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CL74 ?


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I wonder if Hornby May be tempted to take up the CL74 now that the DJM model is dead and buried. I assume the CL71 chassis is an almost exact swap between the 71 and 74 so it would be a logical step...Or am I being too simplistic regarding this.

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Would you believe it, I post this, then start reading the online BRM only to see Silver Fox are doing a RTR or kit version. Doh!

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It’s a question prompting some thought. I really can’t see Hornby wanting to produce a 74 when the DJM proposal was cancelled because of lack of interest. It is relevant that the 74 was cancelled before major concerns about DJM emerged.

 

Then, if Hornby were to produce a 74 to the same standard as the 71, would we want it? Very difficult to fit a decoder, never mind a speaker and Hornby’s stick-on headcodes  look very cheap compared to the DJM 71. Judging by more recent models, such as the 87, Hornby has been left behind when it comes to lighting control and provision for decoders.

 

Correct me if I’m wrong but the Silver Fox model is mounted on an old Hornby chassis. We could expect the pancake motor to work well, even if traction tyres limit pickup, and there should be plenty of room for a decoder and speaker. No lights, though. For the money you pay for the RTR version, you would not get something equivalent to a Bachmann or even a Hornby model. Nevertheless, if you have to have a 74, Silver Fox is the easiest and quickest way to get one.

 

It hasn’t escaped my notice that Silver Fox offers gas turbines as well. If you do take the plunge, I’d be very interested in what you think of the model.

 

 

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3 hours ago, No Decorum said:

It’s a question prompting some thought. I really can’t see Hornby wanting to produce a 74 when the DJM proposal was cancelled because of lack of interest. It is relevant that the 74 was cancelled before major concerns about DJM emerged.

 

 

The DJM 74 was cancelled because Kernow pulled the plug on it.  The reasons have not been made public but dissatisfaction with DJM's handling of the project has been cited by many observers as a likely reason rather than lack of demand.  The 74, being an ED, did operate away from the third rail (eg to Acton) and so might potentially have a wider appeal than the electric only 71 (which Hornby clearly felt was commercially viable) and so it might be a candidate at some point.

 

I appreciate the Silver Fox offering is the only game in town at present and has its advocates but to my usually fairly uncritical eyes it does look clunky and lacking in finesse.

Edited by DY444
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Elsewhere on RMweb thereis a thread about this, however I forget where!

 

An option pursued by some, including Keir Hardy of "Hornsey Broadway", is to use the innards of a Hornby 71, and also the cabs of same, attached to the main Silver Fox bodyshell. This may be the best way forward, particularly if you can find a fairly cheap 71 on ebay.

 

John.

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1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

Then, if Hornby were to produce a 74 to the same standard as the 71, would we want it? Very difficult to fit a decoder, never mind a speaker and Hornby’s stick-on headcodes  look very cheap compared to the DJM 71. Judging by more recent models, such as the 87, Hornby has been left behind when it comes to lighting control and provision for decoders. 

 

Although the Hornby one does have the advantage of being the right shape from front-on view.... For a model that was allegedly scanned I don't know how DJM managed to get it so wrong. Perhaps that was why orders were not forthcoming for the 74, once people had seen his 71?

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I really don't see Hornby producing the Class 74...!

 

I don't think there's sufficient demand for multiple runs, unlike a crowdfunded model which can be funded for and produced in one batch.

 

The Class 71s seem to be slow sellers, that might stop them from doing the Class 74.

 

There's other models that will probably sell far better than a Class 74 and probably cost lesser to produce.

 

The Class 74 cannot share tooling with the Class 71. At best the CAD can either be drawn from scratch and/or modified from the existing Class 71 CAD. Beyond that the actual tooling cannot be shared. This will result in different tools wearing out at different paces.

 

It's also not set in stone that one factory will build both models, so tooling cannot be shared.

 

 

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5 hours ago, DY444 said:

The DJM 74 was cancelled because Kernow pulled the plug on it. 

 

And Kernow pulled the plug on it because, perhaps amongst other reasons, 2 1/2 years on it had made no progress because of insufficient interest.

 

Like anything in this hobby when it comes to making models we don't have all the details, but if one assumes DJModels was correct with the statement that the Class 71 tooling was done such that a Class 74 could be done as well with a small(?) amount of additional tooling, and if there were insufficient orders given the then lower necessary threshold to make the project viable, then the idea of Hornby doing a Class 74 would seem to be remote.

 

Perhaps in the future, when Hornby's finances are healthier, they may revisit the idea but I suspect for now anyone wanting a Class 74 is looking at a kit or a kitbash.

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I think as far as this thread is concerned -  Home - Trade & Products Zone - Products & Trade area - Hornby - CL74 ?  there's very little chance of it happening, as any CAD work would involve starting from scratch. Apart from the cabs, there's very little in common between the Class 74 and the Class 71, believe it or not!  With just one livery (options of different numbers TOPS & pre-TOPS), there's not much of a viable return in investment for such a limited RTR model.

