brian daniels Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 Yes Jeff but it is sold as replacement tanks for the Heljan model as is the bogie sideframes so I do expect them to fit the Heljan model when both are used. Don't get me wrong they are nice and will look good when painted and weathered on the model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstaf Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 (edited) There's plenty of good and bad on both HJ and MMP class 47 kits. The modern MMP 47 kit is a vast improvement on the RJH version. However, they're still far enough away from the capturing the look of the real 47 enough. We could do with a happy medium, dear JLTRT or dear HJ please have another go or when I've got some cab drawings hello 3D printer. Cheers Tom Edited December 21, 2014 by tomstaf 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) Up-date on what I have been doing recently. I am having a bash at a PRMRP (or RJH to us old un's) class 73. As with all these old kits the shapes are variable depending on how flat you make the roofs. I have noticed on these kits that they don't appear to have the curve in the roof above the cantrail, most just fold over into an arc straight away. I made a couple of bulkheads to get the roof over giving a better roof line. A big fault on these is the fronts. The change from up-right to the angled windows is at the bottom of the window opening and not a couple of mm below it as per the kit. So I made a deeper front and cut the bottom of the upper window etch off to get it at the correct position. Also the tops of the windows are straight across all three and not angled on the outer two. I have cut the original etch to represent this but I will get an etch made so as to put the angle in the two window pillars as well as these windows do not curve with the front but are 50p shaped. The guttering across the front has been made into a better shape. The horns on the roof are MMP ones that now sit in a recess. All the whitemetal castings are not from this kit! I got a set from a friend who has had them for some years. The bogies are I believe what are in the old MMP VEP kits that Peter Clark does now. There are some better underframe castings to go with it as well when I sort out the underframe. I want to make a floor for this so we can remove the body in one go and leave the chassis/floor as a running stand alone item as per JLTRT. This will make it easier to DCC sound it later. I have used a Mashima with a Roxey 13:1 gearbox on both bogies so it will MU with all my other kit built locos. I am getting some new bodyside grills 3D printed as the ones on the body etch are a bit flat. So there you have it a long project that I have now put away again now I have got the basic body done and I can see what needs fettling, the ends still need work for sure! I love the Cl73's Brian and I seem to remember that Darren Sherwood-Jones did a nice level of detailing of the then Nigel Stanley version - BTW doesnt our mutual friend Richard get to play with one of the real ones? Another job I started yesterday as I had to strip my Heljan 47 down to replace a split gear was to make the MMP replacement water tanks and battery boxes. They look ok but the bogies that are fitted with MMP sideframes won't now turn! I have built this as the kit comes but will now modify it to get the details correct. There are some details that are a bit iffy as there should be an h shape ontop of the middle of the tanks for the water to flow down from the bodyside filler into both tanks but there is nothing supplied. Thankfully I have a DJH set from one of their kits to add. Should also be a step under the middle of the tanks inline with the cast whitemetal one. But the main problem is that the bogies don't turn now! Something will have to get removed from the back of the bogie or the tanks. It looks likely to be the brakegear that gets removed. As you can see we also added a gusset behind the bufferbeams that fills the gap in there nicely. As you know Brian I have the side-frames to fit to mine, as well as the cab details - I baulked at the tanks though. I know that you and I also chatted about concerns about how to fit the cross bogie components for easy removal if ever when the Heljan split a gear. May I ask how you removed yours (I hoped to come up with an 'engineered' solution for mine)? Too late Pete I have removed a bit of the etch at the ends to get a bit of swing at the ends. I thought this MMP stuff was supposed to be good Although I assume these are just lifted from their class 47 kit rather than measured up specially for the Heljan one? One things for sure, it is going to fit as I have removed the cast lugs hanging down from the chassis for the Heljan one to go back on! I like MMP parts a lot, yet one or two seem a little OTT, in that they have been very detailed but not to scale (ie too big) and others have been very fiddly, I have heard the same from some of the military, ship and aviation modellers with the other ranges too (sorry Mr. Parkin), I wouldnt be without MMP's range of parts though and I eagerly await the MMP Cl33... Quite right on both accounts Brian but they do descend from the very old RJH kits which were never 100% accurate and some things were never corrected. Hi Pete, I thought that these parts were newer than the RJH stuff as David P. sold on that range (RJH) and wanted to start anew - I am sure that Col. Hoare would have also set up T&C's to stop David P. from selling competing models (at least for a period of time). It is...build an MMP kit and tell me it's