All-new Heljan 47 in 00 gauge

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, Opelsi said:

economic facts remain !

Double economics on thursday afternoons remains an all time low.

 

Elasticity does ring a bell though so I must have jolted awake periodically.

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, stovepipe said:

 

They will sell, but as we have seen already, in progressively fewer and fewer numbers. I have roughly the same to spend on this hobby each year, it just buys me fewer things now than it once did.

 

 

Despite increasing prices and an available budget that has also increased, I find that I am spending less as I keep looking at things and deciding that the price has now exceeded what I am prepared to spend on them. My spend is now focussed much more on the "must haves" rather than, as used to be the case, the "nice to haves".

 

As a result, the hobby is missing out on my "additional spend" which is probably approaching four-figures.

 

IIRC, my spend in this year has been two Hornby terriers,  one 2HAP (assuming it does arrive as planned), concentrating on sound in my current stock and, I think, everything else has been to "new" entrants such as Accurascale and Cavalex.

 

Roy

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, blueeighties said:

No it won't....the same was predicted when locos were approaching £100. Folk will always moan, but they will always sell regardless.

The days of dumping my entire fleet of 47’s on ebay and trading up are over.

Ive 60 odd 47’s, from Lima thru Bachmann.

 

The livery and the number play a big part... thats why I still have Lima & Vitrains still about.

 

I’m not exactly dancing on tables at the numbers / liveries offered so far, If i’m going to buy yet more 47’s.. they need to be ones I dont have.  I think 3 of the dozen or so listed so far are of interest.

i’ll wait and see what they look like before ordering.

 

Fwiw As Heljans set their price, I wouldn't expect Bachmann to keep theirs at its current level, i’m sure it will rise closer to match.

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by adb968008

[w124bob]

Annoyingly all the headcode versions are very close numerically to existing Bachmann models of the same era, so I'll be giving the 47's a miss at the moment. Mind you having seen the news re class 45's and TMC, plus class 25's the wallet won't be quite so stressed (yeah right)

[Phil Bullock]

1 hour ago, w124bob said:

Annoyingly all the headcode versions are very close numerically to existing Bachmann models of the same era, so I'll be giving the 47's a miss at the moment. Mind you having seen the news re class 45's and TMC, plus class 25's the wallet won't be quite so stressed (yeah right)

 Very true! We haven’t had an unrefurbished TTG/ blue pre TOPS NB or Stones boilered loco from the blue box boys.... gap in the market!
 

[dj_crisp]

I think at 200 a locomotive im going to be far less accepting of faults or the usual rubbish lighting.... I'm looking forward to seeing this effort before judging whether its worth it or whether I need to downsize the fleet to fund one.

[pheaton]

6 hours ago, Craig1989 said:

Kernow are showing it for £195.95

Everyone keep moaning...the price is coming down!!!!!

Edited November 10, 2020 by pheaton

[JohnC]

21 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Heljan are stating 21 pin for the standard models, only Gaugemaster are stating 8 pin for their "specials" and we're all hoping that's a mistake in their advert not a design decision.

Thanks for that, thought an 8 pin was yesterday’s technology

John

[shunny]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Thanks for that, thought an 8 pin was yesterday’s technology

John

Not if your Hornby last years brand new class 87 was 8 pin and I predict the new class 91 unfortunately will be the same!

[YesTor]

6 hours ago, dj_crisp said:

I think at 200 a locomotive im going to be far less accepting of faults or the usual rubbish lighting.... I'm looking forward to seeing this effort before judging whether its worth it or whether I need to downsize the fleet to fund one.

 

I'm in a similar camp - whether the price is £200 or £50 is partly academic at this point - the main thing is getting the shape right, so too with the Class 45, 25 etc...   

 

Time will tell...

Edited November 11, 2020 by YesTor

[MGR Hooper!]

5 hours ago, shunny said:

Not if your Hornby last years brand new class 87 was 8 pin and I predict the new class 91 unfortunately will be the same!

It has been listed as 8-pin DCC ready since it was announced....nothing really to predict there 
 

[MGR Hooper!]

6 hours ago, JohnC said:

Thanks for that, thought an 8 pin was yesterday’s technology

John

It's not exactly yesterday's technology, it is old, but it isn't obsolete. 8-pin DCC sockets are still widely used elsewhere.

[wirey33]

On 10/11/2020 at 08:41, blueeighties said:

No it won't....the same was predicted when locos were approaching £100. Folk will always moan, but they will always sell regardless.