 

So, as Jools has just asked in the previous post, I don't think a kit bash would be easy at all, especially as there's a reasonably good resin bodied kit available from DC Kits & Silver Fox. That doesn't mean a hybrid convo' makes things much easier, but perhaps a little bit.

 

Instead of two parallel threads, it may be prudent to merge the two into -  Home - Modelling Zone - Skills & Knowledge Centre - Kitbuilding & Scratchbuilding - Class 74

 

Link above in post #8.   

 

What do you think?

 

 

 

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Surely the sales potential of the 74 is related to its success as a prototype? We buy models of locos that did well in the real railway, don't we? And 74 was a pure-bred doggie. Yet another example of the Southern (both Railway and Region) intent to waste nothing. With all those 71s sitting at Hither Green and elsewhere under-employed, why not stick a diesel in there and make a Big EDL? After all, the 73s, then and now, were a cracking success. But the 74s, for reasons no doubt explained in multiple historic exposés, were a technical disappointment. 

 

So the market is broadly limited to those keen on Southern Region in a post-67 timeframe, and those interested in a Cross-London model from the same era. Each is utterly legit - but hardly mainstream compared to, say, GWR branches?

 

Who is gonna buy?

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2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Surely the sales potential of the 74 is related to its success as a prototype? We buy models of locos that did well in the real railway, don't we? And 74 was a pure-bred doggie. Yet another example of the Southern (both Railway and Region) intent to waste nothing. With all those 71s sitting at Hither Green and elsewhere under-employed, why not stick a diesel in there and make a Big EDL? After all, the 73s, then and now, were a cracking success. But the 74s, for reasons no doubt explained in multiple historic exposés, were a technical disappointment. 

 

So the market is broadly limited to those keen on Southern Region in a post-67 timeframe, and those interested in a Cross-London model from the same era. Each is utterly legit - but hardly mainstream compared to, say, GWR branches?

 

Who is gonna buy?

 

Nope. We often buy things because we like them. Otherwise you would just have layouts populated with things like Black Fives, BR Mark Ones and 16 Ton mineral wagons. Three of the most successful designs of the steam era. Throw in an 08 and a 47 for good measure. You could run most railways with a DMU or EMU.

 

The idea that people only buy things because they worked on the railway line they are modelling in the correct era is a bit flawed. If you look at the RTR section the same people are buying Class 68s and Terriers. It's a buyers market and a bit like Pokémon with some, You've got to catch them all!

 

Possibly the best RTR model ever produced, the Rapido APT. Was the prototype successful? Not really as it never entered passenger carrying service. Was it iconic? Definitely. I would put the 71s and 74s in that category. They are something a bit different. Bordering on iconic. One was deemed worthy of saving by the NRM unlike most other diesel and electric locomotives at the time.

 

Getting back to 71s and 74s. I think most people would only want one. Does the average buyer want another locomotive that looks virtually the same? Probably not. Unless you are someone who models the Southern in the 1960s and early 1970s. Funnily enough I am and will go down the kit route.

 

Personally I feel a RTR Class 74 is not a goer now. I think that opportunity has gone.

 

 

 

Jason

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8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Surely the sales potential of the 74 is related to its success as a prototype? We buy models of locos that did well in the real railway, don't we? And 74 was a pure-bred doggie. Yet another example of the Southern (both Railway and Region) intent to waste nothing. With all those 71s sitting at Hither Green and elsewhere under-employed, why not stick a diesel in there and make a Big EDL? After all, the 73s, then and now, were a cracking success. But the 74s, for reasons no doubt explained in multiple historic exposés, were a technical disappointment. 

 

So the market is broadly limited to those keen on Southern Region in a post-67 timeframe, and those interested in a Cross-London model from the same era. Each is utterly legit - but hardly mainstream compared to, say, GWR branches?

 

Who is gonna buy?


I agree with you about the limited potential of the 74, but as to buying successful locos: Heljan seem to have made a killing selling models of the unsuccessful ones, like the classes 15, 16 and 17. Hatton's did fairly well with the class 14 (commissioned from Heljan), albeit with a few liveries not selling so well. You could also count the prototype diesels as being 'unsuccessful' in one sense, but Hejan once again came to fore with models of Lion, Falcon, Kestrel, and DP2. Arguably, Falcon was successful because BR bought it and soldiered on with it, and DP2 would have been counted as successful if it hadn't been written off in that nasty accident through no fault of its own (or of its crew),

For some reason, we modellers seem to like models of the one-off and limited prototypes with small numbers, so much so that there are far more models of these running around than there were actual prototypes. With all that in mind, maybe the class 74 could be viable, maybe not. We are also a fickle lot! :D

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I suppose when all is said and done it is variations of appearance and liveries that would drive any plans, plus I suppose how iconic the loco was.There is plenty of evidence to show that many (diesel/electric) locos only had one or two liveries in their lifetime, some were one off prototypes with iconic liveries (Lion) and some were both time and area of work limited. I have a Class 71, I have no need for it on any layout I run, I just happen to like it. I believe there are probably enough SR modellers in the country to satisfy a small run, but that would probably not be something Hornby would take on. I suppose Kernow are possibly the only ones who would but they had their fingers burned with DJM. My model collection is littered with one offs that do not fit into my chosen layouts (Cornish China Clay and Oxfordshire Ironstone) But that would not stop me buying something I like. 

