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All-new Heljan 47 in 00 gauge


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1 hour ago, rob D2 said:

I’m with you on that .

I was all for the “ why they putting out that rubbish “ , thinking .

 

however it seems it is the new Lima - due to modern companies continually respraying the real thing , little Johnny can get a replica for £65-75 .

 

he doesn’t care , that the detail is awful and the running indifferent 

 

Its all relative isn't it.  Detail is certainly less  than Hattons/ Bachmann/ Heljan . No question . However these models still look like 66s , 156s and 47s . The running with new Hornby chassis is actually very smooth not at all indifferent.

 

But what this shows is that there is a market for high spec locos . Some people do want all the detail at whatever price . Thats why you have locos at £220.  But there is also a market thats perfectly happy with Limby at that price point. 

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2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I've talked to more than one manufacturer who says the labour cost is the biggest share of the manufacturing price. All our models are hand built, and we keep demanding more and more fiddly bits be attached.

Probably one for a different thread but is there a market there if manufacturers supplied their models as a kit of parts for the buyers to assemble at a lower price? I don't think I am alone in one of the first things I do is dismantle a loco to fit detailing/weathering so I would much rather pay £459 for a Heljan 37 in bits than £509 for one that is complete that I need to dismantle. 

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6 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Then how exactly is the factory going to find the extra cash to pay the workers if it doesn't raise prices to compensate?

 

I am under no illusions that the excellent pay deals the RMT have obtained for me and other rail workers have come at the cost of higher ticket prices.

 

Similarly if staff in the NHS get a well deserved pay rise then taxes we pay will have to go up by at least the same amount to compensate.

 

Its typical Conservative party nonsense to assume that you can magic up money from reorganisations / efficiencies / outsourcing or any of the other strategies they have pushed over the years. For the most part increases in staff costs have to be met by the customer paying more, particularly where the main cost is people and if they don't people suffer. Its why we have cleaners struggling to get by on minimum wage / zero hours contracts because the 'outsourcing specialists' who have been awarded these contracts have no other way of saving cash than making their staff take the hit.

 

You don't get something from nothing and if your workers want a big pay rise then you have to charge your customers more. Granted an increase in raw materials or energy costs will do the same but in a labour intensive industry (which model trains most definitely are thanks to all that separately fitted super detail modellers demand) its staff costs that dominate.

 

Tooling, although significant is actually minor in the overall scheme of things when it comes to model railways. The biggest cost associated with that is actually in the CAD design (which involves paying people) that creates the tooling. With CNC machining and suchlike the actual business of cutting metal is not that costly by comparison. The reason it is a significant part of the process is more down to the fact that once the tooling has been made, any alterations are awkward to do plus it takes up space (unlike a CAD file) may only fit a certain type of machine, etc.

 

The other thing to remember is that tooling up for a model is a one off cost - and these days most manufacturers have a policy of recouping that in the first run of models. If tooling was such a critical component and staffing costs trivial then we would see the opportunity for lower prices on later runs. If however the biggest costs are by far staffing ones - principally associated with assembly then prices will stay high to cover this cost

 

 

 

Phil, I think there's basic agreement that if costs go up of course they get passed on . It just a matter of percentages . If the item has 50% material costs and labour goes up 5% then that means , costs should go up 2.5% not 5% . If you consider that's the cost  ex factory , then there's the commissioners margin (Heljan in this case) then the retailers margin , so in fact a 5% increase in labor probably results in 1% increase in the final price .    We don't know the relative percentages , of course, I'd really love to see that.   But at the end of the day Gaugemaster/ Heljan are pricing the 47 at £220 because they think that's what people will pay for the quantity they are producing .  I suspect the actual cost of production has very little to do with it

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19 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Then how exactly is the factory going to find the extra cash to pay the workers if it doesn't raise prices to compensate?

 

 

The other thing to remember is that tooling up for a model is a one off cost - and these days most manufacturers have a policy of recouping that in the first run of models. If tooling was such a critical component and staffing costs trivial then we would see the opportunity for lower prices on later runs. If however the biggest costs are by far staffing ones - principally associated with assembly then prices will stay high to cover this cost

 

 

Because, as I said, labour costs are not the only costs in manufacturing, even if the NRE doesn't dominate then it still has to be recouped ( say 200K USD across 20K item sales is still 10 USD per item) raw material costs,  utility costs for running the factory, depreciation of machinery etc. etc. 