not? Good doesn't even start to describe it, brilliant is better....... My money would be on the Heljan being wrong, NOT the MMP stuff. I don't think that's quite right, either. Other than the fact that the same guy did the artwork for both, there is little relation between them, the newer MMP stuff is all-new artwork and etchings and uses none of the older PWP/RJH/PRMRP bits....that was part of the deal when the original PWP stuff was sold to RJH afaik. As mentioned above: try an MMP kit, then tell me it ain't brilliant. Not all that glitters is gold Jeff, and call me old fashioned, but the MMP kit's were sold to fit the Heljan 47. Like some of the proposed etch parts from other manufacturers (for 7mm Heljan RTR), the manufacturer has to decide whether or not to accommodate the RTR model's foibles or do away and start anew with specific areas (with major surgery being required on the part of the modeller/customer). There's plenty of good and bad on both HJ and MMP class 47 kits. The modern MMP 47 kit is a vast improvement on the RJH version. However, they're still far enough away from the capturing the look of the real 47 enough. We could do with a happy medium, dear JLTRT or dear HJ please have another go or when I've got some cab drawings hello 3D printer. Cheers Tom Hi Tom, I agree, I have always thought that the MMP cab area doesnt seem right either. Some have argued that they would prefer to use the old RJH 47 and super-detail that - I plumped for the Heljan model with a view to super-detail that, the DJH one looks pretty good from most angles, but a weighty beast. ATVB and the season's greetings to one and all. CME Edited December 22, 2014 by CME and Bottlewasher Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Softvark Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I have cut away the ends to accommodate the rear of the bogie when they swing. On one end this left a rather thin stretcher so it is reinforced by a piece of L angle. These end stretchers are the only thing holding the tanks to the floor! I lifted up the air cooling pipes but had to loose the filler above them. Added the conduit from one end to the floor. I will have to tape it to the floor to check it runs ok on track. Hi Brian That is really useful and timely as I have just built the MMP tanks but not yet fitted them as I was waiting for the MMP bogies to come back in stock - which a limited quantity have now done. I was suspicious that there may be problems with their length when trial fitted with the original Heljan bogies but thought I would leave it until after I'd made the bogies . Now that you've trimmed the sides of the tanks how much movement of the bogies do you get? Is is sufficient for most curves? Have you also found a way of making the bogie end frames removable in case of problems with the Heljan gears? Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) When I replaced the gear I was surprised how flexible the resin sideframes were. I was expecting to have to cut two corners so you can pull the sides off the two big lugs on the bogie but I managed to pull one side off the lugs first and then the other by just pulling the sideframe out. It flexed far enough and nothing went "twang" much to my surprise. I have fixed the tank with four 6BA bolts that I drilled and tapped into the chassis block. Hopefully you can see were I cut the end stretchers to get the bogie swing clearance. All I used was a cutting disc in the Dremel! Also added the etch access plate on the bufferbeam side. I have to sort out the buffers as for some reason they are sticking up a bit and I think the heads are too big, they are 14mm/2 foot diameter. The bogies rotate ok with the model on a flat surface so should be ok on a layout, I hope. As you can see looking down the model the tanks don't stick out anymore. Edited December 22, 2014 by brian daniels 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) When I replaced the gear I was surprised how flexible the resin sideframes were. I was expecting to have to gut two corners so you can pull the sides off the two big lugs on the bogie but I managed to pull one side off the lugs first and then the other by just pulling the sideframe out. It flexed far enough and nothing went "twang" much to my surprise. I have fixed the tank with four 6BA bolts that I drilled and tapped into the chassis block. Hopefully you can see were I cut the end stretchers to get the bogie swing clearance. All I used was a cutting disc in the Dremel! Also added the etch access plate on the bufferbeam side. I have to sort out the buffers as for some reason they are sticking up a bit and I think the heads are too big, they are 14mm/2 foot diameter. The bogies rotate ok with the model on a flat surface so should be ok on a layout, I hope. As you can see looking down the model the tanks don't stick out anymore. Hi Brian, Thanks, so just to clarify anything - such as stretchers etc - across the bogies stayed in place and you were able to remove the whole lot (the cosmetic bogie side-frames etc.) from the Heljan bogies, just by flexing the resin MMP side-frames? Just wondering how long ago it was that you fitted them, as the resin ages, such might not be possible in future, but if the replacement HJ gears are of better quality hopefully you wont have to do such again, none of us will. Thanks with season's greetings, CME Edited December 22, 2014 by CME and Bottlewasher Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 Well I started it in October 2010 according to the exif data on the digital pictures, blimey don't time fly! As I said the