All-new Heljan 47 in 00 gauge

[Ian J.]

42 minutes ago, 47164 said:

You have to feel for Ben having put his heart and soul into the 25/45/47 models with two being challenged by other manufacturers, I guess for us it will come down to price at the end of the day "……it’s becoming a crowded market place.

 

I feel for Ben, but it comes down to accuracy of the R&D people. All too often Heljan has shown an EP with errors that either then don't get corrected before manufacture, or aren't correctly corrected before manufacture.That's not Ben's fault, he just ends up being the public face of an R&D department that isn't doing its job correctly.

[adb968008]

Cant help thinking Heljan is being out played when it comes to 25, 45 and now 47.

i’m not wholly convinced on steam choices either.

 

Where Heljan had its niche was in the niche… those single car DMUs, early gen diesels… the forthcoming 18000 will show how they command this space for over a decade, but they did wander off that path, that allowed a window for others, which is now narrowing with GT3, Fell, Leader and DHP1 all being nibbled by KR… class 89 I feel had Heljans name on it.

 

Heljan was in my mind always mid-market detail for mid-market price, Perhaps rather than competing on mainstream diesels, they should take on those 1st Gen DMU/EMU, at a price more attractive than Bachmanns, but more detailed than Hornbys ?.. I await the 104..

Edited August 3, 2021 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

During a short foray into Southern EMUs a couple of years back I owned a Heljan 33 for a couple of months.

 

It was silky smooth out of the box, better than any other trains I had, I really wanted to do something Highland based so I could also purchase 26 and 27s - but commonsense got the better of me.  But Heljan really owned that market, I guess they thought they could get into the type 4s as well, and as they were working on them in O, why not give them a try in OO.

 

In O gauge with diesels they have that sown up, only Dapol in there as competition, but OO is a minefield at present.

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Absolutely agree Woodenhead. And if the new Bachmann one performs and looks as fantastically as they are suggesting, then I think this one may die a quiet death. Then again they may persevere with it and offer it at a lower price point for those modellers that can’t afford the new Bachmann one. 

 

Given that Heljan showed EP samples back in January, and thus the tooling has been done (and paid for), Heljan has no choice but to continue to bring it to market.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Cant help thinking Heljan is being out played when it comes to 25, 45 and now 47.

 

25 and 47 likely, but I thought the Bachmann 45 was just a minor update?  In which case if the Bachmann 45 still wins then that is squarely on Heljan for not executing on a new tooled item.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Where Heljan had its niche was in the niche… those single car DMUs, early gen diesels… the forthcoming 18000 will show how they command this space for over a decade, but they did wander off that path, that allowed a window for others, which is now narrowing with GT3, Fell, Leader and DHP1 all being nibbled by KR… class 89 I feel had Heljans name on it.

 

I wonder if the cost increases in China made those no longer viable for a company like Heljan with their overheads, which would be one of the reasons for the shift to more mainstream models (that, and the research done for the O versions).

 

I think there is a reason why KR and others like them, with essentially no overheads and simply using China for everything, have been the ones to take on the niche prototypes now.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Heljan was in my mind always mid-market detail for mid-market price, Perhaps rather than competing on mainstream diesels, they should take on those 1st Gen DMU/EMU, at a price more attractive than Bachmanns, but more detailed than Hornbys ?.. I await the 104..

 

Certainly a possibility, though given the number of people tooling things for the UK market these days still no guarantee - perhaps a move to N might be a bit safer...

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Certainly a possibility, though given the number of people tooling things for the UK market these days still no guarantee - perhaps a move to N might be a bit safer...

Given what happened with the L&B initial deliveries, if they do try N, they need to look at diesels - so a 25, Peak or 47.

 

But Bachmann probably have that covered already so I don't think Heljan will be diving in to N, more likely consolidating in O whilst recovering tooling costs on the OO 25 /Peaks / 47s, Dapol have the 26/27/33 & 35 covered though it would be nice to see speaker spaces at the very least on the next18 chassis.

 

The 104 will be a nice seller, it should prove popular, and then perhaps a 110 or a 103, a bold move would be an AM series electric unit.

Edited August 3, 2021 by woodenhead

[mdvle]

15 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Given what happened with the L&B initial deliveries, if they do try N, they need to look at diesels - so a 25, Peak or 47.

 

Perhaps, but Bachmann have been content to put N on hold safe in the knowledge/assumption that there isn't much in the way of competition...

 

15 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But Bachmann probably have that covered already so I don't think Heljan will be diving in to N, more likely consolidating in O

 

Which isn't necessarily all that safe of a move - Rapido have hinted at some O stuff in the works (though in fairness Rapido are also doing N stuff).

