Bachmann GWR 64xx Issue?

[MartinTrucks]

My 00 layout has been torn down for rebuilding and I presently use an oval of Kato H0 code 83 Unitrack but do not have any points/switches. If it is anything like the n-scale version, the Atlas B23-7 will have all-wheel pickup and, of course, a much longer wheelbase than the 64xx.

 

My present small n-scale layout uses Kato  Unitrack and runs pretty well although I have found that the switch blades (mainly on the crossovers) cannot be relied upon to conduct unless they are really clean, so I have had to install extra power supplies behind the points/switches for smooth running. This of course negates the 'self-isolating' function of the points but this is not needed where the crossovers are located. I also had an issue with a Kato n-scale power supply track section and now solder wires directly to the rails instead. I have had no problems so far with the H0 version.

 

Hope you have your problem sorted now.

 

Martin

[The Johnster]

My running, using Peco insulfrog turnouts (but I'm thinking about relaying in code 75 chaired), relies on current being passed by blade rails in the interests of electrical simplicity.  Occasional problems arise but are solved in moments with a bit of switch cleaner and a gentle pass with a file to get the carbon build up off.

 

Part of the original philosophy of the layout was the maximum simplicity, in the belief that switches and wiring introduce screw or soldered terminals which are capable of causing problems, and anyway wear out and have to be replaced every so often.  Past experience with club layouts that never, ever, worked properly and had a club member spending most of his time under the boards dripping solder in his eye at shows are what 'informs' this view.  I have an ancient Gaugemaster power controller which feeds a HH; there is one main feed on the layout and two bridging feeds from it to sidings which are 'kick back' from that location.  And that's it.

 

Well, for now, anyway.  At least one operation requires a switched isolating section, I am not yet sure how Peco's 'unifrog' system with the code 75 chaired works, and I am installing platform lighting, no doubt to be followed by other lighting, and I'm going to have some Dapol working signals, all of which will destroy the pristine unswitched minimally wired glory of the current setup!

[thx712517]

Figure when it comes time, I'll grab Peco electrofrog switches and maybe those rail joiners with the power feed coming off them. 

[Cofga]

My 6424 arrived Saturday and I installed a SoundTraxx ECO-100 UK steam decoder. I had to pull the 6-pin socket and associated RFI filter but if fit nicely there. I pulled out the weights and installed a sugar cube speaker in one pannier and a TCS KA1 keep alive on the other side. I then cut the weights to fit in the remaining space. The combination of the SoundTraxx BEMF Hyperdrive and the TCS Keep Alive means the loco will keep running smoothly even if track power is shut off so no stalls. 

 

Now as to the performance. You are right that right out of the box the 64xx are no match for the 57xx. There was a lot of hitch in the gitty up and go especially in reverse. As I was running it in it suddenly came to an abrupt halt as the screw in the middle driver fell out. Fortunately I saw it land and was able to retrieve it. After disassembling the mechanism and some fiddling I managed to get the drivers quartered properly again and the screw seated all the way so it shouldn’t back out again anytime soon. However it is a good idea to check these on all your steam locos regularly. I think that the loco was put together with the drivers slightly out of quarter and the screw was a little loose.  

 

Another thing I noticed was the gears were a bit starved for grease so squirted some in there and also hit the motor bearings, wheel axles, and drive rods with some light oil. The loco now runs a lot better and I was able to consist it with a 57xx without any problems. It really is neat to hear the exhaust of the two locos slightly out of sync as they start up and pick up speed. Time for a video.

 

Larry Puckett

Contributing Editor

Model Railroader magazine

www.dccguy.com

Edited July 23, 2019 by Cofga

[The Johnster]

I have adopted as standard the practice of dismantling all my locos, new and secondhand, as soon as I acquire them and removing the existing lube whatever form it takes with a solid blast from a ratttlecan switch cleaner, which gets rid of most of it, and cleaning off any residue.  I then leave it overnight for the cleaner to evaporate off fully, before relubing to my own specs.  I use a non-mineral fine machine oil applied with a hypo.  

 

This is because, with a brand new model out of the box, you don't know how much of the grease has been applied or how long it's been there, and it 'goes off' hard over time.  I don't like it anyway, it attracts crud, but I fully understand why it is used; it meets fire prevention and insurance specs for shipping and storage.  With a secondhand model, it's simply good practice to do the same on the assumption that the previous owner hasn't lubed his model to my specification.  

