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pre-gouping Scottish 4-4-0s (most of the time)


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  So I figured that as my build of North British Railway #256 Glen Douglas is very much a scratchbuild - loco body and tender scratchbuilt, on a cut down B12 chassis - it would be more suitable to put the build in a topic here that in my workbench feed in Modifying and Detailing RTR stock   

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134921-caley-439s-workbench/

 

I also plan to build a model of Great North of Scotland Railway #49 Gordon Highlander and there will no doubt be future pre-grouping builds as a Dunalastair of some sort would be nice as well as the numerous 0-6-0s etc.

 

The modifying of the chassis is based on the method used by Londontram when building his Caledonian 4-4-0s - this had the dangerous impact of giving me the confidence that I could maybe do something similar

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92190-steves-caledonian-loco-work-bench/

 

I'm aware that the wheels of the B12 are rather different design from the prototypes I am building, but they're close enough to the correct size and I'll probably eventually replace them in the distant future. Hopefully it won't be too obvious 

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As a result of some work with the pillar drill tonight the tender frames now have wheels running quite happily between them.  Whilst working on the tender body I realised that I'm going to need to go and get a few pictures of Glen Douglas in current condition as the drawings I'm using state that the coal plate was added by the LNER to the tenders and I'm wondering if this was removed or left in place when restored in 1959 (some bits such as the wing plate on the smokebox were reinstated for example) 

 

The next few days will probably see the splashers started and more work done on the tender - the axleboxes are going to be interesting as usually this is the sort of thing I would laser cut or 3D print but I don't have access to these machines until September at the earliest.  That said I have a good idea of how to do it in layers of plastic card.  The rest of the tender should be fairly simple once suitable buffers are sourced and a trip to the Riverside Museum has been undertaken to check necessary details.  

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9 minutes ago, Caley 439 said:

Hi Gibbo, don't have a B12 body to use - I ordered just the chassis 

I was wondering if there was to be a degree of cut and shut to the build, better that it will more scratch built though.

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Is that really a B12 Chassis?  10ft wheelbase?   It doesn't look like any B12 I have ever seen before.

I have a shortened B12 body on a Triang L1 4-4-0  chassis masquerading first as a B16  and later as Edward from Thomas the tank and I see distinct possibilities for another rebuild into a Glen...

The extra 2mm on wheelbase is going to mean awkward compromised at the cab end end unless thewhole loco is lengthened 2mm or so.     I would use the tiny Hornby Mlk 7 motor and hack the rear of the chassis aggressively to allow a detailed cab interior

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52 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Is that really a B12 Chassis?  10ft wheelbase?   It doesn't look like any B12 I have ever seen before.

I have a shortened B12 body on a Triang L1 4-4-0  chassis masquerading first as a B16  and later as Edward from Thomas the tank and I see distinct possibilities for another rebuild into a Glen...

The extra 2mm on wheelbase is going to mean awkward compromised at the cab end end unless thewhole loco is lengthened 2mm or so.     I would use the tiny Hornby Mlk 7 motor and hack the rear of the chassis aggressively to allow a detailed cab interior

Hi David,

 

Thinking out-loud, and also with no experience of such a chassis, but what about the M7 type chassis reversed ?

The fixed bogie and driving wheel bases may be moved closer or further apart and must fit some prototype or other some where along the way.

 

As for the extra 2mm, I shall be flippant and say what is six inches between friends.

 

Gibbo.

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Hi,

The original GEM white metal kit for the Glen used the Triang L1 chassis and was stretched slightly to allow the L1 10ft wheelbase. Mostly no one noticed. Although my friend Pete Westwater who produced the drawing you are using said that for a Scott you really needed 9ft 6 chassis as the larger wheels needed the draw plate to be that much further back and by that point the extra 2mm was starting to show.  The little GNofS locos will need a shorter wheelbase though but the Caley 4-4-0s might go on the 10ft wheelbase. The last of the series, the Pickersgill design certainly does.

Back in the mists of time I produced brass patterns for Nu Cast white metal kits and we did two classes of GNofS (including Gordon Highlander) and the Caley Pickersgill  so I will watch your scratch building of these types with interest.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

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7 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Is that really a B12 Chassis?  10ft wheelbase?   It doesn't look like any B12 I have ever seen before.

 

 

Hi David it's a B12 chassis that's been cut down - I've attached a picture of it after drilling the hole for the rear set of wheels, aft of what is the middle wheel set on the B12. The pencil line which is visible is where later the rear of the chassis was cut off.

 

I did consider using an M7 chassis Gibbo but they're not the easiest to find (did find some Triang-Hornby ones, but more than I wanted to spend) and the L1 chassis seems even more difficult to find. I do agree that the 2mm difference is not too much to worry about though if I scratchbuild a J (Scott) class in future I will probably give it the slightly larger wheelbase :jester: 

 

Hi Ian, thanks to LNER Encyclopedia I've found that the overall wheelbase difference is 3 and a bit feet and 2 and a bit for just the loco between the D34 and D40 so it will be an interesting one trying to fit the bogie (with larger wheels) in.  I've altered the chassis for the Glen so that it is a 9' 6" wheelbase for the driving wheels, will try and get back to Bo'ness to measure the driving and bogie wheelbases of Gordon Highlander as when I went last time I found that I had left my measuring tape on the side at home - nonetheless I did get lots of useful pictures

 

I'll put up some pictures of the North British tender later tonight, as just now the glue is drying.  Come quite far today, who knows in a few days might be applying the first coat of paint :D.  The bit I'm not looking forward to is making the springs!

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As promised:  

 

  The first image is the start of the hornblock/axlebox detail.  So they would stick properly to the surface of the tender frame a hole was drilled out of all 6, then attached in place.  Once all set in place a thinner piece of plastic was glued over, hiding the hole/end of the axle, then the black rectangular piece.