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Perhaps, but Bachmann have been content to put N on hold safe in the knowledge/assumption that there isn't much in the way of competition...

 

Not sure N has been on hold, Next18 loco releases, DC sound - the output is smaller than OO, but so is the market.  Even Dapol looked to have departed from new N models at one point and they are slowly working through their list of models.

 

Tomorrow is promised to be a good day for N as it's a big Farish anniversary, lets hope it is.

[mdvle]

14 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Not sure N has been on hold, Next18 loco releases, DC sound - the output is smaller than OO, but so is the market.  Even Dapol looked to have departed from new N models at one point and they are slowly working through their list of models.

 

I didn't mean that they weren't releasing product, just that they weren't really tooling new items - though they did announce the Class 69 to come at some point in the future.

 

Part of that is that (so far) Revolution doesn't have the size to really do much though that will change as they grow, and Dapol decided to focus on O for a while.

 

 

[Class 158 productions]

Although the 45 is offering variations not done by Bachmann the /1 and far more detail than their ageing tooling, but back on topic. I think the normal versions are cheaper than Bachmann with the gaugemaster ones being on similar footing, there have been some issues in the tooling which hopefully are corrected. Maybe they’ll do a 25 and do another quick batch with popular liveries Bachmann haven’t done atm. NSE, LL maybe a few odd balls?

[The Ghost of IKB]

Is this still the Heljan 47 thread? or just somewhere to record whatever random thought (about any manufacturer and or any gauge) enters your head?

[wombatofludham]

To be honest I'll probably be getting a couple of Bachmann 47s and three Heljan ones in liveries not being covered by Bachmann.  Same with the 24s and 25s with Sutton, Heljan and Bachmann all likely to be on the shopping list.  The level of detail being achieved means that there's little obvious differences in their relative looks, so it comes down to affordability and liveries that chime with my needs.

Mind you if I do go on a Sulzer splurge I might find myself in Caernarfon filing for bankruptcy!

[Mophead45143]

13 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

To be honest I'll probably be getting a couple of Bachmann 47s and three Heljan ones in liveries not being covered by Bachmann.  Same with the 24s and 25s with Sutton, Heljan and Bachmann all likely to be on the shopping list.  The level of detail being achieved means that there's little obvious differences in their relative looks, so it comes down to affordability and liveries that chime with my needs.

Mind you if I do go on a Sulzer splurge I might find myself in Caernarfon filing for bankruptcy!

 

I think there will be some obvious differences in their looks when it comes to getting the body shape right!!! 

[wombatofludham]

Just now, Mophead45143 said:

 

I think there will be some obvious differences in their looks when it comes to getting the body shape right!!! 

To be honest, when looking at them moving from the equivalent height of a ten storey block of flats a good 100 yds away from the track, I'm not so sure.  From what I've seen of the pre production models from Heljan they look like a Duff, but one that isn't noticeably fat like their previous model which I could say just looked obese.  The EPs from Heljan contained a lot of components that wouldn't be seen together on any individual loco so were a bit of a mongrel, but to me it looks the part.

 

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

To be honest, when looking at them moving from the equivalent height of a ten storey block of flats a good 100 yds away from the track, I'm not so sure.  From what I've seen of the pre production models from Heljan they look like a Duff, but one that isn't noticeably fat like their previous model which I could say just looked obese.  The EPs from Heljan contained a lot of components that wouldn't be seen together on any individual loco so were a bit of a mongrel, but to me it looks the part.

 

In any case (probably including this one), EPs often include combinations of detail parts that aren't intended to be appear together on production models, purely to verify they all fit the main components. 

 

This deliberate mish-mash approach allows everything to be assessed using the minimum number of EPs.

 

John

Edited August 4, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[lyneux]

4 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

To be honest, when looking at them moving from the equivalent height of a ten storey block of flats a good 100 yds away from the track, I'm not so sure.  From what I've seen of the pre production models from Heljan they look like a Duff, but one that isn't noticeably fat like their previous model which I could say just looked obese.  The EPs from Heljan contained a lot of components that wouldn't be seen together on any individual loco so were a bit of a mongrel, but to me it looks the part.

 

Why not just get yourself a few Lima ones then if you’re not too bothered about looking at them closely?

 

Save yourself a few quid and spare the trip to Caernarfon?

 

On a serious note, there is a reason why getting the basic shape right matters. I hope the painful message is landing with Heljan as they seem to have ignored it for too long.

 

Guy

Edited August 4, 2021 by lyneux

[97406]

Given the price of the (admittedly excellent) new Bachmann 47, I think there's a niche for the new Heljan one in the 'normal' price range. I await the decorated samples with interest.

[97406]

8 minutes ago, lyneux said:

Why not just get yourself a few Lima ones then if you’re not too bothered about looking at them closely?