 

As I've said previously, I no longer own a 64xx, but have had one, bought brand new.  The running, even after the above process, wasn't bad but I never really achieved reliable and smooth starting and stopping to or from very low speeds.  This is not the end of the world on a loco which I used exclusively on auto passenger work, but I appreciate the smoother starting and stopping of 45xx, 4575, 57xx/8750, and 56xx for goods and mineral work.  The mineral work is shared with a Hornby 42xx which is pretty good but not as smooth as my 56s, which will take some beating anywhere!

 

I never fathomed a reason for this.  The mech is fundamentally the same format as the 57xx, but always 'felt' stiffer.  I played with the keeper plate retaining screws and few other dodges, and improved considerably on the OOB performance, and she loosened up a little more with running in, but always let her passengers know when she was getting under way.  I passed her to a friend whose layout she was more suited to period wise, but I was reasonably happy with her for passenger work, and the running was not the reason for my disposing of her; my period ends in 1958 and 64xx were not used in my area until a year later.

 

 

[tomparryharry]

I'd be inclined to wonder if he slightly shorter wheelbase has some (pardon the pun) bearing on the issue. The 56xx, having that extra couple of mm, effectively covers the continuity gap. I also don't possess a 64xx, but if I had an autocoach, I definitely consider putting pick-ups on the whole ensemble. After all, modern diesel locomotive models pick up on all 12 wheels, so we're not exactly breaking new territory here. I have a DJM 48xx here, and it works fine, but it will have   an extended pick up arrangement, when I get a 'roundtowit'.  I'll probably get a set of pickups onto the radial truck of my 56xx's as well.

 

The late Ian Hollis always fitted extra pickups to his locomotives. Mind you, he didn't own a 64xx either..... 

 

The London Underground locomotives had additional pickups from the leading coach bogies to improve pickup. I wonder why....?

 

Have a great day, folks! 

[The Johnster]

As many pickups as possible and as much weight as possible will never do any harm to a model loco's performance, particularly on my layout which uses insulfrog Pecos.  My 64xx ran well enough in that regard; as i've said the shortcoming was in smooth starts and stops and it was ok for passenger work but never met my minimum performance requirements for goods or mineral shunting.  I would have thought DCC, which supplies 12v to the loco all the time if I understand it correctly, would have improved that.  We demand that DC locos perform perfectly smoothly at the lowest voltage that'll move them, which is exactly when the rolling resistance, gear and bearing friction, and any dirt in the pickup chain of events  will have it's greatest effect.  We are asking a lot, not far off pushing the engineering envelope limit of what is possible, and that volume produced RTR locos generally perform reasonably well in this regard is a credit to their design, production, and assembly.

 

I reckon even very good RTR can be improved on by a bit of fine tuning and tweaking, though, along with careful running in.  As well as the lubrication, all my locos are checked on acquisition for back to back, true and square running of wheels, pickup tension, and the keeper plate screws played with until they are Goldilocks, just right.  I also habitually trim the guard irons and check the 'drop' of coupling droppers and trim them if needed; you'd be surprised how often this is needed, and my track is laid very carefully and level.

 

I would not put extra pickups in the auto, however, unless the train was to be permanently coupled, and this is not permitted on my layout.  Auto locos have to be able to work ordinary trains if needed, or run around their auto trailers if I've decided there's a problem with the gear to enliven the timetable, and in any case I have more than one auto set and only one auto fitted loco, 5555.  Photos of Abergwynfi, the inspiration for Cwmdimbath, show several examples of auto trailers hauled by 57xx, and my conclusion is that Tondu never really had enough auto fitted locos to cover it's jobs, so conventionally hauled trailers are not an uncommon sight at Cwmdimbath.  The Gllfach Goch service, which involved a reversal, probably took priority.

 

I haven't put extra pickups on my 56s or small prairies either; they run fine without them.  I have put a set on the centre drivers of my Hornby 2721, though, one of many tweaks that turned this dog of an engine into something that could shunt properly; that's a story in itself, though!

