a BR Blue 47 and a BR Blue 86, i'll treat myself to the latter.  I have enough Bachmann 47's that will 'do'.

Back in the day, I'll put my hand up to several impulse buys of locomotives, particularly when a hot cup of tea was thrust in my hand, but these days that doesn't happen.   Still get the tea though, which is awkward....

My local retailer placed order with Bachmann for stock levels he thought he could sell on the announcement day  Tuesday last week. On the Thursday he tried to increase order for sound fitted WCR 57 and was told sorry all pro-ordered so even retailers cant wait for customers to put orders some items are selling out at Bachmann on the day they are announced.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Hi all, 

 

Hope you are all well? 

 

I have been in touch with GaugeMaster today and they have confirmed the following regarding the Class 47s and Class 86s that were announced via their website over the weekend:

 

• The price of these locomotives at £229.95 each for DCC Ready models is correct for at least the Rail Operations Group 47815 locomotive which I enquired about, so I am assuming that the price for the other five Class 47s is also the same. GaugeMaster didn't say anything different. 
• They are all due to be released next year in 2021 but their is currently no scheduled month for them to arrive
• The locomotives can be pre-ordered via the website and no payment will be taken until the models are about to be dispatched
• All of these locomotives are exclusive to the GaugeMaster Collection but from what I can gather won't come with certificates
• All of the locomotives will be 8 Pin DCC Ready
• The latest Class 47 and Class 86 tooling will be used to produce these models (although if this is correct then I am assuming that the 8 Pin DCC Ready piece of information means that both classes will actually be 21 Pin DCC Ready, as the latest tooling offers 21 Pin functionality from what I have seen online. So I am assuming that the 8 Pin functionality is an error). 

All of these locomotives will be produced by Heljan for the GaugeMaster Collection.

 

I hope that this information is of use. 

 

Thank you. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

[Class 158 productions]

45 minutes ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

Hi all, 

 

Hope you are all well? 

 

I have been in touch with GaugeMaster today and they have confirmed the following regarding the Class 47s and Class 86s that were announced via their website over the weekend:

 

• The price of these locomotives at £229.95 each for DCC Ready models is correct for at least the Rail Operations Group 47815 locomotive which I enquired about, so I am assuming that the price for the other five Class 47s is also the same. GaugeMaster didn't say anything different. 
• They are all due to be released next year in 2021 but their is currently no scheduled month for them to arrive
• The locomotives can be pre-ordered via the website and no payment will be taken until the models are about to be dispatched
• All of these locomotives are exclusive to the GaugeMaster Collection but from what I can gather won't come with certificates
• All of the locomotives will be 8 Pin DCC Ready
• The latest Class 47 and Class 86 tooling will be used to produce these models (although if this is correct then I am assuming that the 8 Pin DCC Ready piece of information means that both classes will actually be 21 Pin DCC Ready, as the latest tooling offers 21 Pin functionality from what I have seen online. So I am assuming that the 8 Pin functionality is an error). 

All of these locomotives will be produced by Heljan for the GaugeMaster Collection.

 

I hope that this information is of use. 

 

Thank you. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

Thanks for that, very useful. How long till we now see modern 47s creeping out of the woodwork from Bachmann, like with 66 731, really hope these 47s deliver. £229 for a loco, it has to be perfection. 

[JohnC]

Very surprised that Heljan are keeping to the 8 pin DCC configuration.

I would have thought 21 pin would be the future norm or am I missing something?

[spamcan61]

20 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Very surprised that Heljan are keeping to the 8 pin DCC configuration.

I would have thought 21 pin would be the future norm or am I missing something?

Heljan are stating 21 pin for the standard models, only Gaugemaster are stating 8 pin for their "specials" and we're all hoping that's a mistake in their advert not a design decision.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

2 hours ago, Class 158 productions said:

Thanks for that, very useful. How long till we now see modern 47s creeping out of the woodwork from Bachmann, like with 66 731, really hope these 47s deliver. £229 for a loco, it has to be perfection. 

 

You are more than welcome, and I'm glad that I can be of assistance. 

 

I have to say I did think the same earlier, that Bachmann could roll out some further 47 locomotives at say £160/£170 for standard range models and maybe slightly higher for Limited Editions either regionally or to particular model shops for say £180/£190. Even the latter models at a slightly higher price than models in the standard range they would still be a good £40/£50 most likely below the Heljan versions that we are discussing. Certainly if their are some liveries, numbers and variations that Bachmann either haven't produced yet or haven't produced in a while, their is probably some scope now to produce them, especially seen as though the Bachmann and Heljan 47s are the most detailed, and have the most functionality etc, so they are direct competitors. 

 

42 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Very surprised that Heljan are keeping to the 8 pin DCC configuration.

I would have thought 21 pin would be the future norm or am I missing something?

 

19 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Heljan are stating 21 pin for the standard models, only Gaugemaster are stating 8 pin for their "specials" and we're all hoping that's a mistake in their advert not a design decision.

 

Yes, we are assuming that the adverts on the GaugeMaster website are incorrect regarding the 8 Pin DCC functionality, and instead they should be 21 Pin DCC Ready (both Classes 47 and 86), if as has been said to me today that the latest tooling for both the 47s and 86s is going to be used. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

[Phil Bullock]

Kernow are listing the main range Heljan 47s at £199 .... and with 21 pin Dcc!

[blueeighties]

22 hours ago, wirey33 said:

The £229 price conveniently gives you £199 after the usual 15% discount.

 

I'm sure this is a huge factor in the pricing choice; all hell will break loose when the £200 barrier is broken for an non-sound fitted, non-weathered loco.

 

 

 

 

No it won't....the same was predicted when locos were approaching £100. Folk will always moan, but they will always sell regardless.

[Legend]

24 minutes ago, blueeighties said:

No it won't....the same was predicted when locos were approaching £100. Folk will always moan, but they will always sell regardless.

Regrettably I think you are right . Sometimes we are our own worst enemies 

[Opelsi]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

Regrettably I think you are right . Sometimes we are our own worst enemies 

 

Whilst I appreciate you may be right in this instance (£200 barrier), economics tells us that 'supply and demand' theory operates. The higher the price the less demand and certainly taking to logical conclusion I am sure most would agree if a silly £1000 per unit price (model loco) were applied, then demand would be massively diminished.

Therefore the elasticity of demand forms a curve whereby demand diminishes as cost increases. There is only a certain price the market will bear for any given supply of any product (or model). If the price is toO high for that supply (read production run of given model), then price cuts would be necessary to sell the over supply (for the given initial unit price).

Costs - now that of course is a whole other conversation of course.

Tiresome though some on here are with price discussions, economic facts remain !

[stovepipe]

4 hours ago, blueeighties said:

No it won't....the same was predicted when locos were approaching £100. Folk will always moan, but they will always sell regardless.

 

They will sell, but as we have seen already, in progressively fewer and fewer numbers. I have roughly the same to spend on this hobby each year, it just buys me fewer things now than it once did.

 

[Craig1989]

Kernow are showing it for £195.95