 

It did in some quarters and it will again; and that will be amplified by greater internet access/use.

 

Imagine someone coming back into the hobby after ten years, when Lima was the go-to option for class 47 at £50. In 2015 that someone would find the RRP for a Bachmann 47 was £115 giving a street price of £99. Now we have an RRP of £229 and a street price of £199. That kind of change cannot be maintained in an ever narrowing market. 

 

 

[phil-b259]

29 minutes ago, wirey33 said:

 

 

Imagine someone coming back into the hobby after ten years, when Lima was the go-to option for class 47 at £50. In 2015 that someone would find the RRP for a Bachmann 47 was £115 giving a street price of £99. Now we have an RRP of £229 and a street price of £199. That kind of change cannot be maintained in an ever narrowing market. 

 

 

Yes it can

 

We get lots of gripes on here about price and one of the themes is they are excluding a vast number of modellers who are ready and waiting to snap up cheap models if someone makes them.

 

If there really was that bigger market AND models selling for £100 or below could be made while still making money for the manufacturer then do you not think someone would have done so by now?

 

The fact that no company has seen fit to do this is a pretty good yardstick to determine that what you and others want is simply not financially viable. Whinging about it on internet forums is not going to make the accountants or shareholders at Hejan / Bachmann / Hornby say " OK lets incur massive losses and go out of business so people can have cheap toy trains" - because thats the nub of what you are wanting.

 

Most people cannot afford to buy a Ferrari or Rolls Royce - yet both companies are still thriving concerns even after the economic turbulence in the past decade. They could of course lower their prices allowing far more people to purchase their products (just as many armchair model railway manufacturers insist can be done the increased sales compensating for the lower price per car) - but they haven't as doing so would most likely cause big financial woes (Just consider how the likes of GM, Ford, etc are struggling to turn a profit out of the 'mass market' for cars).

 

Yes, its taken as given that the high price of RTR does present some difficulties to new entrants to the hobby and those struggling moneywise, but provided there are enough people willing to buy whatever is released why exactly is that an issue for manufacturers. Model railways are, at the end of the day not an essential item and there is no moral obligation to provide them.

 

[Ouroborus]

14 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

If there really was that bigger market AND models selling for £100 or below could be made while still making money for the manufacturer then do you not think someone would have done so by now?

 

The fact that no company has seen fit to do this is a pretty good yardstick to determine that what you and others want is simply not financially viable. Whinging about it on internet forums is not going to make the accountants or shareholders at Hejan / Bachmann / Hornby say " OK lets incur massive losses and go out of business so people can have cheap toy trains" - because thats the nub of what you are wanting.

 

 

I give you the Hornby 66.   Went up against TWO other manufacturers - sold out.

[No Decorum]

9 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

It's not exactly yesterday's technology, it is old, but it isn't obsolete. 8-pin DCC sockets are still widely used elsewhere.

Yes, 8-pin is fine for steam locos, at least until someone starts supplying them with functioning lamps. When it comes to diesels and electrics with their many lighting options, I’d say it’s obsolete.

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Yes it can

 

Most people cannot afford to buy a Ferrari or Rolls Royce - yet both companies are still thriving concerns even after the economic turbulence in the past decade. They could of course lower their prices allowing far more people to purchase their products (just as many armchair model railway manufacturers insist can be done the increased sales compensating for the lower price per car) - but they haven't as doing so would most likely cause big financial woes (Just consider how the likes of GM, Ford, etc are struggling to turn a profit out of the 'mass market' for cars).

 

@phil-b259 - Forgive me, I'm confused. You are using Ferrari or Rolls Royce as an analogy (fair enough), but why are they good examples? Which manufacturers are you comparing to Ferrari or Rolls Royce? Do you mean Bachmann and Heljan? If so, is that not the very point that @wirey33 made? Their products are wonderful, but too expensive for many people.

 

 

Quote

given that the high price of RTR does present some difficulties to new entrants to the hobby and those struggling moneywise

 

"Some difficulties" is a polite way of putting it.

Perhaps there's a "rich elite" of modellers who sing the praises of these models and can afford to buy them at the (currently) high prices. Maybe they are on "final salary" pensions? It's a mystery to me. Given the (cough) "aging demographics" of those that can afford it, is this not a bubble waiting to burst?