sideframes just went into a nice arc and went over the lugs, just, but it went one side at a time. If you haven't already changed the gears I would do this before starting this mod as they will go sometime for sure.The new ones are to a better tolerance so are not gripping the axle so tightly so hopefully should last, although only time will tell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) Well I started it in October 2010 according to the exif data on the digital pictures, blimey don't time fly! As I said the sideframes just went into a nice arc and went over the lugs, just, but it went one side at a time. If you haven't already changed the gears I would do this before starting this mod as they will go sometime for sure.The new ones are to a better tolerance so are not gripping the axle so tightly so hopefully should last, although only time will tell. Hi Brian, Wow, time does fly! Sage advice - thanks. I am sorry to hear that you have had a problem with yours, glad that it is all sorted now though. Your 47 looks great, hope that mine turns out as well (I shall just mod the HJ tanks though), Pete Harvey's mods seem the least painful though. Let us hope that HJ have got the replacements right now BTW - being curious - what it the bright 'red brick' structure in the background with the red-oxide bar down it, I am intrigued. Kindest, CME Edited December 22, 2014 by CME and Bottlewasher Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 Ah so you've noticed the new backdrop. It's a very old precast concrete shed that I repainted in the summer, a bit tedious doing all the fake mortar joints but it look ok from the house. There used to be an old greenhouse infront of it with whitewashed windows if you look back through this thread but that is now down the local tip. Hopefully get some primer on the tanks when the wind stops blowing as at the moment I could squirt the aerosol and hit the model down the end of the street! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Ah so you've noticed the new backdrop. It's a very old precast concrete shed that I repainted in the summer, a bit tedious doing all the fake mortar joints but it look ok from the house. There used to be an old greenhouse infront of it with whitewashed windows if you look back through this thread but that is now down the local tip. Hopefully get some primer on the tanks when the wind stops blowing as at the moment I could squirt the aerosol and hit the model down the end of the street! Thanks Brian, The big question now is are you going to weather it (it will take a few tins of Humbrol) or let the elements do that? Seriously though you have done a cracking job on it, much nicer than plain old concrete! It's grim for painting outdoors at the moment, but last year on a calm day, in a sun trap, even in winter, I got several models done. I have a portable spray booth but I am a bit wary of using such indoors (in the house), in case I get found out by SWMBO Thanks again Brian, when we get some track down, if ever you are in the area (not a million miles away ), you will have to come and play trains. ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Softvark Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Thanks Brian, those photos are really helpful and are somewhat reassuring that the problems not as bad as I first thought. I agree a product specifically sold to be used with Heljan should really fit without having to cut half of it away. Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Not sure I agree.....isn't the idea of fitting better bits to make the model truer to scale? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Re6/6 11683 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Hello Brian - just a small thing about the 47 tanks which might not be possible/ worth altering but as 47091 is an AP wired machine I think the conduits from the battery boxes to the generator should run differently to how they are on your model? Currently they run as on SP wired locos like 105. Kevyn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Softvark Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Not sure I agree.....isn't the idea of fitting better bits to make the model truer to scale? Absolutely but that's not what I said. I was agreeing with Brian in post 2207 - Yes Jeff but it is sold as replacement tanks for the Heljan model as is the bogie sideframes so I do expect them to fit the Heljan model when both are used. Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 It is...build an MMP kit and tell me it's not? Good doesn't even start to describe it, brilliant is better....... My money would be on the Heljan being wrong, NOT the MMP stuff. Thanks for your support Jeff, much appreciated - but I wouldn't worry about it really. The particular post you were replying to was totally innacurate anyway. If you are a manufacturer it is neither professional or a good idea to go onto forums slagging off another manufacturer - you can leave yourself wide open - but I will not respond in detail, even though I could. Some folks on here just expect to post their criticisms thinking that their own modelling is beyond it or that they have made the best job possible of constructing a kit, whereas pigs & ears are often more apposite. Just ignore 'em! Hell, some of the postings on here can't even get my name right so how accurate are they in other respects! Have a good Christmas over that side of the UK. Saw both a buzzard and a jay when out with the dogs this morning, so all is fine in my world! Regards, David Parkins, Modern Motive Power, www.djparkins.com 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Saw both a buzzard and a jay when out with the dogs this morning, so all is fine in my world! Certainly is Dave. Even the Alpaca in Solva seem happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Certainly is Dave. Even the Alpaca in Solva seem happy. Hello Two Tone - Yes, we have seen those guys several times. Come to think of it though Solva may be the ONLY place where alpacas are happy - being generally of a rather grumpy disposition! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Harvey Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 The only reason I know about the indifference in the Heljan replacement tanks is that I have had a customer come to me (who is an engine driver) who measured the real thing and found the discrepancy in the length and asked me about what could be done I said that he "should go back to the supplier with the problem" I don't know if he did even try to do that. I'm going to say what I know when someone else has the same problem or the problem won't be corrected. Pete 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Hello Two Tone - Yes, we have seen those guys several times. Come to think of it though Solva may be the ONLY place where alpacas are happy - being generally of a rather grumpy disposition! Its a Pembrokeshire thing, we are a happy lot. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 (edited) The only reason I know about the indifference in the Heljan replacement tanks is that I have had a customer come to me (who is an engine driver) who measured the real thing and found the discrepancy in the length and asked me about what could be done I said that he "should go back to the supplier with the problem" I don't know if he did even try to do that. I'm going to say what I know when someone else has the same problem or the problem won't be corrected. Pete I was referring to post 2203 in my earlier post - "they do descend from the very old RJH kits" - your statement is simply untrue. But I guess you know best. BTW I could have responded to your thread over on WT regarding your Container Flat but I would not do that. I did note your reaction though when someone DID put up a criticism about the accuracy of the bogies. Welcome to the world of manufacturing! I can see soldering and assembly standards of my kit on the previous page that simply make my eyes water - castings and etched overlays fitted crookedly, abutting edge joints not cleand up and chambfered, cusping not cleaned up, file marks and more! But you just have to get over it. No doubt you will see the same when your wagon kit is released. Edited December 23, 2014 by djparkins Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Harvey Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 (edited) David Fair comment David as I have said on WT the kit was designed and built to my customer specification and he is more than happy with it and how it assembles. If you would like to enlighten us on the history of MMP kit's and it's linage, then that would be great, as I have heard a lot of things from a lot of people about MMP and have looked at a lot of build threads as well and I consider them to be of a very high standard in design and a very good build, but what mists the quality of your kits is the association to there predecessor and when the earlier models are made out to be MMP when being sold on and are clearly not the current MMP product. P.S. Having been in Engineering Design/Manufacturing for 20 years I do understand how the process works. Pete Edited December 23, 2014 by Pete Harvey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 (edited) If you would like to enlighten us on the history of MMP kit's and it's linage, then that would be great If you would like to enlighten us on the history of MMP kit's and it's linage, then that would be great, Simple Really - I started Post-War Prototypes in 1979 and sold the [by then] 96 kits to RJH Model Railways in June 1988. These were very low cost kits and sold in multiple hundreds - you had a basic set of parts and what you made of them was very much up to you. RJH put the prices up by over 200% and dropped ABS Models as the castings supplier and the two things combined killed the range. As an example our SPA wagon was £25.50 and over £70.00 soon after RJH took over, with a reduction in casting quality. But at the right price there is still a market for a range like that - the price though has to reflect the basic nature [by today's standard] of the kits. I launched a totally new range, Modern Motive Power in September 1988, starting with an 08 kit. There is no crossover between the two ranges - not even one common part. Thats it. Simples. Edited December 23, 2014 by djparkins Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Harvey Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Thank you David I'm sure that that has answered a lot of questions for people that were unsure or did not know the history of the MMP range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fay Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Personally I think that the MMP bits massively improve the Heljan model and make a huge difference. Now why did I sell my Heljan 47 :-( Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasond Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Apologies to Brian, not a hijack, but David have you still got the F40/GP40 stuff? Merry Christmas ... whatever! Jason Dickie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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