All-new Heljan 47 in 00 gauge

[uk_pm]

22 hours ago, atom3624 said:

I love Heljan chassis - always seem to run very well.

One thing that's put me off raising my bid, has been the crispness of the upper grilles - just seem better on the Bachmann one.

 

Al.

I’m so glad you said that; they run and run.  I can never make my Bachman locos do more than a few circuits before they break down and have to be serviced. 

[atom3624]

How long is your track - several hundred metres?

I find that unusual for Bachmann tbh - generally find them very reliable.

Heljan from my experience just need a quick clean, lube where necessary, and job's done for quite a while.

Each person's experience is obviously different, their tracks, rolling stock and power controls different.

You surprised me with the Bachmann comment.

Al.

[The Black Hat]

On 03/08/2021 at 22:44, adb968008 said:

Cant help thinking Heljan is being out played when it comes to 25, 45 and now 47.

i’m not wholly convinced on steam choices either.

 

Where Heljan had its niche was in the niche… those single car DMUs, early gen diesels… the forthcoming 18000 will show how they command this space for over a decade, but they did wander off that path, that allowed a window for others, which is now narrowing with GT3, Fell, Leader and DHP1 all being nibbled by KR… class 89 I feel had Heljans name on it.

 

Heljan was in my mind always mid-market detail for mid-market price, Perhaps rather than competing on mainstream diesels, they should take on those 1st Gen DMU/EMU, at a price more attractive than Bachmanns, but more detailed than Hornbys ?.. I await the 104..

 

Some of Heljans choices to me have been spot on. Part of the reason that one off engines became a success is because of Heljan producing all the various diesel transition period prototypes. That was a brilliant smart move as it meant many people would want an engine that just happened to turn up in the area. Once they did a few, collectors got in on wanting them all. 

With these having been done, its clear the move was always going to need to be to return to classes that are regular runners. This brings the risk of duplication, but if Heljan produce a new tooled class 47 to the same standard and price as the Hattons 66 or Dapol 68 they will steal a march on Bachmann and massively undercut them. The Heljan 47 previously, while a bit tuby, was a great looking engine and also very strong thanks to the massive chassis. At the time it blew away others but the Bachmann one gave it competition. Now the same is happening again. 

Yet, there is a market for Heljan 47s to succeed if done correctly. As I have posted in the Bachmann 47 thread, we are finding out just how much high spec detail people want and for what price. Heljan's 47 can compete if it has working cab, directional and headlights - with the ability to fit sound as well. Last night I fitted sound to one class 33 that I have and was very impressed with the detail, overall appearance and sound coming from the engine. Sound fitted it will have cost about £180 being an older engine, 33103. The newer one being about £240 will be fitted tonight. They will do as needed, but not having full lights is a bit of a shame, but then the prototype does not. Compared to the Hattons 66 (a good benchmark) I think it works out ok overall. 

If Heljan can produce a sound fitted 47 for the rough same price as the Bachmann one that comes ready, then I think there will be a part of the market that is more shrewd and goes for the Heljan offer. In terms of other projects then I think Heljan could be moving into unit production again. Is the 180, 185, or 175 on their radar... or more first gen units like the 110. Personally, I think Heljan will not go for the former but 1st gen units match their track record. Other diesels such as the Hymek and Warship look like prime Heljan territory to me - so will have to see what the future brings. If it comes at the right price and standard then I think Heljans results might surprise a great many... 

[Dunsignalling]

With Heljan having done all the research and design work for the first-generation Class 120 DMU in 7mm scale, and given it's long-standing presence at or near the top of wish-list polls, I'd think doing it in 4mm ought to be something of a no-brainer.

 

The news that Accurascale have a number of (as yet unspecified) DMUs under consideration might provide a gentle push in the right direction.  

 

I've wanted a couple of these for a very long time, and have the funds ready and waiting for anything up to Bachmann price levels or even a little beyond....

 

John 

[61661]

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

With Heljan having done all the research and design work for the first-generation Class 120 DMU in 7mm scale, and given it's long-standing presence at or near the top of wish-list polls, I'd think doing it in 4mm ought to be something of a no-brainer.