 

Here's one example (of many)

Bachmann Class 166 3-Car DMU

https://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Rolling Stock/model-railway-Bachmann-locomotive-review-class-166.htm

When reviewed: Price Range: £69-£77 inc VAT

Price now? £150-£160 ?

 

Fair play to the manufacturers, if they can creep-up their prices every year by more than the RPI, and maintain sales, I applaud their success. But I've been priced out of the market, and will make do with what I bought 10~15 years ago.

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, Ouroborus said:

I give you the Hornby 66.   Went up against TWO other manufacturers - sold out.

 

On the other hand, I give you Hornby's non-Railroad Class 31, which has been around for about 15 years; RRP for the latest release, 31102 in BR blue, is £175 ! Not far short of Heljan's brand new 47. There is of course no competing OO scale Class 31 available....

 

['CHARD]

5 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

 

 

Here's one example (of many)

Bachmann Class 166 3-Car DMU

https://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Rolling Stock/model-railway-Bachmann-locomotive-review-class-166.htm

When reviewed: Price Range: £69-£77 inc VAT

Price now? £150-£160 ?

 

 

 

When reviewed: 1999.  21 years ago.

 

I quote the reviewer:  

 

The set can be upgraded to DCC, but with 3 cars the use of function-only decoders (or some form of cable interlink) would be necessary in order to retain the directional light functionality. As the 3 cars form something of a permanent set it doesn't seem unreasonable to consider joining the cars rather than going to the expense of function-only decoders.

 

And lo and behold, such technology, with huge advances in lighting and sound functions is now fitted to the counterpart Class 159 3-car unit released nearly a year ago.  

 

21 years of inflation and technological upgrading.  I checked an RPI calculator, and that gives a £75 product in 1999 an equivalent price of £136 today.  The 159 I mentioned is available at £269.50 from Rails of Sheffield.  Not only has it got the 'cable interlink' (through-wiring via electrical couplers), it also has a low-profile drive-train, such that the saloon detail isn't compromised, a myriad of separately fitted detail parts, detailed interiors including luggage stacks and painted features...  I could go on.  But what's obvious is that there's no realistic comparison between the Network Turbo of last millennium and the filigree trains demanded by the 21st century modeller.

[spamcan61]

1 minute ago, 'CHARD said:

But what's obvious is that there's no realistic comparison between the Network Turbo of last millennium and the filigree trains demanded by the 21st century modeller.

Some 21st century modellers , we don't all (literally) buy into the ever upwards fine detail / price spiral. 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

@phil-b259 - Forgive me, I'm confused. You are using Ferrari or Rolls Royce as an analogy (fair enough), but why are they good examples? Which manufacturers are you comparing to Ferrari or Rolls Royce? Do you mean Bachmann and Heljan? If so, is that not the very point that @wirey33 made?

 

 

The analogy works like this.

 

Ferrari or Rolls Royce do not produce anything like the same amount of vehicles per year as the VW group or Ford do, in other words they are catering for something of a niche market that only has a finite room for expansion

 

If you take a look at the toy market (yes I use that word deliberately as that is what ALL shareholders, city investors, banks, etc would consider model railways to be) the model railway stuff is relatively niche and has far fewer potential customers (regardless of price) than building blocks, computer consoles, dolls, etc.

 

Thus I am comparing ALL model manufacturers to Ferrari / Rolls Royce - not on their products they make as such, but on the basis of maximum sales potential from the current market in which they operate.

 

Granted there is a flaw in that Ferrari / Rolls Royce could in theory expand their customer base by moving into the mass market car area - but as highlighted before economic experts say there is far too much manufacturing capacity in the sector already with many car makers struggling financially. As such a move away from the nice which Ferrari / Rolls Royce operate in is fraught with risk and could well bring down the whole company - where as sticking with what they do now is a far better strategy for investors.

 

There are similar risks for Hornby (which HAS done that sort of diversification in the past and suffered badly as a result), Bachmann, Heljan, etc in moving away from their current strategy of focusing on RTR model railways.

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by phil-b259

['CHARD]

1 minute ago, spamcan61 said:

Some 21st century modellers , we don't all (literally) buy into the ever upwards fine detail / price spiral. 

 

Agreed/ noted.  But seriously, what were manufacturers to make of Hornby's 'Design Clever' approach, which rather rapidly unravelled into an own goal?  A confused product range, which to this day contains price/ detail contradictions - witness the amount of uncertainty/ lack of clarity amongst buyers when HST train packs are announced....

