All-new Heljan 47 in 00 gauge

[Neil]

On 12/11/2020 at 12:27, phil-b259 said:

 

.... You don't get something from nothing and if your workers want a big pay rise then you have to charge your customers more. Granted an increase in raw materials or energy costs will do the same ....

 

 

 

Costs of raw materials and energy costs also boil down to wages for those extracting/processing/transporting the raw materials and the profits extracted  by shareholders; similarly for energy production.

[Pillar]

2 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

 

 

Something that doesn't yet exist pushes the bounds of accuracy.

 

Accurascale's CAD work for the Class 37 and 55 has been around for a while now, along with pre-production models of the latter. Neither seems to have attracted significant criticism, and when minor errors have been pointed out they have been noted and corrected.

 

Heljan’s CAD work has also appeared long before the models themselves, but the errors pointed out never seem to be corrected in the finished product.

 

I know which approach I prefer.

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Pillar

[Global]

2 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

 

 

Something that doesn't yet exist pushes the bounds of accuracy.  The competition (only they're not actually in direct competition here) should sack its Design Team.

 

Comedy Gold.

To be fair though it doesn’t matter whether they’ve produced them yet or not - the fact is that Heljan CADS quite often appear wrong so comparing like for like with Accurascale they’re pretty shoddy in comparison.

 

You just don’t get the same on Accurascale threads. And whilst they’ve not released a loco yet, the wagons they’ve produced have been very well received so I believe that quality will run through into the locos. You only have to read the threads to see these guys really care about what they put out. 

 

So there are issues with Heljans design team and their research whether you want to agree with that or not, otherwise the catalogue of errors wouldn’t keep occurring. 

 

Nearly every thread I read about a Heljan product includes references about errors in the the look of the models - the 25, the 45, the O gauge 47, the first 86, the first 33, the list goes on. 

All I’m saying is if they want to charge the big bucks then the quality should be there to justify it. 
 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Global
Spelling correction

[Global]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

 

1 - We don't know (and we're not going to find out) what Heljan's or Accurascale's cost bases or business models are.

 

2 - Well Heljan keep releasing these models and they're still in business, and still producing new models, so that suggests they have a reasonably successful business model.

 

3 - Any design team can only work with the information he/she/they are given, and doubtless are working to a timescale and a budget; as for replacing them, you are 'Electric Nose' and I claim my 5 pounds lol.

 

1) True - I wasn’t expecting that! But clearly the differences are stark when you compare cost vs quality! 
 

2) Agree - I didn’t suggest otherwise, clearly there are enough people who don’t care if it’s fully accurate and they’re quite within their rights to purchase them! If I’m in the minority who expects them to at least get the major features looking right then so be it.

But having only got back into model railways during lockdown I was considering both 25s and 45s and was definitely up for lots of 47s! But if they don’t care enough to get them right I’ll stick with the Bachmann ones I have for now. That’s not throwing teddies out, that’s just weighing up the value or otherwise of what I purchase - in much the same way Heljan obviously weigh up whether it’s worth putting the effort in to get it right vs any potential loss of sales because they haven’t. 
 

3) To an extent yes, but I’d have thought any self respecting business would want to produce the best product they can. Whether that’s the design team at fault or wider departments within Heljan, but something clearly doesn’t work for these issues to keep recurring or they simply don’t care?! Quite within their rights to not care and as long as enough people buying them don’t care either they’ll still make money!
 

And sorry but I don’t even know what the last bit means? 
 

[spamcan61]

11 minutes ago, Global said:

 

3) To an extent yes, but I’d have thought any self respecting business would want to produce the best product they can. 
 

And sorry but I don’t even know what the last bit means? 
 

Businesses that want to stay in business are trying to make the most profitable product, which is not necessarily the 'best' in terms of detail or fidelity to prototype. Mind you working out where that 'sweet spot' is in terms of 'quality' versus profitability must be no fun at all, glad it's not my money. 

 

yeah sorry, the  rather obscure 'Electric Nose' reference was harking back to the D&E modelers Yahoo group 15 years ago ish where a guy with that username wanted the Heljan design department sacked due to the 'peaked cap' look of the Western.

 

Oh and agree that the Accurascale products are potentially (at this point) much better value than the Heljan in many respects.

Edited November 13, 2020 by spamcan61

[Global]

36 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Businesses that want to stay in business are trying to make the most profitable product, which is not necessarily the 'best' in terms of detail or fidelity to prototype. Mind you working out where that 'sweet spot' is in terms of 'quality' versus profitability must be no fun at all, glad it's not my money. 