  Image 2 is the frame assembly being attached to the floor

  Image 3 is the upper half of the tender. The drawings state that a coal plate was added by the LNER to these tenders (4235 gallon type) so I want to see if this was removed when Glen Douglas was restored in 1959 or if it was just left in place,  Should point out, the water filler cap on the tender isn't fixed in place yet - was just posed for the picture!

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  Last night saw the springs finished off on the tender (both sides).  Very simplified, but it should look ok when painted.  Just needing to fit buffers (once something suitable has been found) and brake piping on the buffer beam and it is essentially complete.  Will dig out the Caledonian single today and check the weight of the tender so I can add appropriate weight to this tender.

 

Also progressing with the splashers, using blu-tack to hold the parts in place during assembly has made this possible 

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Not a massive amount of progress, though tender is pretty much complete structurally.  Looking fitting Highland Railway Jones buffers, from the Highland Railway society, as these appear to be the closest I can find to the NB type. Also compared some which I have for my HR Jones 8T van against the buffers on the Oxford Rail NBR Jubilee wagon, and pretty much identical (just no distinctive bolts), though the Jubilee wagon is much earlier than the Glen class.

 

  Paid a visit to Glen Douglas today in what I will describe as one of the worst laid out museums there has to be.  Managed to get a good number of pictures of many details and realised that the lining is going to be a challenge! :huh:  There's something about a simpler way of doing lining IIRC in one of the sections (maybe under painting etc).   Do have suitable transfers from Guilplates for the numbers and initials which is very handy.

 

  Luckily, Humbrol #155 appears to be a close match for the NBR green which Glen Douglas is in (the flash of the camera doesn't really help here)

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Hi, not meant as criticism just a thought you might find easier before getting further with the painting.  If you look at your photo of the tender rear you will see that the flute on the top of the tender is rounded at the corners.  (as are the coal rails above. )  When I first scratch built one of these in brass (nearly 60 years ago now)  I made the corners square as you have, added the top beading to the curve and filled in the back with solder. I then filed the curve on the brass/solder" points "   . If you build up the back with bits of styrene  (where I put solder) until solid you could file  curved corners .

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

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On 18/07/2019 at 22:45, Caley 439 said:

Looking fitting Highland Railway Jones buffers, from the Highland Railway society, as these appear to be the closest I can find to the NB type.

 

 

 For my J37s, on advice from an NBR expert I used Alan Gibson Drummond Standard LSWR sprung bufferes, ref 4910.  See pic here -

HTH.

 

Alasdair

 

Edited by AJCT
Correct spelling...
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To reply to AJCT, funnily I've also enquired about the castings for the buffers used by the 'other' Drummond, looking at pictures of some of the Bens. 

 

  Thanks for pointing that out Ian, I had got a bit ahead of myself - that's the advantage of posting topics on here. The loco and tender are packed away just now but when I get back to them I'll go over and add the beading at the top. I should have thought of that, especially as I'd filed the corners of the tank 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Ordered a motor (same type as used for the B12, but in the configuration for the 0-6-0s) and some other parts this week and they arrived yesterday.   Have hacked about at the motor mount, and this should be possible to use too.  Similarly  castings from Lanarkshire Model Supplies also arrived - they supply North British buffers, which I had chosen for use on Glen Douglas (with a spare set maybe for Gordon Highlander).  Next step, how to fix the pick-ups on.  Once the chassis is running I can think about the boiler assembly and start making a bit more progress.  Pictures to follow later 

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As promised. 

 

Still working on the motor mount, need to see if I've got a spare 8BA bolt as it should be possible to secure it using the hole for securing the original motor mounting 

 

Fantastic cast buffers from Lanarkshire model Supplies currently just posed for now, will progress with the running plate (and the running of the chassis for that matter!) before they are fixed in place.  Also ordered coupling hooks and brake piping from them, these are also wonderful quality castings

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  • 2 weeks later...

A small bit of progress today, my big issue has been the motor mount and so I decided to draw one out in CAD and 3D print it - did it while cutting some 16mm scale kits on the laser cutter, and then printed. 1st Version was good, but wouldn't do for fitting in the wires of the motor (which have been disconnected for now), 2nd version improved but a 3rd version was done and this is great; will be getting used for the next 4-4-0 too.  The cab will still have some of it's space lost but not so much.  Will try and get the wires soldered back on tomorrow and hopefully sort out a suitable arrangement for the pickups, when this is done and there's a running chassis then I can recommence with the bodywork.  The boiler will probably be laser cut in 6mm plywood, as I have lots of off cuts of it lying around that I can't really use for much else, in a layered construction smoothed out with wood filler.  Also drew out a chimney and 3D printed it....didn't come out too well so back to the drawing board with it 

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Edited by Caley 439
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A little bit of fettling and then re-soldering on the wires and I'm happy with the  outcome for the upper part of the loco - just pick ups to sort and fit.  So tonight both sides of the cab were joined together........starting to look a little more like a NB loco.  Will start on the boiler next week, and play around with the design so it fits over the motor and wiring.   Cab interior will have a few compromises, but overall should get a good degree of detail in it too.   Chimney printed the other day also positioned for the picture

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Boiler parts for Glen Douglas cut and assembly begun (after redrawing the parts to bring the boiler slightly lower!).  It has made me realise though that I may have an issue using the other chassis for Gordon Highlander as the boiler may not be able to contain the motor - a wide cab T9 might be better for building a D40.  2nd option for the B12 chassis might be a Caley 72 or 113 class instead, or even a Caley 4-6-0?.

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2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

You do realise that this is the 'raindance' that will surely precipitate a Glen in RTR OO? 

 

Should that not be a "traindance"?

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