A few years ago who would have predicted that we would have DP1 and 2 LMS twins, Lion, Falcon, Kestrel, Breyer Garrett, P2, Duke of Gloucester, APT-E etc etc. It’s a case of unlikely, but never say never.

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Hi,

 

I'm not sure if the financial problems of DJ Models makes the production of a Class 74 more or less likely.

 

Unfortunately the only company with a chassis that largely suits the class 74 is Hornby with their Class 71 but they haven't gone in for small, short lived loco classes of late as far as I can recall.

 

I'm not convinced by the photos I've seen of the body profile of the Silver Fox body of the Class 74 but I may buy one just to find out.

I've found making very fine grills with thin surrounds a problem with scratchbuilding diesels.

A technical solution for kitbashers might be a thin etched body wrap to be applied to a sanded down Hornby Class 71 body (with the pantograph well filled in first*).

This might be cheaper than a 3D printed body that was of good enough quality to represent the grills and not show the printing steps/levels.

 

* might be able to use the pantograph well to fit a diesel smoke generator in an attempt to represent the horrid looking black smoke the Class 74s produced on switching to diesel.


I'd like a OO Class 74 for Beggarwood Lane (see RMWeb topic) so my layout group can run class 74 hauled trains up the 1 in 40 non electrified incline on the layout (probably slowly as the 74s only had a small diesel engine).

 

I have a Hornby 71 which has a damaged gear train on one of the bogie gear towers so that may provide a source of parts (the incline is fitted with DCC Concepts Powerbase so a Class 71 chassis with only 4 wheel drive might be able to haul a reasonable length train once it is fitted with DCC Concepts Powerbase magnets).

I also have a DJ Models Class 71 but that wont go round third radius curves and is too slow even for light engine moves.

 

Regards

 

Nick

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As a proud owner of the Silver fox rtr model, i find it a dream.

its got the railroad 90 chassis in it (not the pancake), which has nothing wrong with it.

 

it comes with correct bogie side frames, under frame detail fitted, with an Excellant paint job, all for £150, less than the rrp of most new models.

 

I cant imagine anyone else making a 74, one livery, small class, short time period, restricted range to operate in.

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On 13/07/2019 at 22:30, Right Away said:

Perhaps the 3 Bulleid/Raworth electric locos might be worthy of consideration for a commission. Typically "boxy" looking, but the bogie detail would be a gem.

Ah - yes  - a 'Hornby' ! ................ unfortunately the ( current ) model manufacturer of that name don't have any of the 1-Co-Co-1 diesels that - more or less - shared the same bogies in their repertoire. 

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If there's a business out there that can make a good model of a class 74 - or anything else that ran on rails - I suspect it would sell. Irresistible to comment on this:

On ‎14‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 04:06, SRman said:

...we modellers seem to like models of the one-off and limited prototypes with small numbers, so much so that there are far more models of these running around than there were actual prototypes...

That while this is true, so also I suspect is: we modellers seem to like models of the one-off and limited prototypes with small numbers, so much so that there are far more models of these running around than there were actual prototypes...

 

We like models. Make a good one, and 'they will come'. Probably best to wait a good while until there are no new 71s kicking around, in this case.

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49 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

If there's a business out there that can make a good model of a class 74 - or anything else that ran on rails - I suspect it would sell. Irresistible to comment on this:

That while this is true, so also I suspect is: we modellers seem to like models of the one-off and limited prototypes with small numbers, so much so that there are far more models of these running around than there were actual prototypes...

 

We like models. Make a good one, and 'they will come'. Probably best to wait a good while until there are no new 71s kicking around, in this case.

I wish you were right but I have my doubts. Heljan, all praise, gave me a taste for prototypes but then disappeared into 0 gauge leaving me high and dry with, I admit, quite a few nice prototypes but still missing quite a few. Falcon sold well. It was marketed as a limited edition and it was almost amusing to see Heljan struggling to find slight variations in order to produce more “limited editions” to meet demand. I can only guess that demand for prototypes fell away for some reason, leading to Heljan looking for pastures new. I would dearly love to be proved wrong but I suspect that the cancellation of the DJ 74 does indicate that there isn’t enough demand to justify a manufacturer taking it on.

 

If Hornby were to take it on, it would have to be a lot better than the 71. The basics are good. Smooth, quiet and powerful motor and nice finish but sticky headcodes and poor lighting control let it down. Not everyone goes for DCC but those that do will be exasperated. It surely can’t cost anything to provide space for an after-market sound decoder and speaker if designed in from the outset and a little money spent on good lighting options would hardly break the bank.

 

It rather leaves the field open for Kernow. Just look at how popular their Bulleid diesels have turned out to be. Could Kernow make a success of a 74? What about the electric 70s, gas turbines and (I expect a chorus of derision) a Fell?

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