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Part of my 4mm scale layout includes a carriage cleaning section.

However I'm having great difficulty finding the cleaning staff for it. I do know there are some FALLER (150926) Carriage Cleaning Staff. But they have turned out to be all male. Now I don't mean to be sexist, but if you are modelling period times such terms go out of the window. And I do know that a carriage cleaning depot in Sheffield had over 1000 women to about 6 men. The men being employed to clear out the toilets or fill the tank up on the carriage or where in charge! 

So if anyone knows where I can source the female cleaners in OO/HO scale, even just women cleaning would do, please say so.:)

 

The period I'm modelling is 1966 to 69.

 

Most of the rest of the carriage cleaning section can be sourced with Ratio Kits. Such as 544 the ramps used to get onto the carriages.  The Ratio 527 Carriage Shed even resembles one that I am modelling! Only it's considerable longer!

 

The only other thing missing is the stand pipe Taps for water.  If you know of a source for them that would be good too! 

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The Ratio 419 Concrete Fence Post pack (which is part of their cattle dock kit) comes with 5 standpipes.

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Posted (edited)

I used a number of women from the Dart Castings range for Aberdeen Kirkhill:

 

The two land girls (MSV35 and MSV36) https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/montys/MSV35.php

https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/montys/MSV36.php

The 50s girl in cropped jeans, I changed her hair style/hat (MCV31) https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/montys/MCV31.php

Finally the teenage girl on phone, pretending it's a walkie-talkie (MNV9) https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/montys/MNV9.php

 

There may be others in the range you find more suitable for you era.

 

The water taps we used are GEM 4512, http://lytchettmanor.co.uk.websitebuilder.prositehosting.co.uk/lytchett-manor/oo-gauge-accessories (right click and view image for more detail). I rang them up and asked for a bulk order which they were only to pleased to supply but that was back in 2010 before the firm was sold.

Edited by Flood

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Posted (edited)

G'Day Folks

 

I was a carriage cleaner for a couple of years at Eastleigh, we didn't have tap stands, ours were under a metal plate on the walkway, the hose was hung over a part of the concrete walkway, but underneath. The hose was then pushed onto the tank water pipe on the end of the coach.

We had a mechanical train washing system, but in Frosty weather, hand wash washing was carried out with a long handled broom and a bucket.

 

manna

Edited by manna
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Modelu are very good, but you need to paint them.  Natural poses and a break from the rather formal and stiff figures we are used to.  Detail is exceptional; I have a goods guard whose overcoat is hanging open. No connection, satisfied customer. 

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I have a 3D printer, it seems crazy to go to a place where they print stuff, bit like taking coal to Newcastle!

If a place sells the files for me to print then I would go there.

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7 hours ago, Graham1960 said:

Thanks for all the comments so far, they are appreciated

 

Oh sorry, my mistake, It appears that you really can't be bothered showing us any gratitude.

 

No problem, I'll just ignore all of your posts from now on.

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2 hours ago, Flood said:

 

Oh sorry, my mistake, It appears that you really can't be bothered showing us any gratitude.

 

No problem, I'll just ignore all of your posts from now on.

I do thank all the contributors so far. I have checked some of the places out already, but none have anything useful. This is not the fault of those on here posting, but a gap in the market for those who make model figures. Female railway staff are sadly missing from the model world, more so than in the real world. Yet the same model companies can have sex workers and female nudes in abundance.

 

The prices charged for printing figures are silly, especially if they are plastic. Plastic is really cheap, that's why we are drowning in the stuff!! I suppose the design and scanning of real person, does put the cost up. I suspect most of the cost is precisely that. Which is why I said I wouldn't mind paying for the file(s) the figures are from. But I am not going to pay someone to print them out, when I can do about 100 figures for the cost of their single one!  

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The cost factor in 3D printing is not the raw material, which as you say is cheap and plentiful, but the cost of the printer.  You can buy 3D printers in PC World for a few hundred beer vouchers, but to do detailed work you need much more expensive machines that run well into 5 figure sums.  Producing and selling stuff made on them them to recoup the cost/repay the loan is subject to the economies of scale, which is a shame because they are ideally suited to short, even individual, production runs of niche demand items.  