 

Save yourself a few quid and spare the trip to Caernarfon?

 

Guy

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The ViTrains 47 spruces up well, especially when you replace the factory glazing...

[wombatofludham]

16 minutes ago, lyneux said:

Why not just get yourself a few Lima ones then if you’re not too bothered about looking at them closely?

 

Save yourself a few quid and spare the trip to Caernarfon?

 

On a serious note, there is a reason why getting the basic shape right matters. I hope the painful message is landing with Heljan as they seem to have ignored it for too long.

 

Guy

That's not what I said.  And no, Lima won't cut the mustard.

I said the original EPs from Heljan look like a 47 to me.  I don't see the point of subjecting every new model to microscopic detailed analysis as to whether there 42 rivets on the buffer, or 41.  When the final locos are put on sale, in their colour schemes, I will make a judgement then as to whether they look right or not, but the EPs so far look good.  The point is, I look at the overall silhouette, to be honest, the cantrail issues didn't register with me as they were in a natural plastic finish, so might look completely different when painted - but the original Heljan 47 looked fat to me even before it became widely known it was over scale, and so I never bought one.

It's not a case of accepting any old tat.  It's a case of being grown up about the way the 1:1 eyeball sees things that are scaled down, and expecting some things to have to be adapted to meet commercially economic production.  The good thing about all this is it's pure gum flapping, Heljan won't pull the model, they will sell, and I'm sure Ben at Heljan will be happy with sales.  "Cantrailgate" won't make a jot of difference especially as there are many non-steam modellers who won't come on this forum so probably won't be aware of the "issues" people are raising on a test moulding which for all we know might have been spotted.

[adb968008]

The good thing about a Lima 47.. is every livery under the sun has been done, and its legend still lives on with the GBRF liveries…

Which brings round to the point… if no one else has done the livery youve only got two other choices, DIY or Dw/o.

 

Lima, ViTrains and Bachmann 47’s sit well together, it’s important when youve got a shed full of them… old Heljan does not, but that didnt stop the Heljan faithful buying armfulls.

 

Its only been since 2014 that there has only been 2 choices of 47 on the shelves..all through the 80’s it was Hornby vs Lima, then we had a 4 horse race in the 1990’s with ViTrains, Heljan, Hornby (both theirs and Lima) and Bachmann, it became a 2 horse in 2014 when Vitrains and Heljan retired. 
I am surprised the vitrains tooling never resurfaced, but this development probably consigns it to permanent history.

 

i’m sure there is space for 3x 47’s in 2021.., With over 100 liveries, and another 100 celebrities / pet favourites, the 47 is a generational model, so its little wonder both Heljan and Bachmann have done it in 2021/2. 

 

Its not just price / detail that will sell this model, its variety.. some liveries will sell regardless.. if you have them, they will sell, if you dont, you wont. I suspect an arms race will emerge on 47 liveries, as its an easy field to play in, with a lot of old stuff to push out of peoples fleets… For instance, I have 47079/628 from Bachmann, and 47484 from Lima, but i’m still missing a 47500… to finish my GW150 set.

 

Its an intriguing choice, much like the Accurascale 37…. I just wish someone would go to war with the 31, but thats another story.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by adb968008

[newbryford]

38 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

Its an intriguing choice, much like the Accurascale 37…. I just wish someone would go to war with the 31, but thats another story.

 

 

 

Maybe they are, but just keeping their powder dry. But now dreading the "p*ssed off"

backlash when folks say that they haven't enough time to save up to buy one.

[Clive Mortimore]

I am quite happily run Hornby, Lima, Heljan, Vi trains, Bachmann, GBL and my one day will be finished scratchbuilt type  4 1/2s together. I have a MTK one that needs some attention in the running department and an as yet not started Modern Outlines kit. Will I buy one of these and/or the new Bachy one I am not sure.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Clive Mortimore

[JohnC]

Even though the older Heljan 47 was “a bit tubby” I always had this in preference to the Bachmann one.

Looking forward to the new one and sure it will be very competitive with the Bachmann one

[97406]

45 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Even though the older Heljan 47 was “a bit tubby” I always had this in preference to the Bachmann one.

Looking forward to the new one and sure it will be very competitive with the Bachmann one

The old Heljan one looks fine in certain liveries. I picked up a mint Large Logo one for £70 on Ebay, and it looks great. The banger blue ones not so much, but then the cabs on the Lima ones also don’t look quite right either though they can be brought up to scratch if need be.

[atom3624]

I love Heljan chassis - always seem to run very well.

One thing that's put me off raising my bid, has been the crispness of the upper grilles - just seem better on the Bachmann one.

 

Al.