 

yeah sorry, the  rather obscure 'Electric Nose' reference was harking back to the D&E modelers Yahoo group 15 years ago ish where a guy with that username wanted the Heljan design department sacked due to the 'peaked cap' look of the Western.

 

Oh and agree that the Accurascale products are potentially (at this point) much better value than the Heljan in many respects.

Again I do agree with you! And everyones view on quality will be different, however getting the fundamental shapes right at the beginning should be a given I think. 

 

I’m really not a rivet counter and couldn’t tell you anything about whether the boiler was right or the right number of rivets are around the exhaust port, but for me at least if the dome is the wrong shape, the windscreens have the wrong angle or the cab door is clearly too short - and these can be found online by an amateur such as myself, then these things in my view are almost inexcusable.

 

Aghh I see ! No that’s not me! Lol.

 

I’m not really calling for them to be sacked but surely someone somewhere must see there is an issue for it to be happening so many times?

 

And getting things right shouldn’t really be costing them anymore than getting it wrong! If they actually had a more robust process in place to start with they may get it right first time and not have to revisit things a second time, with all the associated additional costs I expect were incurred, as they have done with at least the 33 and the 86. 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Global

[No Decorum]

The points above are fairly made. Heljan has a history of being more expensive than the market leaders yet being less well detailed. On the other hand, they are superb runners. In addition to this, not everything is a 25 or 47. If you want a Gresley O2 for example, Heljan is your only choice.

 

However, Ben Jones is now UK rep. It looks to me very much as if he’s trying to straighten Heljan out. Let’s see how the new stuff looks.

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, No Decorum said:

 Heljan has a history of being more expensive than the market leaders yet being less well detailed.

I would challenge that assumption some what !

If you look around various sites, you’ll find plenty of locos around the £100-130 mark.. O2’s are less than £100.

 

Certainly Heljan UK are much cheaper than their HO counterparts.

 

[No Decorum]

40 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I would challenge that assumption some what !

If you look around various sites, you’ll find plenty of locos around the £100-130 mark.. O2’s are less than £100.

 

Certainly Heljan UK are much cheaper than their HO counterparts.

 

A history. The market leaders have well and truly caught up!

[DY444]

As ever the market will decide.  Any manufacturer that consistently produces models that don't sell won't remain as a manufacturer very long.  Heljan has been producing locomotives for the UK market for about 20 years and is still going so clearly enough people are satisfied by their products to make producing them a viable enterprise.

 

The truth is that not everybody looks at every model the same way.  In my case something has to really jump out and smack me in the face before I take notice although having said that I am peculiarly allergic to windscreen frame rivets the scale size of half a cricket ball.  So the peaked cap on the Western, the (apparently) wrong roof shape on the early 33s and even the "tubby duff" didn't bother me at all. 

 

I look at the new 25 (now the cricket balls have gone from the windscreen frame) and I think it looks like a 25 to me.  I'd have one.  Ditto the 45, looks ok to me.  However the very first picture I saw of the 86 and, before I'd read a single word about it, I thought that pan looks like it is sitting too high.  I even checked pictures of the prototype and was surprised to see it did sit higher than I'd remembered but not as high as on the model.  My rule of thumb therefore is that if I even think it doesn't look right then it must be bad because most of the things discussed to death as faults don't bother me at all.

 

Also, I'm sure manufacturers have good reasons for publishing images of EPs but there is a point in the development life cycle where changing fundamental characteristics such as the body contours is not a viable proposition and those who are bothered by such things then complain that their observations on any deficiencies are being ignored. 

 

Finally a pet gripe.  "There is no excuse for getting it wrong".  Yes there is.  It's very difficult and expensive to accurately capture complex shapes and details and scale them down where fractions of a millimetre can alter the perception of what it looks like.  Aside from complaints about model fidelity, the other biggest complaint is about cost.  Well shock news just in:  if you want manufacturers to expend more time, effort and money on honing things like body contour subtleties then the selling price will go up.  You pays your money and takes your choice, or if you like, the market will decide.  Which is where I came in.

Edited November 14, 2020 by DY444

[Global]

2 hours ago, DY444 said:

As ever the market will decide.  Any manufacturer that consistently produces models that don't sell won't remain as a manufacturer very long.  Heljan has been producing locomotives for the UK market for about 20 years and is still going so clearly enough people are satisfied by their products to make producing them a viable enterprise.

 

The truth is that not everybody looks at every model the same way.  In my case something has to really jump out and smack me in the face before I take notice although having said that I am peculiarly allergic to windscreen frame rivets the scale size of half a cricket ball.  So the peaked cap on the Western, the (apparently) wrong roof shape on the early 33s and even the "tubby duff" didn't bother me at all. 

