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Tony Teague

LB&SCR E4X tanks - two questions!

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I am currently attempting to complete an E4-X loco in 4mm using a Bachmann E4 chassis and a Shapeways 3D printed body, but I am having trouble finding source material that covers two questions:

 

1. I model in the period 1938 - 48; by this time, were the E4-X locos fitted with side clack valves? There is a suggestion that when the larger boilers were fitted to these locos the clacks were under the boiler and so invisible. Pictures in LB&SCR livery show this but later, BR pictures show side clack valves; the classic sources are silent as to when these were fitted.

 

2. The SR first painted all of the E4's and E4-X's in olive passenger livery, later they were in BR black, but what happened in between? Did some or all of the E4-X's go through wartime black or even malachite? I cannot find a single picture of an E4-X in either of these liveries yet they appear to be most likely for my era.

 

Any help greatly appreciated!

 

Tony

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Im not familiar with the  E4X but certainly some other Brighton classes would carry boilers which could be from different batches built over the years.  The  E1's which I have been looking at had 4 different boilers for which I have found drawings for,  two of these had side mounted clacks,  one had backhead mounted injectors/clacks and the last had fittings  & pipework  for both options.  What a specific loco carried on a given date would depend on what was available when overhauled. 

Wartime photos are obviously rare and postwar film was difficult to obtain hence Malachite era photos are not common.

Wartime repaints would initially be in unlined Olive, then later overall Black but some locos may well have still been in lined Olive by the wars end.  Malachite would then be likely but I cannot confirm this.

 

Pete

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Pete

Thanks for responding; I think you have illustrated my problem!

I am keen to get it right, but sometimes that is pretty difficult!

 

Tony

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Pics of I1s, whose boiler was shared with E4x, also seem to vary with/without side-clacks. If you have found an E4x pic that suits, roll with it. There were only 4!

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I've done a bit of a Google search for the 4 locos and found a few photos but they're on PicClick so  here's a link to avoid any copyright issues: https://picclick.co.uk/Photo-Sr-Class-E4X-Loco-No-2478-192878232017.html

 

 

2478 definitely fitted with side clack valves in photos and in olive green.

32477 had them in 1949 with British Railways lettering on the tanks (possibly in black) so fair chance it had them in Southern days. 

2466 https://www.flickr.com/photos/sydhank/16526579616/  in olive green

 

Just a few of the photos I found

 

 

 

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Thanks Gareth

 

All pics are helpful and I hadn't found these.

Looks like I need to fit the side clacks!

 

Tony

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E4Xs never qualified for malachite green - they'd have gone from lined Maunsell green to plain black unless one of the interim liveries was applied : details would be in the Livery Register.

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9 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

E4Xs never qualified for malachite green - they'd have gone from lined Maunsell green to plain black unless one of the interim liveries was applied : details would be in the Livery Register.

 

Many thanks, but excuse my ignorance - what is or where is the "Livery Register"?

 

Tony

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11 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

 

Many thanks, but excuse my ignorance - what is or where is the "Livery Register"?

 

Tony

I think he means the HMRS publication from about 1970, recently updated. It covers LSWR and SR liveries, with paint samples, although some of those from the original edition have subsequently been discredited, I believe. 

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23 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I think he means the HMRS publication from about 1970, recently updated. It covers LSWR and SR liveries, with paint samples, although some of those from the original edition have subsequently been discredited, I believe. 

 

Thanks for clarifying, and if that is what is meant, then I have the updated HMRS volumes; unfortunately those available so far cover LSWR, LB&SCR and BR(S) post-nationalisation, so my SR grouping era is currently missing! However, I also have the Ian Allan / Brian Haresnape volume on Railway Liveries - Southern Railway, which helps.

 

What I had hope was that what Wickham Green meant, was that there was a register somewhere which would tell which livery was applied to each loco and when - and whilst this is covered in volumes such as Irwell Press' "The Book of the XXX", they don't reach to the humble tank engine!

 

I think that in the absence of further info I am likely to plump for wartime black with sunshine lettering as being the most likely option for my period, but who knows!

 

Tony

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I am not clear to what extent the livery register words and data have been subsumed into the more detailed publications you mention. I see the 1970 volume is now just 2 quid, and the addendum ( which I don't have) is another pound. As it does cover the Southern period, you might think of obtaining a copy.

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Yes, I was referring to the original 1970 volume ( https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-livery-register-no-3-lswr-and-southern-150201.html ) which lists the locos that survived the war in Maunsell livery, and those that received various permutations of Maunsell green, malachite green, or 'Dover' green with/without black/white or black/yellow lining shortly before the war ......... I guess John Harvey is still trying to untangle this to 'update' the grouping-period volume of the new series. [ The 1990 Addendum poured serious doubt on the veracity of the colour sample offered for malachite green in 1970 but - unless an E4X received one of the pre-war 'experimental' livery combinations - that's not relevant to this conversation.]

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5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I am not clear to what extent the livery register words and data have been subsumed into the more detailed publications you mention. I see the 1970 volume is now just 2 quid, and the addendum ( which I don't have) is another pound. As it does cover the Southern period, you might think of obtaining a copy.

 

5 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Yes, I was referring to the original 1970 volume ( https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-livery-register-no-3-lswr-and-southern-150201.html ) which lists the locos that survived the war in Maunsell livery, and those that received various permutations of Maunsell green, malachite green, or 'Dover' green with/without black/white or black/yellow lining shortly before the war ......... I guess John Harvey is still trying to untangle this to 'update' the grouping-period volume of the new series. [ The 1990 Addendum poured serious doubt on the veracity of the colour sample offered for malachite green in 1970 but - unless an E4X received one of the pre-war 'experimental' livery combinations - that's not relevant to this conversation.]

 

Thanks both, thats very helpful

Tony

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Had a chance to check the 1970 Livery Register and can confirm that no E4x was painted any shade of green during Bulleid's tenure ....... a couple of E4s received unlined Maunsell green with Bulleid lettering tho.

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