 

If the manufacturers instead targeted the potential customer who wanted detail to stand still, what would happen when tooling for a popular item is worn out?   New items would still increase in price to amortize the new tooling for no discernible benefit to the buyer, while alienating the sizeable contingent who understandably expect technology not to stand still.  Which begs the question: in what equivalent hobby/ pastime do practitioners expect no innovation?

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

"Some difficulties" is a polite way of putting it.

Perhaps there's a "rich elite" of modellers who sing the praises of these models and can afford to buy them at the (currently) high prices. Maybe they are on "final salary" pensions? It's a mystery to me. Given the (cough) "aging demographics" of those that can afford it, is this not a bubble waiting to burst?

 

Here's one example (of many)

Bachmann Class 166 3-Car DMU

https://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Rolling Stock/model-railway-Bachmann-locomotive-review-class-166.htm

When reviewed: Price Range: £69-£77 inc VAT

Price now? £150-£160 ?

 

Fair play to the manufacturers, if they can creep-up their prices every year by more than the RPI, and maintain sales, I applaud their success. But I've been priced out of the market, and will make do with what I bought 10~15 years ago.

 

Life stinks sometimes - get used to it!

 

I'm not a pensioner yet but under no illusions that the retirement age will likely be 70 plus by the time I get there and the chances of my Railway Pension scheme remaining unchanged is slim. Consequently its highly likely my spending on discretionary items like model railways will take a hit.

 

As has been explained MANY MANY TIMES, costs - notably labour costs have been increasing for many years and no company can afford to continue to market things at a loss and survive.  Given the products are made overseas the RPI for the UK is meaningless - the figure you really need to make an accurate assessment of prices is the RPI of the Peoples Republic of China!

 

If their RPI figures say that the cost of living has gone up by 5% in two years then thats going to mean wages have gone up by 5% in 2 years, which means factory costs have gone up by 5% in 2 years which means factories charge manufacturers at least 5% more.....etc

 

Chinese companies / workers are not going to turn around and say "Even though our cost of living has gone up we will make ourselves poorer so UK citizens can afford to buy our products" are they? No Chinese worker / company is going to face personal financial hardship just so pensioners in the UK can continue to by class 47 locos are they- yet THAT is precisely what all those moaning about prices are effectively asking to happen!

 

Manufacturers are thus obliged to pay more for their products which leaves them making a loss - unless they can come up with a strategy to lower costs (moving production to another low wage country) or massively increase the numbers ordered to bring the unit cost down and still make a profit, they are forced to raise prices.

 

Yes is really is that simple! No grand plan to 'do over' the UK model railway community or excess profiteering - just plain old economics and financial responsibility in action and I really wish railway modellers would understand that!

 

Yes if your market is large enough (and supermarkets are masters at this) you can sell some stuff at below cost price safe in the knowledge that 99% of people will also buy other products which recoup that loss many times over*. The problem quite simply is the size and nature of the model railway market isn't big enough for that technique.

 

Its a FACT that reducing prices to the levels seen in the 2000 - 2010 decade will mean massive losses for manufacturers while the opportunity to grow the market to compensate simply isn't there regardless of what some in the modelling community say!

 

No bank, shareholder, etc is going to bankroll a manufacturer for decades in the hope that offering cheap class 47s is somehow going to massively grow the market for model railway and allow economies of scale / better bargaining with factories to take place - yet thats the unspoken truth of what most are indicating they want to happen.

 

 

* The best example was when supermarkets decided to start selling petrol. They did so at below cost price causing immense harm to independent petrol retailers / franchises but it was financially worthwhile for the supermarket as most of those calling in for fuel also went shopping in the adjacent store, buying a fair amount of stuff they never intended to buy in the process. Once supermarkets had achieved a sizeable market share, prices then started going up and now not much different to other fuel forecourts.

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by phil-b259

[Hal Nail]

25 minutes ago, 'CHARD said:

Which begs the question: in what equivalent hobby/ pastime do practitioners expect no innovation?

 

Supporting West Brom.

 

 

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, Ouroborus said:

I give you the Hornby 66.   Went up against TWO other manufacturers - sold out.

I remember thinking that Hornby’s acquisition of out-of-date Lima tooling was money wasted. Many years later and in unforeseen circumstances, it has turned out to be a very good investment indeed and Hornby has been very clever in exploiting it. Improved mechanisms, superb decoration and offered at just the right time when competitors are offering newly tooled, high-spec models at high prices and interest is high.