 

I look at the new 25 (now the cricket balls have gone from the windscreen frame) and I think it looks like a 25 to me.  I'd have one.  Ditto the 45, looks ok to me.  However the very first picture I saw of the 86 and, before I'd read a single word about it, I thought that pan looks like it is sitting too high.  I even checked pictures of the prototype and was surprised to see it did sit higher than I'd remembered but not as high as on the model.  My rule of thumb therefore is that if I even think it doesn't look right then it must be bad because most of the things discussed to death as faults don't bother me at all.

 

Also, I'm sure manufacturers have good reasons for publishing images of EPs but there is a point in the development life cycle where changing fundamental characteristics such as the body contours is not a viable proposition and those who are bothered by such things then complain that their observations on any deficiencies are being ignored. 

 

Finally a pet gripe.  "There is no excuse for getting it wrong".  Yes there is.  It's very difficult and expensive to accurately capture complex shapes and details and scale them down where fractions of a millimetre can alter the perception of what it looks like.  Aside from complaints about model fidelity, the other biggest complaint is about cost.  Well shock news just in:  if you want manufacturers to expend more time, effort and money on honing things like body contour subtleties then the selling price will go up.  You pays your money and takes your choice, or if you like, the market will decide.  Which is where I came in.

In terms of releasing EPs and it not being viable to change at that point, I’m sure you’re probably correct and therefore the observations about deficiencies do go ignored. 
 

However my point is that why are they are even allowing them to go out like that in the first place? Accurascale seems to be the only manufacturer getting that process right and not releasing anything until they themselves are happy with it.

 

And sorry but I disagree on your last point - there is no excuse for getting it wrong. Not producing something that is accurate to save cost is making a choice to do so. 
 

And are saying for Heljan to get it right they’d have to charge even more? Heljan are one of the most expensive in terms of rrp as it is and also seem to be the worst when it comes to these types of errors.

 

If another company can strive to get it right, offering a high specification and accurate model around 25% cheaper than Heljan then that says to me that Heljan are either very inefficient or making a huge markup, both of which I realise they’re clearly entitled to do as it’s their business but still leaves me intrigued as to why. 

 

And can you explain to me how it saves cost to release a model that was clearly wrong and then to retool it several years later to correct those errors? Surely it would save money to spend a small amount of extra time getting it right the first time? They clearly thought it needed doing as otherwise why bother if enough people were buying the dodgy shaped ones?! 

 

At the end of day everyone will have a entirely different view on what they view as acceptable and whether or not they will purchase. And Heljan will make there own mind up as to whether or not their business case is working.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Global

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Global said:

 

And are saying for Heljan to get it right they’d have to charge even more? Heljan are one of the most expensive in terms of rrp as it is and also seem to be the worst when it comes to these types of errors.

 

If another company can strive to get it right, offering a high specification and accurate model around 25% cheaper than Heljan then that says to me that Heljan are either very inefficient or making a huge markup, both of which I realise they’re clearly entitled to do as it’s their business but still leaves me intrigued as to why. 

 

Could you educate me on that with some historical examples...

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by adb968008

[Class 158 productions]

36 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Could you educate me on that with some historical examples...

 

 

 

 

The dock tanks, quite a lot for what they are, especially when compared to something like the Peckett in rrp terms. I’d say that the 47s were more expensive than their Bachmann counterparts but were often heavily reduced to sub £40 back in the day. I do think the point stands that Heljan are expensive, but do often make errors. Although recently, they have been on top form. 

[JSpencer]

Amazing. Gaugemaster announces 6 versions for them yesterday and not a single post here (unless its buried in a small corner of the price vs inaccuracy debate somewhere).

 

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/news/article/view/id/292/

[3rd Rail Exile]

 

6 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

Amazing. Gaugemaster announces 6 versions for them yesterday and not a single post here (unless its buried in a small corner of the price vs inaccuracy debate somewhere).

 

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/news/article/view/id/292/

It's on Page 8, and is what sparked off this particular bout of "price vs inaccuracy"...

 

On 08/11/2020 at 17:10, shunny said:

Gaugemaster have announced several new exclusive models as part of their Gaugemaster collection range

 https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/model-railways/gm-collection-brand5.html?scale=452

 

 

 

[JSpencer]

5 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

It's on Page 8, and is what sparked off this particular bout of "price vs inaccuracy"...

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Page 8 guv:

 

 

 

Interestingly I saw this via a Rails Facebook post today. So maybe their exclusives are being spread around a bit.....

Geez 5 pages of Price vs Inaccuracy. I gave up after scanning back through 2 pages. Thanks all the same.

Edited November 14, 2020 by JSpencer

[MGR Hooper!]