Edited July 24, 2019 by The Johnster

[Cofga]

With DCC power continuity is even more important than with DC. If power is interrupted even for a millisec the little computer inside shuts off, the sound if installed stops, and with most decoders the loco will come to a halt them restart when power restores. On dirty track this translates into a stop, start, stop, start motion that can put cars all over the track. On a dead frog it usually ends with a total stop if the loco has a stiff short wheelbase such as these PTs. On my HO layout I power all frogs and all steam locos install stay alives. These keep the loco powered even if current is totally interrupted. TCS recently released  a pair of their Keep-Alive devices that are so small they will fit in almost any OO/HO locomotive. I have them in all my UK steam including the PTs and even in my Hatton/DJM 0-4-2.  Here is a photo of a sugar cube speaker and a TCS Keep-Alive installed in the pannier of one 0-6-0 along with the Soundtraxx decoder.

 

Larry Puckett

Contributing Editor

Model Railroader magazine

www.dccguy.com

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

As many pickups as possible and as much weight as possible will never do any harm to a model loco's performance, particularly on my layout which uses insulfrog Pecos.  My 64xx ran well enough in that regard; as i've said the shortcoming was in smooth starts and stops and it was ok for passenger work but never met my minimum performance requirements for goods or mineral shunting.  I would have thought DCC, which supplies 12v to the loco all the time if I understand it correctly, would have improved that.  We demand that DC locos perform perfectly smoothly at the lowest voltage that'll move them, which is exactly when the rolling resistance, gear and bearing friction, and any dirt in the pickup chain of events  will have it's greatest effect.  We are asking a lot, not far off pushing the engineering envelope limit of what is possible, and that volume produced RTR locos generally perform reasonably well in this regard is a credit to their design, production, and assembly.

 

I reckon even very good RTR can be improved on by a bit of fine tuning and tweaking, though, along with careful running in.  As well as the lubrication, all my locos are checked on acquisition for back to back, true and square running of wheels, pickup tension, and the keeper plate screws played with until they are Goldilocks, just right.  I also habitually trim the guard irons and check the 'drop' of coupling droppers and trim them if needed; you'd be surprised how often this is needed, and my track is laid very carefully and level.

 

I would not put extra pickups in the auto, however, unless the train was to be permanently coupled, and this is not permitted on my layout.  Auto locos have to be able to work ordinary trains if needed, or run around their auto trailers if I've decided there's a problem with the gear to enliven the timetable, and in any case I have more than one auto set and only one auto fitted loco, 5555.  Photos of Abergwynfi, the inspiration for Cwmdimbath, show several examples of auto trailers hauled by 57xx, and my conclusion is that Tondu never really had enough auto fitted locos to cover it's jobs, so conventionally hauled trailers are not an uncommon sight at Cwmdimbath.  The Gllfach Goch service, which involved a reversal, probably took priority.

 

I haven't put extra pickups on my 56s or small prairies either; they run fine without them.  I have put a set on the centre drivers of my Hornby 2721, though, one of many tweaks that turned this dog of an engine into something that could shunt properly; that's a story in itself, though!

 

3 minutes ago, Cofga said:

With DCC power continuity is even more important than with DC. If power is interrupted even for a millisec the little computer inside shuts off, the sound if installed stops, and with most decoders the loco will come to a halt them restart when power restores. On dirty track this translates into a stop, start, stop, start motion that can put cars all over the track. On a dead frog it usually ends with a total stop if the loco has a stiff short wheelbase such as these PTs. On my HO layout I power all frogs and all steam locos install stay alives. These keep the loco powered even if current is totally interrupted. TCS recently released  a pair of their Keep-Alive devices that are so small they will fit in almost any OO/HO locomotive. I have them in all my UK steam including the PTs and even in my Hatton/DJM 0-4-2.  Here is a photo of a sugar cube speaker and a TCS Keep-Alive installed in the pannier of one 0-6-0 along with the Soundtraxx decoder.

 

Larry Puckett

Contributing Editor

Model Railroader magazine

www.dccguy.com

 

Hello Larry, nice photos. I'm very much a DC Luddite, so I'd be looking at putting in a flywheel to smooth it all out. That said, I don't own a 64xx at present.  Welcome to the wonderful world of Great Western pannier tanks!

[The Johnster]

Flywheels are never a bad idea, either, but suffer from the same restriction of being least effective at low speeds and low bulk, which sounds like the  situation with a 64xx.  There’s not enough room in there to put one of sufficient heft in.  Stayalives are the answer for DCC, and many years ago I attempted to design something with diodes and capacitors for conventional DC. 

 

It didn’t werk... 

[Pinehill]

My two have run perfectly straight out of the box with no adjustments & before running in. No real noticeable improvement even after the recommended running in. Still OK after 9 months or so.

