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Rail staff - having a bad day? Stop and think.


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2 minutes ago, duncan said:

Paul, I doubt anything would have come of a complaint, then or now, as discrimination against single people is the only form of discrimination still legal, back off my single horse !

 

:offtopic: Agree. I had a couple of single colleagues - a male and a female - whom could both be angry about the way that "family friendly policy" meant they were put upon, being expected to 'deliver' work when other colleagues were being permitted leniency because they had children etc. And this was within an organisation that was generous about part-time work (and this didn't prevent promotion) and an excellent on site creche - both of which made our contract prices more expensive.

 

Paul

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Both seem to have been having a bad day but your daughter was correct in standing up for herself but also an under 16 travelling in school time is likely to cause questions. Unfortunately the suspicion is caused by so many cheating the system that the staff are suspicious and it could have ended in them detaining her to be met by BTP. The staff care about the fact that fare dodgers, even perceived ones, are causing the genuine travellers to pay more so they should challenge it. 

Maybe the answer is to carry a copy of the appointment or as said before refer them to you by putting in the form ‘please contact my father 07.........’. 

The announcement took it too far though as it does cause embarrassment in public when there was no evidence to support his suspicion. I think a complaint setting out the facts and asking what the procedure should be and why it isn’t mentioned when buying a child ticket on its own? It doesn’t matter if she bought it online or at a ticket machine / office there is a chance to say you may need proof of age when travelling in school times at the point of sale. 

 

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https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/contact-us/contact-forms/customer-relations

 

I missed the announcement bit - 100% complain, there is no need for such an attitude and nothing excuses it, he had to think about doing that, it wasn't an accidental gruff answer for example. Saying that there is little excuse for someone who is paid to deal with the public to not be patient and well behaved until the member of public demonstrates the need to be otherwise - full stop. De-escalation of problem situations does not have a Rule 1 - abuse the person in several ways as this will calm things down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/contact-us/contact-forms/customer-relations

 

I missed the announcement bit - 100% complain, there is no need for such an attitude and nothing excuses it, he had to think about doing that, it wasn't an accidental gruff answer for example. Saying that there is little excuse for someone who is paid to deal with the public to not be patient and well behaved until the member of public demonstrates the need to be otherwise - full stop. De-escalation of problem situations does not have a Rule 1 - abuse the person in several ways as this will calm things down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And let us hope for Pete and his daughter's sake that 'Customer Relations' at Anglia are a darned sight better at their jobs than some of the 'fob it off with reply No. 6 B' types who appear to work for GWR.  

 

I found it appalling that a concern with a boss man who is absolutely excellent at passenger relations and telling things like they are should employ such useless specimens as lurk in GWR's complaints department - who can't even be bothered to link two successive emails togethr including one they had sent out asking for information.  (And yes, many years ago I used to deal with public complaints about train running etc so I know exactly what the job entails.)

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19 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Unfortunately the suspicion is caused by so many cheating the system that the staff are suspicious and it could have ended in them detaining her to be met by BTP. The staff care about the fact that fare dodgers, even perceived ones, are causing the genuine travellers to pay more so they should challenge it. 

 

 

Physicially detaining a legally travelling, female minor, think what charges the guard could have faced!!!

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Pity the employee didn't politely say why.

 

Pity she didn't just comply with the employee's instruction then there would have been less upset all round.  

Edited by Colin_McLeod
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1 minute ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Pitu the employee didny politely say why.

 

Pity she didn't just comply with the employee's instruction than there woukd have been less upset all round.  

There'll always be less friction if you give way to every unreasonable request but that's not a good reason to do so. Personally speaking I'll be damned if I ever give out any personal details without a good reason (i.e. it's necessary for whatever the task is, e.g. having something delivered). And that's without me being a school-age girl travelling on her own and all the concerns that should raise.

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1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

So it's wrong to make a complaint. (the only avenue actually available to the OP) that if followed up correctly will allow what happened to be properly investigated and follopwed up as necessary with the member of staff involved in the incident?