 

The machines cannot produce volume quickly, either, and a complex print may take an hour or so per individual item.  A production run must be frequently checked for quality control, so you can't just set the printer to run a thousand carriage cleaners or whateveroff and go away and leave it.  

 

3D printing may well change the market and is already doing so, but the day when we can print off our own highly detailed product with a home machine connected to an online source are not here yet!  I have 3D products from Modelu as already mentioned and some bogies from Stafford Road Works/Shapeways with which I am very satisfied, but my wallet is happy that I don't have to equip a 12 coach train with bogies at £20 a pair.  In the case of my GW fishbelly bogies there is no other source that I am aware of, however, so it's a choice between expensive and none at all.  

 

Modulu's lamps are price comparable with Springside's cast whitemetal ones, however, and are a quality product.  I mount lamps on brackets and change them around, and Springside's have proved to have the edge in handling durability while the Modelus look better.  Both require work; the Modelus have to have their lenses glued in and have to be painted, while Springsides have to have a hole drilled in the bottom to accept my Rexel no.13 staple brackets.

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I have found that a £220 FDM printer can do detailed work. And that if I had the design files for say the Presier cleaning figures, It could knock out them in a few hours. Allowing for cooling time, you could easily knock out four or five of them per day.

However that is all academic, since you have to have the files to print anything. And for me that is the big thing at the moment. There's very little (at least British railways) material to get hold of. There's a bit more USA stuff and some continental designs out there.

GW bogies

 

If you mean these, then that £220 printer would easily knock them out in the detail shown, providing it has them in a form of a STL file, which is probably what the Shapeways printer uses. You might get a few what Airfix used to call "flashes", but they can be removed easily. If the item was split into parts that would speed up the printing no end.

 

The cost of the printer of course has to be covered, but the more stuff you can print out, you will quickly recover the cost.

One chap on YouTube managed to knock out the equivalent of the Peco Overall Roof. He had a large station and the Peco roof costs around £30. If he needed six roofs that would come to £180. I doubt you would use anywhere near 1KG of PLA to print them, currently costing around £12 per 1KG reel. So the saving made covers two thirds of the printer cost on one item.  

 

So I could print out cleaning figures very cheaply. I don't at present because I need a design to work to. And that is the only tricky bit in 3D printing at the moment. 

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Back to the carriage cleaners, and I'm thinking about the ladies at Canton in the 70s.  They were the hardest working staff we had, beyond question, hard as nails and tough as old boots, and tended to be stocky industrial strength girls, or skinny wiry ones, relatively short in stature and clad in overalls with knotted hankies (the girls, not the overalls) so there wasn't a lot of hair visible.  With the best will in the world none of them would have been your first choice to enter in a beauty contest, although it would have been a brave man that said this within their earshot.  With this in mind perhaps some subtly modified H0 workmen might be pressed into service...

 

Some of 'em were twice the man I'll ever be.

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55 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

...  the ladies at Canton in the 70s ... tended to be stocky industrial strength girls, or skinny wiry ones, relatively short in stature and clad in overalls with knotted hankies (the girls, not the overalls) so there wasn't a lot of hair visible.  With the best will in the world none of them would have been your first choice to enter in a beauty contest, although it would have been a brave man that said this within their earshot ... Some of 'em were twice the man I'll ever be.

 

I can well believe that.  Growing up in the 1950's. one of my pals' mum was a carriage cleaner at Cleethorpes and, like many of the neighbourhood kids, I was scared stiff of her.  Easily 6ft and built like the proverbial she was, with upper arms like Popeye's, and always dressed the same at home - headscarf worn turban- style, grey woolly cardigan over a wrap-round apron, stockings rolled down to her ankles and a pair of dead slippers.  Always a fag going, too.  But for work, she changed into a filthy dark blue boiler suit and a pair of ammo boots, accessorised with an ex-army gas mask bag containing her Thermos and sandwiches.

