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Rail staff - having a bad day? Stop and think.


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OK. This is a bit of a moan, so feel free to ignore, but I am curious to find out what others think.

Before any current or former rail staff make any assumptions, consider this. Anyone that knows me will know that I spent a sizeable portion of my adult life working as a driver for BR, then Network SouthEast and finally Connex, so I do understand that it's perfectly possible, nay highly likely, to get out of bed and have the mother of bad days.

The incident:

Last week, my daughter (then 15, since turned 16) had to take a half day off school in Sheringham to attend an Orthodontist appointment in nearby Cromer. She's recently had a brace removed and now uses a retainer. Something wasn't right, and she was in considerable pain, so a last-minute appointment was sought. Circumstances dictated that I couldn't drive her, so unfortunately she had to go on her own. "I'm nearly 16, Dad, don't fuss. I'll be fine".

Arriving at Sheringham station, she purchased a child off peak return from the ticket machine which was actually working for a change.

Sheringham - Cromer, not an issue, but on the return journey the Conductor checked her ticket, and handed her a form insisting she filled in her name and address. No explanation. He then walked off. Unsure why she was being asked to do this, my daughter did nothing. He returned a couple of minutes later and my daughter asked what the problem was. He gruffly explained that as it was a school day and the train she was using was within school hours, he didn't believe she was under 16 and he believed her to be travelling as an adult with a child's ticket.

Unfortunately, my daughter had nothing with her to prove her age. She did, however, explain the reason for her journey.

Said conductor was having none of it and insisted rudely that she just "fill out the damn form". Nice.

Being in some pain, and knowing that she was guilty of nothing, my daughter came over all stubborn and refused.

Conductor snatched the pad out of her hand and then walked off ready to open the doors at Sheringham, swearing under his breath. Again, nice.

The final insult was the conductor's tannoy announcement on arrival at Sheringham along the lines of "I'd like to thank all but one of you for travelling with us today".

Was there really any need for that?

At the moment, part of me thinks to brush it off. Yeah - maybe he was having a bad day.

The greater part of me wants to make a complaint, knowing the date and time of the train, so the conductor can be traced and maybe someone can have a word in his shell-like.

What do you think? Leave it alone or complain just to let Greater Anglia know how upset my daughter was and how bl00dy annoyed I was when she told me what had happened?

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There are different things to consider here:

 

Conductors are also revenue protection officers. It should be quite reasonable to question a person's age in the same way that it has become normal for younger adults to prove age in order to buy alcohol.

For most adults, driving licences also act as id. I assume that there is something suitable for an under-16? Ideally this should be carried. Without this, we rely on trust for a child to buy a child ticket & the world seems to be running short of trust.

 

On the other hand:

The guard sounded unjustly confrontational. Surly a polite enquiry as to why your daughter was not at school would have prompted a suitable reply. Braces/retainer are both quite visible.

Is a 15 year old as confident as someone who is 30+? I don't think so. Some adults take advantage of this even if they don't realise they are doing so. When confronted, an older person may have some suitable retorts & more probably the confidence to use them, particularly "Haven't you heard of GDPR?".

This also brings to another point that the recent increased awareness of GDPR makes it unreasonable to ask for a child to submit their home address to someone who is effectively a stranger.

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Not all schools were at school last week - Scottish ones have already broken up (at least the one my nephews go to has), so there's no justification of automatically assuming someone should be in school. Private schools probably too. So it's not impossible.

 

Some talk of ID - well, I'm just glad I grew up before you were expected to go through life having to prove who you were all the time at that age.

 

We all have bad days but shoving something in someone's face and demanding they provide personal details should never be acceptable without a damned good reason, and even where there is such a reason it has to be given.

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10 minutes ago, russ p said:

That's terrible Pete,  you don't know who it was do you?

 

I've no idea Russ. My daughter described him, but I don't use the train that often so wouldn't know him. I did ask if he was wearing a name badge, but my daughter doesn't remember.

I'm not overly worried about it all. A wise man once said "sh!t happens", I'm just a bit miffed by his attitude. As Pete the Elaner says (above), a polite enquiry as to why my daughter was not in school would have been preferable to the sarcasm.

 

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Probably difficult to provide suitable ID as that tends to work the other way, student cards are usually issued at 16+ and can be used to prove you are older than a certain age.  Can't think of anything our kids would have had at the time to prove they were under 16. 

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3 minutes ago, Pete 75C said:

 

I've no idea Russ. My daughter described him, but I don't use the train that often so wouldn't know him. I did ask if he was wearing a name badge, but my daughter doesn't remember.

I'm not overly worried about it all. A wise man once said "sh!t happens", I'm just a bit miffed by his attitude. As Pete the Elaner says (above), a polite enquiry as to why my daughter was not in school would have been preferable to the sarcasm.

 

 

Nevertheless he shouldn't treat people like that, and if nothing is done who knows how many others may receive the same treatment?  Most on train staff don't act in that manner, thankfully; the few who do get their colleagues and the railways generally a bad name.  Speaking as an ex Guard (not so long ago) myself .... 

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Photo of her passport on her phone as proof of age.

 

Guy sounds like a dick, no reason for that sort of treatment, whatever he believed. I'd probably complain for the 30 seconds it'd take, and by return you'll get a "thanks your complaint, we'll deal with this internally" meaning nothing will ever happen.