[melmerby]

Here is my 6407 travelling at a scale 4mph through a Peco Electrofrog medium radius and across some IRJs:

 

Forwards:

 

 

And in reverse:

 

 

It is fitted with a Lenz Silver Mini + decoder.

I do not use stay alives, clean track and wheels and all track & frogs wired means I don't get stalls

Edited July 24, 2019 by melmerby

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

...Stayalives are the answer for DCC, and many years ago I attempted to design something with diodes and capacitors for conventional DC... 

Actually the permanently 'full power' voltage on the track is the killer advantage of DCC. Your DC loco to go slow requires a very low voltage on the rails. The DCC loco is on 'full power' at all times and there is a small amount of energy storage on the decoder. Net effect, given the same care in wiring, track laying, cleanliness, efficient pick up, as found on a well sorted DC layout and its stock, DCC is near faultless in operation. So good, that the first slight stutter in movement is an indication of a problem to be sorted: high signal to noise ratio! (Usually a gob of greasy dirt on the tyre of a driven wheel, this is the one 'common cause' failure I have yet to identlfy the source(s) and rectify.)

 

I was really taken with the prospect of stay alive in the form of Lenz' item; but have never yet found a use for it. (Admittedly no four coupled tankies on my layout.) Everything starts first time with a near imperceptible creep into motion. Yes it does cost some extra, but so worth it...

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

(Usually a gob of greasy dirt

Have you eliminated plastic wheels and traction tyres from your stock?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

25 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Have you eliminated plastic wheels and traction tyres from your stock?

Not allowed those for over forty years! All metal, tyres and track. Careful minimal lubrication regime, regular rail drag to collect the majority of the dirt as soon as possible, cycle of traction and vehicle inspection to remove any dirt build up.

 

It's very infrequent 'droppings' from mechanisms beyond doubt, but I have yet to catch one 'in the act'. Is it all mechanisms can do it, or just some? Are there specific design factors that lead to this? I lubricate using the same materials on all 76 current mechanisms in use, but haven't pinned the source(s) of this one down. As a devotee of data driven closed loop problem correction, I am still looking for the data to eliminate this problem, so remain in reactive corrective action mode. There's a whole bone of my Ishikawa diagram waiting to be populated with the contributing factors...

 

It's only a model railway, but the inspiration of the late DR W Edwards Deming drives me on.

Edited July 25, 2019 by 34theletterbetweenB&D
Giving vent to full OCD expression

[The Johnster]

Hmm.  I don’t seem to suffer in this way at Cwmdimbath, touch wood he says tapping his forehead.   There are regular spots in the fiddle yard where a bit of unevenness has developed that carbon deposits build up on,  easily dealt with (cleaning fluid on a bit of hardboard, shiny side rubbed vigorously), but no oily/greasy muck.  

 

Sounds as if one or more of your mechs is throwing lube about.  Have a look in the inside of the keeper plates to see if any of them has become an oil tray. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎25‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 15:58, The Johnster said:

Sounds as if one or more of your mechs is throwing lube about.  Have a look in the inside of the keeper plates to see if any of them has become an oil tray. 

Done that inspection, in depth. It has to be more than one mechanism that's causing it as locos 'come and go' as I cycle through the six years as steam transitioned to diesel; with the result that through the cycle none of the locos present at the start are present at the end, yet the problem can occur at any point in the cycle. The locos run real distance as the circuit is a long run, 280 feet at present and to be yet longer in time.

 

My original suspicion was the diesel drives, but no evidence has yet been found, and I have had 'fresh droppings' in locations where diesels are completely absent. The tentative conclusion is that practically all mechanisms can do it, and it is just a case of stop and clean up the moment a slight stutter is observed. (An incident happens about once every five months, so it is slow going collecting the data. So far I have no loco on which it has happened twice, and only a third of the fleet have been affected. Strong suggestion that this means any mechanism can do it.)

[The Johnster]

Once every 5 months on a big layout with presumably heavy traffic, where locos run relatively long distances pulling heavy trains at speed, is a pretty good performance.  Higher speeds will inevitably mean that lube is more likely to be thrown about. 

 

It is more likely to be a particular design of mech that is the culprit than any individual loco.  My next suggestion is also probably something you’ve already done; turn the locos upside down and individually test them running at full power for a set period, say 5 minutes.  Cover the upside down chassis with a canopy made of white card or paper, and inspect the interior for oil stains after the ‘run’. 

 

This should identify any mechs that are misbehaving.