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Apart from the height (none of ours at Canton were up that depth) you've got it spot on!  The only thing those girls were scared of was the cats, and anyone with a brain cell is scared of a Canton shed cat.  You saw one of those on the path, you got out of it's way and were very deferential...  Murderous b*stards with larceny in their souls and thuggery on their minds.

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6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

With this in mind perhaps some subtly modified H0 workmen might be pressed into service...

 

Scalpel between the legs and some plasticine lumps on the chest do you mean?;):D

 

The cats didn't get run over by the trains then ?

Saw a cat on the news recently at a station. Seemed very friendly. Cats must be getting friendlier on the Railways these days!     

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Station cats depend on the kindness of staff and passengers, and know how to be cute and appealing.  Shed ratters, OTOH, live by pure brutality and savagery, red in toof’n’clore.  They were, at Canton, railway employees and the carriage cleaning foreman was responsible for their health and welfare, having a budget for vets and delousing of the things, bit there was nothing charming or attractive about them.  This is because they were employed to deal with the shed rats, 4 legged anyway, and a shed rat was only marginally less terrifying than a shed cat...

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G'Day Folks

 

Many a young secondman, were soundly rubbed up by the lady carriage cleaners at Hornsey, make a sailor blush.......

 

manna

 

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Posted (edited)
On 13/07/2019 at 18:57, The Johnster said:

The cost factor in 3D printing is not the raw material, which as you say is cheap and plentiful, but the cost of the printer.  You can buy 3D printers in PC World for a few hundred beer vouchers, but to do detailed work you need much more expensive machines that run well into 5 figure sums.  Producing and selling stuff made on them them to recoup the cost/repay the loan is subject to the economies of scale, which is a shame because they are ideally suited to short, even individual, production runs of niche demand items.  

 

The machines cannot produce volume quickly, either, and a complex print may take an hour or so per individual item.  A production run must be frequently checked for quality control, so you can't just set the printer to run a thousand carriage cleaners or whateveroff and go away and leave it.  

 

3D printing may well change the market and is already doing so, but the day when we can print off our own highly detailed product with a home machine connected to an online source are not here yet!  I have 3D products from Modelu as already mentioned and some bogies from Stafford Road Works/Shapeways with which I am very satisfied, but my wallet is happy that I don't have to equip a 12 coach train with bogies at £20 a pair.  In the case of my GW fishbelly bogies there is no other source that I am aware of, however, so it's a choice between expensive and none at all.  

 

Modulu's lamps are price comparable with Springside's cast whitemetal ones, however, and are a quality product.  I mount lamps on brackets and change them around, and Springside's have proved to have the edge in handling durability while the Modelus look better.  Both require work; the Modelus have to have their lenses glued in and have to be painted, while Springsides have to have a hole drilled in the bottom to accept my Rexel no.13 staple brackets.

 

Smaller resin printers like the photon available for low 3 figures can produce incredible detail, easily clearer and crisper  than white metal and up there with injection moulding. When combined with other technologies such as 3D scanning and photogrammetry the day is almost here when many high detailed parts can be pumped out at home very easily.

 

As an example, this memorial.

dixson.jpg.f8d5b8f278421bb7c24763e9328e5bb9.jpg

I took about 10 minutes to acquire a photoset  by walking around it and shooting off overlapping shots with a point and shoot camera. Put into a package called 3Dflow zephyr which has a free version which is suitable for this kind of thing I was able to produce a file which after hollowing out to save resin was sent to the printer. The detail that the software and the printer were able to reproduce was very impressive and I didn't need any tools other than a camera, laptop and printer. Even the angels trumpet came out. 

 

_statue.jpg.4f84e3ace97a6ffc512f52479c210a98.jpg

 

(I've still got to weather it and add the memorial plaques.)

 

As to slow print times, admittedly this in '0' scale is around 77mm tall and took about 7 hours to print but a quirk of the way that resin printers work means that if I filled the build area up with copies I could fit 15 of them, which would also take 7 hours to print. At 00 I could print  60 of them in under 4 hours. And anyway, if I was to build it from scratch I think the only way to do the figures would be by sculpting in DAS or similar, which would take me a lot longer than seven hours and probably look like a teletubby sitting on Mr Blobby.