4 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

 

Interestingly I saw this via a Rails Facebook post today. So maybe their exclusives are being spread around a bit.....

Geez 5 pages of Price vs Inaccuracy. I gave up after scanning back through 2 pages. Thanks all the same.

 

Spread around a bit? Do you mean other retailers selling it? If so the GM Collection has always been sold via other retailers like RoS and Hattons.... It has never been a range that was sold exclusively via GM. 

[Krieghoff]

It will be good to see how these models evolve and im sure ill have a look when they arrive. 

[97403_Ixion]

14 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

Spread around a bit? Do you mean other retailers selling it? If so the GM Collection has always been sold via

other retailers like RoS and Hattons.... It has never been a range that was sold exclusively via GM. 

 

Just wait until someone like Gaugemaster releases an exclusive Waterman Range linked commission from Heljan, sold by a company like Kernow, through the Bachmann EFE Rail brand as an Exclusive Limited Special Edition!

...and if Rod Stewart were to buy one or two...

(All names mentioned for the purpose of demonstration of a fictitious situation.  Other suppliers, commissioners, re-branders, pop singers and producers are also available / exist)

 

It were all straight forward when I were a lad!

 

Liking the ROG 47 from GM though - a definite choice for me!

 

I was pleased to see 47492 'Enterprising Scot' in red-striped ScotRail livery...

perhaps a good one to go with the Rails / Bachmann Exclusive 47541 'The Queen Mother' in the same livery, released many years ago along with 47462 'Charles Rennie Macintosh' in standard ScotRail colours.

 

Also pleased to see 47600 in Railfreight Distribution livery... I am sure I saw this with the front numbers defaced to spell out 'SPOON' back in the late 80's / early 90's.

 

One odd thing though... 47578 is listed in the RES 47 description but the photo is of 47776.

I presume it was painted in RES before renumbering?

 

Cheers,

Ixion.

[richscylla]

Does anyone know if 47578 underwent any changes when it was re-numbered to 47776? 

 

Rich

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, richscylla said:

Does anyone know if 47578 underwent any changes when it was re-numbered to 47776? 

 

Rich

Long range fuel tanks, red LEDs and jumper cables on the front, cut down cab around the buffer-beams and under the cab sides.

its noteworthy that one cab was rebuilt (without dominos) whilst in blue as 47578, which changed its appearance in large logo blue.

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by adb968008

[richscylla]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Long range fuel tanks, red LEDs and jumper cables on the front, cut down cab around the buffer-beams and under the cab sides.

its noteworthy that one cab was rebuilt (without dominos) whilst in blue as 47578, which changed its appearance in large logo blue.

 

Thanks - I model from 95 so I don't think 578 is going to be suitable. I think the parcels red one was still around at that time so I might have to do that one instead

 

 

[YesTor]

On 11/11/2020 at 11:36, Ouroborus said:

I give you the Hornby 66.   Went up against TWO other manufacturers - sold out.

 

True, in which case it sounds as though some people on this thread are in the wrong place and instead should perhaps be looking at the Hornby 47, already in stores at around £70?  Problem solved?

 

To elaborate:

 

Hornby Class 47 - tooling dating back to the 1970s (or maybe even earlier), cheap 'n' cheerful, no features  = retail price £72

 

Heljan Class 47 - new 2020/21 tooling, significantly more features/detail = it ain't gonna be £72

 

Straightforward really - quantum mechanics, this is not... 

 

Best

Al

Edited November 17, 2020 by YesTor

[MGR Hooper!]

1 hour ago, YesTor said:

 

To elaborate:

 

Hornby Class 47 - tooling dating back to the 1970s (or maybe even earlier), cheap 'n' cheerful, no features  = retail price £72

 

Heljan Class 47 - new 2020/21 tooling, significantly more features/detail = it ain't gonna be £72

 

Best

Al

 

Or put it this way.... 

 

Heljan Class 47, specifications listed match what Bachmann already offer. 

Bachmamn Class 47 - £179.95 (RRP in 2020) 

Heljan UK Class 47    - £219.95 (RRP in 2020/2021)

 

I'll gladly pay £220+ for a Bachmann Class 47 because I know what I'll get and I know it is accurate and it will come DCC sound fitted or DCC fitted at the least. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by MGR Hooper!

[Derekstuart]

I'm sure this has already been discussed, although I can't see it anywhere.

 

Has anyone any opinions on the ledge in front of the cab windows? I understand the 4mm is using CAD originally developed for the 7mm version. The pictures released by Heljan look as if this ledge is far too deep- but that's only from a few limited development pictures I've seen.

 

Has anyone seen anything more up to date to see whether this has been corrected?

Thanks.