We haven't. The O gauge Class 120 DMU project was shelved several years ago. It's before my time with the company but original source material was in very short supply and without any extant vehicles to measure and photograph (apart from one unrestored intermediate trailer) it was decided to focus on other projects, such as the BRCW Class 104 in OO. 

[Dunsignalling]

25 minutes ago, 61661 said:

We haven't. The O gauge Class 120 DMU project was shelved several years ago. It's before my time with the company but original source material was in very short supply and without any extant vehicles to measure and photograph (apart from one unrestored intermediate trailer) it was decided to focus on other projects, such as the BRCW Class 104 in OO. 

Oh, B****r.

[61661]

Afternoon All,

Been busy with other projects this week, so haven't had time to get too deeply into all the various discussions. However, there seems to be some uncertainty about the spec of our new OO Class 47, so here are the headlines...

 

- Factory fitted twin speakers with sound-fitted option on all versions

- Separately switchable headcode panel, cab, tail and engine room lights

- Twin flywheels and powerful motor

- Floating centre axle (as per the old model) and outer axles powered, an arrangement renowned for its smooth running qualities

- accurate ride height on bogies

- 7x boiler roof panel options (Spanner, Clayton and Stones with plated versions of each) 

- 9x main body/end combinations initially with more planned for later batches

- Original or Serck radiator roof sections with more recent fixed rad grille designs planned

- Class 47 and Class 48 body/roof variants

- Locos with Res TDM control cables (both standard and crash repair ends) 

- Original headcode panels, 2x plated headcode panel inserts and crash repair end designs

- Original or cutaway bufferbeam cowling options for all the above

- 3x underframe tank options with more planned (with/without water tanks and with long range tanks)

- Cab front mounted or bufferbeam mounted ETH parts

- Pantograph or single arm wipers

- Round or rectangular buffers

- NRN aerials fitted as appropriate

- Intricately layered bogie detail scaled down from our O gauge model

- Highly detailed deco with individual elements for specific locos (formal and informal) where appropriate

- Plus all the other features that customers expect today - wire handrails, LED lighting, 21-pin DCC interface, speaker connection wires, etc. 

- Suggested retail price for a DCC Ready model is £219.00.

 

To give some indication of the options that will be available we're currently up to 36 different CAD versions with countless others possible just on the tooling options we have now. There will of course be others in due course, such as a Scottish 47/7. 

 

Don't forget that Heljan released its first OO Class 47s in 2001 and the model sold tens of thousands over the following 15 years, being available alongside Bachmann's 47 for most of that time without detriment to either model. Our old tooling was worn out, so we decided to replace it with a model fit for the 2020s. Our friends in Barwell have clearly come to the same conclusion and customers will have their preferences, as they did for a long time with the previous iterations. 

 

The latest OO Class 47 samples are en route to the UK now, so we'll have more information and photos for you soon, once we've checked them out. 

 

I also hope to have some good news on the Peaks shortly as well. We're as frustrated as you that these aren't out yet as most of the development work has been completed for a long time. In terms of spec, these will be similar to the Class 47 and the detail options mean we can almost customise them down to individual locos so it's a significant step forward from earlier models. 

 

Hope this helps

 

Ben

 

 

 

 

[gridwatcher]

24 minutes ago, 61661 said:

Afternoon All,

Been busy with other projects this week, so haven't had time to get too deeply into all the various discussions. However, there seems to be some uncertainty about the spec of our new OO Class 47, so here are the headlines...

 

- Factory fitted twin speakers with sound-fitted option on all versions

- Separately switchable headcode panel, cab, tail and engine room lights

- Twin flywheels and powerful motor

- Floating centre axle (as per the old model) and outer axles powered, an arrangement renowned for its smooth running qualities

- accurate ride height on bogies

- 7x boiler roof panel options (Spanner, Clayton and Stones with plated versions of each) 

- 9x main body/end combinations initially with more planned for later batches

- Original or Serck radiator roof sections with more recent fixed rad grille designs planned

- Class 47 and Class 48 body/roof variants

- Locos with Res TDM control cables (both standard and crash repair ends) 