 

Why would the manufacturer lower the price on later runs, if they can still sell  sufficient volumes at original or close to original price? The manufacturing costs sets the minimum profitable price, not the maximum: the market shall prevail.

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Fantastic to see this thread descend into political cheap shots which is starting to creep into this forum as a whole over the past few weeks...leave your political bias crap out of it & talk about the product!

Edited by classy52
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55 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Its all relative isn't it.  Detail is certainly less  than Hattons/ Bachmann/ Heljan . No question . However these models still look like 66s , 156s and 47s . The running with new Hornby chassis is actually very smooth not at all indifferent.

 

But what this shows is that there is a market for high spec locos . Some people do want all the detail at whatever price . Thats why you have locos at £220.  But there is also a market thats perfectly happy with Limby at that price point. 

This I think sums the reality up very well. The Class 47 has now been modelled across several ranges to several specifications - a real market choice exists.
Heljan are proposing a new offer in this market - they are taking the risk, because their pitch is to offer the highest spec model at what looks like the highest price. 
If they get it wrong, they 'own' the hazard - but if they do produce 'the best' model (allowing for the subjectivity of this judgement) a situation will exist where we as consumers pay our money and make a choice. To that extent, I can understand a viewpoint of 'wow - that's a lot of money - I will expect it to be good for that price'. But I don't really have time for anyone deciding on Heljan's behalf that it 'should' be cheaper because from their armchair they have decided that they know the inputs and outputs of the market better than Heljan themselves.

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16 minutes ago, classy52 said:

Fantastic to see this thread descend into political cheap shots which is starting to creep into this forum as a whole over the past few weeks...leave your political bias crap out of it & talk about the product!

 

The descent into politics and economics might be avoided if people didn't continually "bang on" about the price of the product.  We can but hope...

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8 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

The descent into politics and economics might be avoided if people didn't continually "bang on" about the price of the product.  We can but hope...

 

People will always talk about price especially at junctures where there is a considerable leap from what you pay today and what you pay tomorrow thus you can wrap the economics around that which is fine (I find everyone's opinions on that quite interesting) but please keep your political bias out of it because it has no place in a model railway thread or forum.

Edited by classy52
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1 hour ago, Legend said:

If the item has 50% material costs and labour goes up 5% then that means , costs should go up 2.5% not 5% . If you consider that's the cost  ex factory , then there's the commissioners margin (Heljan in this case) then the retailers margin , so in fact a 5% increase in labor probably results in 1% increase in the final price

 

I somehow think the factory cost split isn't 50/50 though, but anyway... In general, each step's margin is applied as a percentage, so a 5% rise in manufacturing cost will pretty much end up as a 5% increase in sale price.  Anything else basically has a step of the chain shouldering the increased costs in favour of the next which is a damn good way to reduce profitability.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, classy52 said:

 

People will always talk about price especially at junctures where there is a considerable leap from what you pay today and what you pay tomorrow thus you can wrap the economics around that which is fine (I find everyone's opinions on that quite interesting) but please keep your political bias out of it because it has no place in a model railway thread or forum.

 

Politics only comes into it because most of those whinging about price seem to have bought the idea that you can have ever lower (or static prices) but better quality!

 

That idea has at the forefront of political thinking (of virtually all parties) not to mention business generally for decades and is the root of much of the woes - poverty, inequality, pollution, etc the world suffers from today. Be it pay for NHS staff, the condition of roads, UK generated plastic waste being dumped on developing countries - the root of it all is the unwillingness to pay the true cost of items / services we use.

 

So while I accept that 'politics' in itself is completely unrelated to the Heljan class 47 model itself (i.e. build quality, preferred liveries, numbers, etc) it becomes relevant the moment people start popping up whinging about the price Bachmann charge for it.

 

In a measure many be happy about, this will remain my last past on the subject providing we don't get any more gripes about price! It is what it is - if its too expensive go and start another thread to talk about it!

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4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Politics only comes into it because most of those whinging about price seem to have bought the idea that you can have ever lower (or static prices) but better quality!

 

That idea has at the forefront of political thinking (of virtually all parties) not to mention business generally for decades and is the root of much of the woes - poverty, inequality, pollution, etc the world suffers from today. Be it pay for NHS staff, the condition of roads, UK generated plastic waste being dumped on developing countries - the root of it all is the unwillingness to pay the true cost of items / services we use.