 

Not wrong to make a complaint, just as it was not wrong to check what might have been fare evasion.

 

 

Just as the PA announcement was unnecessary,  so also is posting one side of the story on the internet.  In the absence of a statement from the railway employee we have only his daughter's word for what happened.

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Firstly, well done to your daughter for standing her ground in what must have been a very unpleasant situation.

 

Secondly, complain.  This feeble bully needs to be challenged.

 

Thirdly, those of you siding with the conductor - have a word with yourselves.  The girl wasn't trying to evade paying, she had a valid ticket, he was jumping to conclusions about her age.  GA wasn't being deprived of revenue.  Getting aggressive to a lone female is bang out of order, bullying and has no place in any public facing activity.  Period.  To then sarcastically use the PA to further rub salt into the wound just shows what a pathetic individual the conductor is.  He should be re-assigned at the very least to a non-customer facing role unless he changes his attitude.

 

For some reason I don't often get rude service, but when I do I complain and make sure it's acted on.  Equally, when I get good service, or someone goes out of their way to assist me, I always follow it up with praise and make sure the company concerned know about their good staff.  Fortunately most people in public facing roles who have to put up with a lot of self entitled idiots and worse still manage to maintain their composure and deal with situations in which I would probably have lost it (I have had to deal with public facing situations in my past career but in relatively controlled environments).  I know it's not a role I would be able to do so managed my career accordingly.  Perhaps this individual should re-asses his chosen career into something that does not involve dealing with the public.  After all, if you can't swim, there's no point applying to be a lifeguard.

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A few things which need to be said -

 

1. If the story told by Pete is correct (not that I have any reason to doubt it) the person examining his daughter's ticket did not comply with the National Conditions of Carriage in that he failed to explain why he wanted her to complete the form but simply handed that form to her to complete.

2. Pete's daughter was technically in breach of the National Conditions of Carriage when she failed to complete the form however in mitigation the attitude of the person who examined her ticket was hardly helpful and she had been given no chance to confirm the validity of her ticket at the time the form was given to her.

3. Greater Anglia's online policy information in respect of suspected fare evasion is out of date so its contents might be suspect beyond that extremely basic error (it refers to the wrong Conditions of Carriage document).

4.  The ticket examiner's behaviour and announcement when Pete's daughter was about to alight is utterly inexcusable in any circumstances and if confirmed should be the subject of disciplinary action.  However frustrated he might have felt (which I can understand if incorrect use of Child Fares is a problem on that route) he was well out of order behaving in such a childish manner. 

5.  If Pete's daughter had completed the form I could see it leading to her case failing to be correctly considered and Anglia (or their agents - and the latter tend in my experience to be a bunch of sharks) starting proceedings against her which could get serious and cause considerable upset unless resolved quickly.  Outside agents in these circumstances - again in my experience - tend to shoot first and not bother answering, let alone asking, questions until much later.

 

Comments on here about Facebook and 'lynch mobs', as well as apparently hurling an insult at another RMweb (which is against the rules of the forum so I am reporting it) strike me as juvenile particularly when what could be a serious and upsetting incident has occurred and when a member of railway staff has seemingly failed to do his job correctly.  It is absolutely right that the matter should be reported to the TOC concerned in the hope that it will be properly investigated and dealt with - one way or another.  But whatever took place in the early and middle stages the announcement was absolutely disgraceful and should be dealt with in discipline - whatever else the member of staff did or did not do.

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32 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Not wrong to make a complaint, just as it was not wrong to check what might have been fare evasion.

 

 

Just as the PA announcement was unnecessary,  so also is posting one side of the story on the internet.  In the absence of a statement from the railway employee we have only his daughter's word for what happened.

Quite right to check in respect of juvenile fare evasion and as I said previously it has long been a difficult area and is certainly one where some passenger's 'take liberties.