- Original headcode panels, 2x plated headcode panel inserts and crash repair end designs

- Original or cutaway bufferbeam cowling options for all the above

- 3x underframe tank options with more planned (with/without water tanks and with long range tanks)

- Cab front mounted or bufferbeam mounted ETH parts

- Pantograph or single arm wipers

- Round or rectangular buffers

- NRN aerials fitted as appropriate

- Intricately layered bogie detail scaled down from our O gauge model

- Highly detailed deco with individual elements for specific locos (formal and informal) where appropriate

- Plus all the other features that customers expect today - wire handrails, LED lighting, 21-pin DCC interface, speaker connection wires, etc. 

- Suggested retail price for a DCC Ready model is £219.00.

 

To give some indication of the options that will be available we're currently up to 36 different CAD versions with countless others possible just on the tooling options we have now. There will of course be others in due course, such as a Scottish 47/7. 

 

Don't forget that Heljan released its first OO Class 47s in 2001 and the model sold tens of thousands over the following 15 years, being available alongside Bachmann's 47 for most of that time without detriment to either model. Our old tooling was worn out, so we decided to replace it with a model fit for the 2020s. Our friends in Barwell have clearly come to the same conclusion and customers will have their preferences, as they did for a long time with the previous iterations. 

 

The latest OO Class 47 samples are en route to the UK now, so we'll have more information and photos for you soon, once we've checked them out. 

 

I also hope to have some good news on the Peaks shortly as well. We're as frustrated as you that these aren't out yet as most of the development work has been completed for a long time. In terms of spec, these will be similar to the Class 47 and the detail options mean we can almost customise them down to individual locos so it's a significant step forward from earlier models. 

 

Hope this helps

 

Ben

 

 

 

 

Great news Ben. I know where our money has gone in the past and feel that it's likely to be the same going forwards.... Denmark!

[Chris56057]

I'm also keen for these to arrive, particularly after your mini update above Ben. Looking forward to seeing the EP samples in due course. 

[younGGuns7]

Really think you have missed the boat on this release has it would seem you are at least 12 months behind your competition perhaps you should concentrate on the Peak to max out your potential may be wrong 

[rob D2]

10 minutes ago, younGGuns7 said:

Really think you have missed the boat on this release has it would seem you are at least 12 months behind your competition perhaps you should concentrate on the Peak to max out your potential may be wrong 

Some punctuation may help your case.

[younGGuns7]

2 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Some punctuation may help your case.

Thanks 

[younGGuns7]

23 minutes ago, younGGuns7 said:

Really think you have missed the boat on this release has it would seem you are at least 12 months behind your competition, perhaps you should concentrate on the Peak to max out your potential may be wrong. Corrected for 1 individual. X

 

[MrB]

At least I know with the Heljan offering, that I will be able to have fitted miniature snowploughs and bufferbeam details. This doesn't appear to be an option with the latest Bachmann model going with the instructions, sample locos and accessories provided.

[gridwatcher]

2 hours ago, MrB said:

At least I know with the Heljan offering, that I will be able to have fitted miniature snowploughs and bufferbeam details. This doesn't appear to be an option with the latest Bachmann model going with the instructions, sample locos and accessories provided.

....add to that the ploughs are likely to actually look like the protoype unlike the £400 loco.

[brushman47544]

17 hours ago, 61661 said:

To give some indication of the options that will be available we're currently up to 36 different CAD versions

So only 7.03% of the possible 512…

 

But seriously Ben, the spec looks very good and if you can pull off the tooling changes that have been raised by the knowledgeable on here, you should have a winner.

[Legend]

On 06/08/2021 at 11:13, Dunsignalling said:

With Heljan having done all the research and design work for the first-generation Class 120 DMU in 7mm scale, and given it's long-standing presence at or near the top of wish-list polls, I'd think doing it in 4mm ought to be something of a no-brainer.

 

The news that Accurascale have a number of (as yet unspecified) DMUs under consideration might provide a gentle push in the right direction.  

 

I've wanted a couple of these for a very long time, and have the funds ready and waiting for anything up to Bachmann price levels or even a little beyond....