 

So while I accept that 'politics' in itself is completely unrelated to the Heljan class 47 model itself (i.e. build quality, preferred liveries, numbers, etc) it becomes relevant the moment people start popping up whinging about the price Bachmann charge for it.

 

In a measure many be happy about, this will remain my last past on the subject providing we don't get any more gripes about price! It is what it is - if its too expensive go and start another thread to talk about it!

 

Your own political beliefs don't need to come into it though because if we all did that it would be open season as everyone has a different opinion on who is to blame politically for price rises or why someone isn't getting paid enough and then the thread will end up getting locked.

I'm just saying a discussion around prices will always come up and yes discuss the reasons why but keep political blame out of it which I'm sure can be done, I'm just seeing more snipes in these threads aimed political heads or parties and personally hate to see that creep into model railway discussions.

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52 minutes ago, GRUNFOS said:

Just to remind us all its a class 47. Its blue but it has no particular political allegiance!

 

 

 

 

47a.jpg


The last Heljan 47 leaned left, some leaned right, but many expanded through the middle. All of them attacked the yellow ends though.

 

:rolleyes:


What I really want though is more large logo Blue Scottish 47/4’s. Particularly Eastfield Scottie dog 47’s, 47593 would be jackpot, aside the ScR, 47580 not far behind on my wish list.

Failing that give me an unnamed one and i’ll do it myself.

 

I dont care who makes it, so far i’m still running 47635 Jimmy Milne by Lima... The best starting point, 31-660 47436 is like gold dust.  Plain blue, Plain green 47’s.. much of a muchness, made many times before.

 

Edited by adb968008
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Does anyone know if ModelRail are going ahead with a limited edition EWS 47? They were seeking expressions of interest a few months ago.

 

I would have thought the popular EWS livery would be better suited in the main range. Bachmann's only EWS example was also a (now hard to find) limited edition.

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45 minutes ago, adb968008 said:


The last Heljan 47 leaned left, some leaned right, but many expanded through the middle. All of them attacked the yellow ends though.

 

:rolleyes:


What I really want though is more large logo Blue Scottish 47/4’s. Particularly Eastfield Scottie dog 47’s, 47593 would be jackpot, aside the ScR, 47580 not far behind on my wish list.

Failing that give me an unnamed one and i’ll do it myself.

 

I dont care who makes it, so far i’m still running 47635 Jimmy Milne by Lima... The best starting point, 31-660 47436 is like gold dust.  Plain blue, Plain green 47’s.. much of a muchness, made many times before.

 

Agree with you about the need for Eastfield and Inverness 47/4s in LL. travelling by train in the mid 1980s they always looked great with West Highland White Terriers or Highland Stags, nameplates and snowploughs. The Stratford batch, 47580 to 585 were elusive for me but I did see 47580 at Stirling  and 47583 (in NSE) at Carlisle. 
I bought a very nice Bachmann 47593 reworked by ABC Workshops, lightly weathered. I just had to move the snowploughs from the bogie to beneath the buffer beam and fit sound. 
Very keen to see the forthcoming Heljan 47 but I will be keeping my Bachmann ones.

 

John

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1 hour ago, scottrains29 said:

Does anyone know if ModelRail are going ahead with a limited edition EWS 47? They were seeking expressions of interest a few months ago.

 

I would have thought the popular EWS livery would be better suited in the main range. Bachmann's only EWS example was also a (now hard to find) limited edition.

Bachmann still sell an EWS 47,it is,47778, Duke of Edinburgh's Award, ref 32-817K. It is a Bachmann collector's club model and should still be available to club members.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, rembrow said:

Bachmann still sell an EWS 47,it is,47778, Duke of Edinburgh's Award, ref 32-817K. It is a Bachmann collector's club model and should still be available to club members.

 

 

Vitrains EWS 47 pops up regularly on ebay.

As side of self fitting the bits, its a very credible model.

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I totally accept the various arguments over costs and I’m in no way suggesting Heljan should charge less because at the end of the day it’s their business. 
 

However, the point I made earlier was why does it cost Heljan so much more to produce what is in effect an inferior product compared to Accurascale?
 

Heljan release model after model that has significant visual errors (I’m talking noticeable differences in shape that can be spotted by the less knowledgeable like my myself!) and despite these being pointed out by those more knowledgeable than myself they plough on regardless and are still present in the production models.

 

In contrast Accurascale, I realise that they’ve not released a locomotive yet, have pushed the boundaries of accuracy and you can see that in the various threads - there’s no real gripes around shape or detail.