 

Back to the original request, I've found that by putting various search terms into yeggi.com you sometimes come up with a result close to what you need. For instance looking for passengers I found a John Portillo to download for free.

johnb2.jpg.e9314ca5a2c15a692dd7da623ff17123.jpg

 

If you want a St Pancras to go over him, thats available for free too!

 

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:326822

 

Searching for female figures though does bring up interesting results,  many  3D artists  have a weird idea of what b00bs look like!

Edited by monkeysarefun

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5 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

Smaller resin printers like the photon available for low 3 figures can produce incredible detail, easily clearer and crisper  than white metal and up there with injection moulding. When combined with other technologies such as 3D scanning and photogrammetry the day is almost here when many high detailed parts can be pumped out at home very easily.

 

As an example, this memorial.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_07/dixson.jpg.f8d5b8f278421bb7c24763e9328e5bb9.jpg

I took about 10 minutes to acquire a photoset  by walking around it and shooting off overlapping shots with a point and shoot camera. Put into a package called 3Dflow zephyr which has a free version which is suitable for this kind of thing I was able to produce a file which after hollowing out to save resin was sent to the printer. The detail that the software and the printer were able to reproduce was very impressive and I didn't need any tools other than a camera, laptop and printer. Even the angels trumpet came out. 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_07/_statue.jpg.4f84e3ace97a6ffc512f52479c210a98.jpg

 

(I've still got to weather it and add the memorial plaques.)

 

As to slow print times, admittedly this in '0' scale is around 77mm tall and took about 7 hours to print but a quirk of the way that resin printers work means that if I filled the build area up with copies I could fit 15 of them, which would also take 7 hours to print. At 00 I could print  60 of them in under 4 hours. And anyway, if I was to build it from scratch I think the only way to do the figures would be by sculpting in DAS or similar, which would take me a lot longer than seven hours and probably look like a teletubby sitting on Mr Blobby.

 

Back to the original request, I've found that by putting various search terms into yeggi.com you sometimes come up with a result close to what you need. For instance looking for passengers I found a John Portillo to download for free.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_07/johnb2.jpg.e9314ca5a2c15a692dd7da623ff17123.jpg

 

If you want a St Pancras to go over him, thats available for free too!

 

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:326822

 

Searching for female figures though does bring up interesting results,  many  3D artists  have a weird idea of what b00bs look like!

Hi

 

I like the 3D printed ideas. I do like having a go at making my own people out of Miliput. Young ladies being ignored by trainspotters..."well there trains it there."

100_5461a.jpg.fc8053605306a226c46b9736b340b463.jpg

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Add the price of a 3d scanner to the Modelu overheads, probably a grand or two and the time to learn how to use it effectively and then modifying the results into something that the printer can handle and I would say that a 4mm figure at £3 is quite reasonable.

 

If you don't want to splash the cash on off the shelf products,  you will have to invest the time in learning to do 3d sculpting and probably the purchase of suitable software.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Female figures are significantly different from male ones, and I for one am very glad that this is the case, but when it comes to sub-0 gauge modelling and assuming we are talking about fully clothed figures, they are not radically different in most cases.  I model the 1950s in the South Wales valleys, and have very few figures on my layout, all male railway staff bar a brown dustcoated supervisor with a clipboard on a private factory platform, because my contention is that, at a small BLT such as mine where everybody in the village knows the timetable anyway and can hear the train approaching (it has to blast it's way up a steep bank), nobody hangs around on the platform waiting for it and they stay indoors out of the rain as much as they can.  There are a few ladies in my coaches, but I've toned the colours of their clothing down a lot!