 

But we start from a situation where we do - as you say - only know one side of the incident and probably that is all we will ever know.  Clearly the ticket examiner has to be given his chance and that is what reporting the incident ought to do (assuming it is channelled to the correct manager and then fully investigated - which I hope is what would happen).

 

Like me you probably have had over the years to deal with complaints about 'customer facing' members of staff and you will I'm sure have become as well used as I did to the form these take and the degree of bombast, credibility, or whatever which came with them.  Similarly when you know your staff and you received a complaint about their behaviour I bet there were examples of  'oh, not him again!!!, or 'he wouldn't do a thing like that'  (or even in the case of one of mine a quick check to see which phase the moon was in) before you had even finished reading the complaint.  But all of that is an area where on here we can't judge because we don't know that side of things although what we do know (assuming we have correct information) is that a stupid announcement was made and that tends to tell me something about the person making it.

 

But at the end of everything we might do or say it is this man's manager who needs to know what happened and investigate the other side of the story and then take appropriate action but I remain firm in my view that it should include taking the matter to discipline in respect of the announcement because it was appalling behaviour.

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1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

Both seem to have been having a bad day but your daughter was correct in standing up for herself but also an under 16 travelling in school time is likely to cause questions. Unfortunately the suspicion is caused by so many cheating the system that the staff are suspicious and it could have ended in them detaining her to be met by BTP. The staff care about the fact that fare dodgers, even perceived ones, are causing the genuine travellers to pay more so they should challenge it. 

Maybe the answer is to carry a copy of the appointment or as said before refer them to you by putting in the form ‘please contact my father 07.........’.  

At risk of going off tangentially what is the legality of that? Are you guilty until proven innocent, could she be detained and met by the BTP as someone unable to disprove fare evasion? Then what? Thrown in the cells until someone brought her passport to the police station? An appointment card is proof of absolutely nothing, other than the fact she had an orthodontic appointment, which is totally unrelated to her age.

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On the assumption that the account is correct (and there is no reason to doubt it) it does appear that the conductor really didn't do any of his job well. Having formed a suspicion that the daughter may not be entitled to a child fare and dealing with the issue in an incompetent and offensive manner, he then took no further steps to investigate the issue, contenting himself with further offensiveness over the pa. Possibly he realised he was not on a very good wicket....

 

I would certainly complain and be interested in the response. I can't, in passing, see that there is any reason why you should not raise the issue on this forum, as others have suggested. You haven't identified the conductor (although doubtless those with the necessary facilities could locate him)  so he is hardly disadvantaged.

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3 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

If this was my daughter , I’d do my best to get the person disemployed.

 

One thing I can’t stand is when we give people like this a little power and they abuse it. Bullying ###hole.

 

Exactly.

 

If I'm the person referred to my Simon Lee above then yes, I nearly always complain when staff act either abusively or make up rules as they go along (so that's once in the last 6 years).  So fill your boots with generalisations, most if not all decent staff want to get rid of the idiots as much as the rest of us do.

 

 

 

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I remember when I was just under 16 often taking a passport or some sort of ID just to avoid hassle like this (I was tall for my age so it happened a couple of times, although not to anything like this extent), so I can sort of understand that bit, although of course unlike railcard fares that require the railcard to be shown as well it doesn’t stipulate on the ticket that you should carry ID. But the whole thing with the form and the comment about it being in school hours just seems ridiculously heavy-handed. The announcement afterwards though is the last straw - absolutely no need for that and based on that you should definitely complain.

Edited by 009 micro modeller
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2 hours ago, duncan said:

Paul, I doubt anything would have come of a complaint, then or now, as discrimination against single people is the only form of discrimination still legal, back off my single horse !

Not quite, Duncan; fat people are also legally discriminated against, with the active encouragement of everybody who thinks that they are better than them because they weigh less...

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1 hour ago, TheQ said:

Physicially detaining a legally travelling, female minor, think what charges the guard could have faced!!!