 

So if Accurascale can offer this accuracy for a more reasonable price why can’t Heljan?
 

If, as has been said, the bulk of the cost is staff, which I don’t disagree with, I’d say Heljan could do with replacing their CAD team with some who are little more competent at producing an accurate product to start with. 
 

It’s the difference in price vs quality of product produced that makes me annoyed rather than the actual cost of models going up.

 

Accurascale, lower price accurate model

vs

Heljan, high price accuracy issues

 

If I could be confident in Heljan producing the goods for once I’d happily pre order 11 of the 15 or so announced so far - unfortunately I don’t believe they will and my annoyance is not so much in the price but the fact that they may effectively scupper the chances of a better Class 47 by releasing theirs.

 

Although at risk of repeating myself, I do hope with Heljan going so high on the price, it does leave a window of opportunity for a decent model priced around the £170 mark (as the Accurascale 37 is).

 

For me it is definitely the quality - I don’t mind paying the higher price if the quality is there to back it up and unfortunately Heljan’s track record doesn’t back it up! 

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57 minutes ago, Global said:

why does it cost Heljan so much more to produce what is in effect an inferior product compared to Accurascale?
 

Heljan release model after model that has significant visual errors 

 

In contrast Accurascale, I realise that they’ve not released a locomotive yet, have pushed the boundaries of accuracy and you can see that in the various threads - there’s no real gripes around shape or detail.

 

Heljan could do with replacing their CAD team with some who are little more competent at producing an accurate product to start with. 

 

 

 

Something that doesn't yet exist pushes the bounds of accuracy.  The competition (only they're not actually in direct competition here) should sack its Design Team.

 

Comedy Gold.

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1 hour ago, Global said:

I totally accept the various arguments over costs and I’m in no way suggesting Heljan should charge less because at the end of the day it’s their business. 
 

However, the point I made earlier was why does it cost Heljan so much more to produce what is in effect an inferior product compared to Accurascale?
 

Heljan release model after model that has significant visual errors (I’m talking noticeable differences in shape that can be spotted by the less knowledgeable like my myself!) and despite these being pointed out by those more knowledgeable than myself they plough on regardless and are still present in the production models.

 

If, as has been said, the bulk of the cost is staff, which I don’t disagree with, I’d say Heljan could do with replacing their CAD team with some who are little more competent at producing an accurate product to start with. 
 

 

 

1 - We don't know (and we're not going to find out) what Heljan's or Accurascale's cost bases or business models are.

 

2 - Well Heljan keep releasing these models and they're still in business, and still producing new models, so that suggests they have a reasonably successful business model.

 

3 - Any design team can only work with the information he/she/they are given, and doubtless are working to a timescale and a budget; as for replacing them, you are 'Electric Nose' and I claim my 5 pounds lol.

 

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21 hours ago, adb968008 said:


The last Heljan 47 leaned left, some leaned right, but many expanded through the middle. All of them attacked the yellow ends though.

 

:rolleyes:


What I really want though is more large logo Blue Scottish 47/4’s. Particularly Eastfield Scottie dog 47’s, 47593 would be jackpot, aside the ScR, 47580 not far behind on my wish list.

Failing that give me an unnamed one and i’ll do it myself.

 

I dont care who makes it, so far i’m still running 47635 Jimmy Milne by Lima... The best starting point, 31-660 47436 is like gold dust.  Plain blue, Plain green 47’s.. much of a muchness, made many times before.

 


Isn’t Bachmann’s 47444 a better starting point for 47593? 47593 has lost its underframe tanks, as per 47444, whereas Bachmann’s 47436 still has them fitted. Or perhaps changing the tanks is easier for you than removing the nameplate?

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35 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:


Isn’t Bachmann’s 47444 a better starting point for 47593? 47593 has lost its underframe tanks, as per 47444, whereas Bachmann’s 47436 still has them fitted. Or perhaps changing the tanks is easier for you than removing the nameplate?

Ive done it all, I have a collection of chassis to swap, and spare tanks.

Bachmann nameplates come off with a cocktail stick and a pencil eraser.

 

Not all Bachmanns l/l 47s are candidates either.. at least one has different cabs.. thats not as easy to change.

 

but its hypothetical as Its out of stock anyway... which comes to my point... theres a reason its out of stock...its the livery.

 

Edited by adb968008
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