 

38 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

This also brings to another point that the recent increased awareness of GDPR makes it unreasonable to ask for a child to submit their home address to someone who is effectively a stranger.

Surely you're kidding? Are kids now saying to strangers on the street "no, sorry, I can't get into your car, GDPR and all that"?

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20 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Much ado about nothing from both sides.

 

IMHO I would just move on. Life is too short.

 

Disagree - this is a member of staff and they should treat people with basic respect. Allow them to continue and who knows where there behaviour will escalate.

 

Report them Pete - I've found GA to be very helpful in dealing with complaints about staff in the past.

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Hmm. Sounds like a bad day thing to me. Sadly, in a customer facing job you are expected to be sweetness and light at all times, and if something has happened to make you grumpy, your boss will have zero consideration. Sometimes we all just need a break to calm down, but the modern workplace doesn't accommodate this.

 

Basically, I know I've been there and been sharp/sarky with punters when they didn't really deserve it, so try to cut a bit of slack.

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You don't need the name of the person employed by the TOC as if you can say what time train they will have a log of driver and other staff details.

 

A scan/photo of passport or a school age bus pass (assuming she uses bus to get to school)  would suffice.

 

Asking a minor for various personal details could be classed by some as grooming by some folks.  Just a simple question of name please and what school do you go to would be better as the TOC or guard could ring the school to confirm - no address or contact details of minor.

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Establishing the age of some youngsters, particularly the females,  can be difficult without intrusive questioning so I can understand his grounds for suspicion - many of us have been there.   But having said that the way in which he went about things was appalling and he deserves a Size 12 boot aimed very firmly at his rear end (probably illegal nowadays) for that alone and his logic was also somewhat warped to say the least.   I'd definitely get in touch with his employers but in a far from aggressive manner expressing more than anything else considerable concern over the way he went about his job but not over his inclination to be suspicious. 

 

What his boss then needs to do is to use the steel fist in a velvet glove approach and read the chap his fortune.  And don't forget it might not just have been a bad day but he might well have a history of this sort of behaviour and that is another reason for reporting the incident - if his boss actually knows his staff properly he'll quickly know which it was.

Edited by The Stationmaster
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I guess he had legitimate grounds for asking the question, but that was clearly not the way to go about it. Though I do have some sympathy when I think about some of the belligerent idiots that guards/ revenue protection people have to deal with. If he's dealt with some of that earlier then it's only a human reaction to go into confrontation mode prematurely.

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What does your daughter think or want to do - has she  shrugged it off now? - she sounds like she was the better behaved half of the argument. My inclination otherwise is to move on although I share your frustration.

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26 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Basically, I know I've been there and been sharp/sarky with punters when they didn't really deserve it, so try to cut a bit of slack.

 

Except that it wasn't a passing aberration. The public announcement he made later showed he was, effectively, bearing a grudge. 

 

The Nim.

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15 minutes ago, Nimbus said:

 

Except that it wasn't a passing aberration. The public announcement he made later showed he was, effectively, bearing a grudge. 

 

The Nim.

 

Totally agree. You could say that my daughter was having a bad day as well - she was in some discomfort but knowing she'd done nothing wrong, dug her heels in and refused to fill out the form. Maybe the conductor saw that as confrontational? What really upset her though was the tannoy announcement. Other passengers nearby must have been aware of the problem between the conductor and my daughter but may not have been close enough to have heard any details. My daughter tells me that after the tannoy announcement, other passengers in the same carriage were staring at her as she left the train like she was some kind of criminal. I feel the tannoy announcement was a very cheap shot and I'd worry that he makes a habit of it.

So, for that reason, I'll go for the official complaint. I'm sure his manager will have a word.

 

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1 hour ago, njee20 said:

Photo of her passport on her phone as proof of age.

 

She's just turned 16 now, but that's a very good idea and I wish I'd thought of it. As others have pointed out, it's not a requirement in relation to a child ticket, but it could have prevented the problem in the first place.

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8 minutes ago, Pete 75C said:

So, for that reason, I'll go for the official complaint. I'm sure his manager will have a word.

 

 

Along with your complaint perhaps you could suggest that in the future if a conductor doubts the age of a minor that a phone call is made to a responsible adult, e.g. a parent of the minor, to seek assurance of age and the need to travel in school time?

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6 minutes ago, Pete 75C said:

 

She's just turned 16 now, but that's a very good idea and I wish I'd thought of it. As others have pointed out, it's not a requirement in relation to a child ticket, but it could have prevented the problem in the first place.

Useful at any age I find - I've often found having a photo of it is useful - booking travel, verifying ID etc!

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Personally I'd get it off your chest as it could gnaw away for quite a time.

 

I speak from personal experience having seen an incident on a train at Derby where a member of staff demanded that a very tired male move to make way for a family with a pushchair. He explained he had been travelling for 24 hours (it was a train that had called at Birmingham international and I was on it having travelled in on a plane from Europe). Anyway having refused to move she called police in and they removed him from the train. This is 15 or more years ago and I still regret not reporting what to me disgraceful use of force. The train wasn't overly full full. I decided at the time not to join in - possibly wisely - but I did come close to saying she should understand how it feels to fly halfway across the world with umpteen time changes. Not all staff are reasonable and it still worries away at me - but I have that type of personality.

 

Paul

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