I never mentioned physically detaining her! It’s an established practice to not open the doors at unmanned stations or inform the gate line staff at manned stations. You certainly never touch them unless they attack you and then only defend or you end up equally liable. I’ve seen many fare dodgers dealt with, including minors and it doesn’t need to escalate to comments on the tannoy. The initial questioning was valid, her response in not filling out the form could have been handled purely by saying we have to establish age and it’s for the benefit of fare paying passengers so you have nothing to worry about. It could have been handled better by the member of staff who made an assumption and a youngster who was travelling legally felt intimidated and defended her privacy as she had no way of proving age or stipulation that she must do so before travelling. 

The announcement is where I feel the line was crossed that’s all. 

Edited by PaulRhB
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As a guard and having been in this situation many times when someone "refuses" to give their details I have some sympathy for both sides. We are legally entitled to get the details and they are breaking the law to refuse to give them. I carry a card which gives the relevant details.

 

Also we have only one side here and I know from the experience of several of my colleagues that people can be economical with the facts when it suits.

 

Personally i agree with the earlier poster who advised that she should have just given the details and let it take its course. If someone refuses to give them then I asume the worst.

 

No announcement though that sounds to me she wasn't as perfect as she is saying.

Edited by Hobby
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45 minutes ago, njee20 said:

At risk of going off tangentially what is the legality of that? Are you guilty until proven innocent, could she be detained and met by the BTP as someone unable to disprove fare evasion? Then what? Thrown in the cells until someone brought her passport to the police station? An appointment card is proof of absolutely nothing, other than the fact she had an orthodontic appointment, which is totally unrelated to her age.

As Blair notes they are legally entitled to get their details, did the member of staff explain it? I doubt you could prove that part either way now. It doesn’t matter what age they are they can be denied exit but not physically restrained or you get into gbh, this is why many dodgers vault the gate line as they know they can’t be stopped. 

Everyone seems to jump to the conclusion that detained means grab them and it does not, there are legal ways to do it and that’s why cctv is a friend to the staff and innocent. I was on a train where a fare evader started shouting the guard had assaulted him, I could clearly see the guard at all times and he never touched him. I supported the guard by pointing out the cameras to the miscreant and gave my details for a witness statement. The person was met by BTP at the next station. 

 

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Genuine curiosity on my part, no presumption that detains means physically, but what if you can't prove your age? There's no legal compulsion, at any age, to have ID that proves how old you are, is there? 

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The btp woukd simply establish their details and it would be taken from there. You don't get thrown into cells if you cooperate and don't get physical with them. I've had people detained several time to establish id but never had someone thrown in the cells for it. I don't understand why people think it would happen. The btp like us just want a quiet life. If you are polite and cooperate with them and is then everyone can go on their way.

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Exaggeration for dramatic effect, like I say, was genuinely curious what the correct protocol was, beyond asking for details, as there was a suggestion that she could have been detained by BTP, making me think there was a process. I assume if you were sufficiently obstinate then you could theoretically end up with a more physical detention!

 

An OBS attempted to sell me a ticket this morning which would have been invalid on two counts (with no malicious intent, quite the opposite, but I was sufficiently savvy to spot what could happen), I presume the onus would be on me to prove that was what would have led to my having an invalid ticket, but I wondered idly how far that could go.

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They only get the details and then the Police can use the national database and you’d never hear anything more about it if it’s legal. But equally if you weren’t the age you said you were then you would receive a fine and if not paid taken to court. 

When we deal with trespassers lineside we hand it over to BTP and that’s it we aren’t involved again, if the person is apologetic they usually just get a verbal clarification, it only escalates with serial offenders or those who get difficult. 

We have one side of the story here and it’s understandable that she defended her privacy if it wasn’t properly explained but equally being in pain may have led her to be snappy and it went downhill from there. 

Common sense usually prevails but there are ‘I know my rights’ punters and officious staff. 

Like others have said a polite complaint is appropriate and they can look at the tapes as the announcement isn’t really appropriate unless you have proof. No one should lose their job but a bit of retraining may well be appropriate to stop it escalating in future. 

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