 

There is little room for modelling the village or the street outside the station, so not much opportunity for the inclusion of ladies, but for a 1950s working class area you are looking for short, dumpy, and wearing a hat concealing all the hair for both sexes.  This means that the main difference is that women wear dresses and carry big shopping bags.  The differences are even less pronounced if everybody is wearing a coat, which 1950s people always did unless the weather was really warm.   Your going up the pub suit was probably demob, and it probably did for chapel for a lot of people as well!  Women by and large did not wear clothes that accentuated their attributes unless they didn't care for the approbation of society, which was considerable; I can remember my own mum saying that a girl from the next street was 'no better than she ought to be' because she wore tight jeans; this was in the mid 60s.

 

The RTP trade doesn't really cater for this.  1950s figures tend to be suited, tall, men in bowlers with umbrellas and briefcases (the men, not the bowlers), and smartly dressed ladies who look as if they work in offices; ideal for the London commuter belt but not many people looked like that in the Valleys, or, I imagine, most of the Midlands, North West, or North East of England, not to mention the populous parts of Scotland!  Everybody looks much too healthy and wealthy; I want something a bit more stooped and oppressed.  Clothing colours of RTP painted figures seem too bright to me; clothes in those days were much plainer and more hardwearing, especially mens' but women's were pretty grim as well.  Everybody wore hats except that some women wore headscarves.

 

Not until 1956 and the invention of the teenager as a category of customer with disposable income was this challenged, and I would contend that it was at least another decade before it made much impression on the those poor plastic souls endlessly waiting for trains on 00 platforms.  Female workers such as carriage cleaners in overalls with knotted hankies on their heads (the carriage cleaners, not the overalls) were rare but essential if you have carriage sidings of course.  But you can still get away with it a bit, as most of the time they are inside their cabin with a cup of tea, or inside the carriages working,  Their presence might be suggested by a mop and bucket by a carriage door, which in a perfect world is left open.  The outside washing tended to be done by male C & W staff, at least at Canton; by my time we had a carriage washing plant, but the buckets and ladders came out if it froze or during the water shortages of 1976.

Edited by The Johnster

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3 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Add the price of a 3d scanner to the Modelu overheads, probably a grand or two and the time to learn how to use it effectively and then modifying the results into something that the printer can handle and I would say that a 4mm figure at £3 is quite reasonable.

 

If you don't want to splash the cash on off the shelf products,  you will have to invest the time in learning to do 3d sculpting and probably the purchase of suitable software.

 

 

There's nothing to stop the likes of Modelu from letting us with 3D printers having the files for a fee of course. Several companies offer PDF files of Cardboard models, which you can buy. Then you print off as many as yourself. So the idea is not new. Of course maybe the 3D printer you have might not be able to do the fine detail you want, in which case you then can go back to the firm and say print me these. But in my case I want to try my own first.

The thing that's special about model figures is that you need a lot generally. Whereas that sculpture is likely to be a one off. If the company charges £3 a figure and you need 50 that's going to really cost you. But say they charged £12 for the file and from that you can print out the figures then at your expense, more people would be interested in the product. Whereas the sculpture costing £5 to £10 to print, would be worth doing direct from them. 

 

Clive I had never heard of Miliput before your post here. That sounds interesting. Clearly if you are going to make a figure with it, that would require a mould? So how would you set about that?

For example could you take a current plastic figure or object, press it into a plasticine or putty. Then pore the Miliput into it. Repeat with the other side of the figure or object to get two halves and glue them together? 

 

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Sorry mate 

 

Are you in the real world

 

If I have spent a lot of time in learning the process to manufacture figures or anything else, plus the cost in the the equipment to manufacture said items.

 

Plus premises and normal business overheads am I really going to sell you the files so you could rip me off

 

Would Dapol sell you files for any of the plastic kits they purchased from Airfix ?

 

Will any of the producers who sell you the sound files for your new Loco ?

 

No because they have invested there money to create a business to pay the mortgage and put food on the table.

 

Eltel  

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Carriage cleaners?

 

In a word: terrifying!

 

If you can find some ancient British warrior figure-sets in a wargaming shop that include Boudicca and a few of her sisters in full-on Roman-killing mode, they should do fine.

 

You could simply replace weapons with brooms and huge dustpans, and the long poles that they used to close windows with as trains ran towards the washing machine.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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