 

John 

 What news of Accurascale dmus? I seem to have missed this . 

[Legend]

On 47s , surely the sensible thing to do is to wait and see what each model offered . I really don’t understand people dashing headlong to preorder the Bachmann 47 . Existing models , Heljan and Bachmann, are pretty decent , so people can afford to wait and see which ones best . Good that Ben has published the full spec above . It seems that Heljan will be able to cover most if not all the versions announced by Bachmann .

 

I thought the recent Heljan 86 was outstanding . Will wait to see what they offer on 47 and any versions I particularly like come up. 

[uk_pm]

On 06/08/2021 at 10:05, atom3624 said:

How long is your track - several hundred metres?

I find that unusual for Bachmann tbh - generally find them very reliable.

Heljan from my experience just need a quick clean, lube where necessary, and job's done for quite a while.

Each person's experience is obviously different, their tracks, rolling stock and power controls different.

You surprised me with the Bachmann comment.

Al.

I have a long-ish continuous run layout (20’ x 30’) and operate full-length trains, so work my locos quite hard.  My fleet of Bachmann Deltics now all sit on the Heljan DP2 chassis and my Heljan 47s work faultlessly.  The Bachmann 47s are temperamental and do not do a scale 95mph, whilst the Bachmann class 37, 40 and 45 have pick up issues (and the 37s, in particular, have a very low top speed).  I am absolutely not anti-Bachmann; they have played a massive part in the rising standard of British OO RTR, but they consistently underwhelm in terms of performance.  You can see my fleet in operation on my You Tube channel: Doncasteroo.  

[Dunsignalling]

37 minutes ago, Legend said:

 What news of Accurascale dmus? I seem to have missed this . 

Just a throwaway line in one of their updates, that they are considering  possible 1st and 2nd generation units. No specifics but, reading between the lines, up-to-the-minute stuff isn't (as yet) on their agenda! 

 

It'll certainly keep me watching out for their communications which is, no doubt, the idea....

 

John

[Michael Hodgson]

I for one would be more interested in a 1st generation unit than anything current, but manufacturers will no doubt decide for themselves what the market wants.

[D6975]

On 06/08/2021 at 16:21, 61661 said:

We haven't. The O gauge Class 120 DMU project was shelved several years ago. It's before my time with the company but original source material was in very short supply and without any extant vehicles to measure and photograph (apart from one unrestored intermediate trailer) it was decided to focus on other projects, such as the BRCW Class 104 in OO. 

Should have given Charlie a bell.....

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, Legend said:

 What news of Accurascale dmus? I seem to have missed this . 

 

Post in a general discussion about one person being upset that Accurscale have yet to deliver their announced locos.

 

Accurascale have over £2m in projects in progress that have yet to be announced, with announcement delayed by the delays in the 55, 92, and Mark 5 coaches.

 

Stated they have 6 D&E, 5 steam, and several mu projects underway - which appears to be more than just "a consideration"

 

 

[mdvle]

On 06/08/2021 at 06:00, The Black Hat said:

If Heljan can produce a sound fitted 47 for the rough same price as the Bachmann one that comes ready, then I think there will be a part of the market that is more shrewd and goes for the Heljan offer.

 

Which they aren't.

 

Per Ben's post the Heljan DC version will be £219, with Bachmann at £240

 

That said, as noted by Ben the Class 47 market is likely big enough for 2 high end models and the choice of what to buy is just as likely to come down to who is offering the right livery and number at the moment of purchase vs the name on the box.

 

Or, based on something minor - like some don't like the look of the lights on the Bachmann version as their attempt to recreating the prototype looks exaggerated in model form and thus distracting - at least in the posted pictures.

 

 

 

[rob D2]

On 06/08/2021 at 09:15, uk_pm said:

I’m so glad you said that; they run and run.  I can never make my Bachman locos do more than a few circuits before they break down and have to be serviced. 

I had quite the opposite - all my Bachmann s run well but the HJ47s were requiring decoders  like circuit breakers from a power station and did either 0 mph or 150.

 

I remember being completely underwhelmed with the " new generation " when I received my first one in 2001