SDJR Southern End in the 1920s & 30s

[Nearholmer]

Folks,

 

Can I tap the collective knowledge banks, please?

 

The main theme of my Coarse 0 collection/layout is SR 1930/40s, but I've fallen prey to the delights of a new locomotive on the market, in the form of a 4F in SDJR blue. Also, on the list of things to do is a very simple conversion of a Bassett-Lowke Compound to a representation of one of the SDJR 2P, also to be in blue livery.

 

The feeble excuse is that these things came to Bournemouth, which is, of course on the SR. The real reason is that they are quite pretty!

 

But, did they actually come to Bournemouth? And, would the 2P have been hauling coaches in LMS livery on through trains, or what? I know what goods brake to create to match the 4F, but nothing else.

 

Is there a source for 1920/30s photos of the southern end of the SDJR?

 

Thanks in advance, Kevin

[bike2steam]

4F in blue? And there was me thinking only passenger locos wore the S&DJR blue livery. But there again 4F's did occasionally get roped into passenger work to Bomo West. But in the 1930's 2P's worked to Swanage (via Hamworthy Junction) as well as BW. 

[eastglosmog]

Kevin As far as I know, SDR trains ran into Bournemouth West from 1874.  The SDJR had an engine shed at Brankscombe from 1896 at the junction of the Dorchester Wimbourne line with the line to Bournemouth West (later became an LMS shed when the LMS took over the SDJR locos).  There was a through Manchester Bournemouth express from 1910, so yes, SDJR blue locos and LMS carriages would have been seen at Bournemouth in the 1920s.  After that, the blue livery disappeared on takeover of the SDJR loco stock by the LMS (LMS coaches would of course carry on being seen until after 1948) so it would be unlikely the blue livery would be seen much after the early 1930s.  Freight locos were painted black from about 1924, so a blue 4F in your period would be a bit unlikely!  You will just have to move your period back a bit to the 1920s!

Edited July 16, 2019 by eastglosmog
Typo

[MarcD]

I was told that all goods locos were repainted black from 1910 with the exception of the jinties that came out bagnal's in unlined blue.

Marc

[Nearholmer]

Bike2Steam,

 

I'm pretty certain that the 4F (actually Midland 3835 Class) which were introduced by the SDJR, and the 2P, and a couple of Jinties come to that, were blue until c1930, when they were absorbed into LMS stock, but my ignorance knows few bounds.

 

Kevin

 

PS: if the 4F weren’t blue, they jolly well should have been!

Edited July 16, 2019 by Nearholmer

[eastglosmog]

According to Robin Athill " The Somerset and Dorset Railway" goods locos were painted black from 1924. The SDR was still a legal entity until 1923 when it was officially absorbed into the LMS and Southern having previously been leased by the Midland and LSWR.  The 5 4F's that were delivered new to the SDJR in 1922 were probably painted blue, and might have lasted in blue until nearly 1930 as I doubt anyone was going to waste money painting them black before it was necessary.

[Nearholmer]

Hooray!

 

”Probably” is good enough for me.

 

However, I have now discovered that they had strange tenders, and were driven “from the other side of the cab” compared to the rest, so the model on offer is more an evocation than a precise replica in miniature.

[Compound2632]

"Since 1921 black had been the livery of goods engines, these [the Armstrongs] being the first 0-6-0s to enter traffic so painted." [D. Bradley and D. Milton, Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973) p. 151.] Sorry.

 

The S&DJR had some rather attractive 46 ft bogie carriages, built at their Highbridge works, which seem to have combined features of design from both the parent lines - the panelling was pure Midland. These would certainly have worked through to Bornemouth West either on local trains or as the local portion of through workings from the Midland. By the 20s, the Midland through stock would be mostly Bain's 54 ft round-panelled corridor clerestories, with a dining car pair on the principal train.

[Compound2632]

20 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

However, I have now discovered that they had strange tenders, and were driven “from the other side of the cab” compared to the rest, so the model on offer is more an evocation than a precise replica in miniature.

 

There was nothing strange about those tenders - the standard Midland 3,500 gal design - or right-hand drive; absolutely standard for a Midland engine. The LMS Standard 4Fs had the later Deeley / Fowler style tender but quite a few were built before the move to left-hand drive. 

[Nearholmer]

Oh dear!

 

An engine in the wrong livery, with the wrong tender (it comes with a Fowler one)......... i’m beginning to rethink this purchasing plan/whim.

 

Odd, really, because i’m perfectly happy with nakedly freelance/generic locos on my railway, and ones with no brake-gear, and coarse wheels etc, but I get quite bothered by ones that are clearly accurate models in most respects, but are then painted the wrong colour.

 

 

[PenrithBeacon]

I bought a booklet from the S&DJR Trust at Washford which I can't find right this very minute, but it said IIRC that the S&DJR 4Fs came from two manufacturers, one of which painted the locos Prussian blue the other black.  Further more that they were delivered alternately so one blue, the next black and so on.

 

Nowadays my memory is by no means as good as it once was ...  

[Compound2632]

Where on earth did they get that from? The five Class 4 goods engines, S&DJR Nos. 57-61, ultimately BR Nos. 44557-44561, were a single batch built by Armstrong, Whitworth & Co (hence the nickname), their Works Nos. 468-472, all entering service in April 1922. There were a number of Midland Class 4 goods engines loaned to the S&DJR, these would have been black, but anyway as already stated the Armstrongs were black.

 

I can find no instance of S&DJR locomotives of the same class being built concurrently by two manufacturers. The closest approach among the goods engines are the Johnson Standard Goods engines; the first batch of five, S&DJR Nos. 62-66, were built at Derby and entered service in January-March 1896, painted blue. (Nine Elms nearly built them, both companies in the Joint Agreement being invited to tender - Johnson's old friend Dugald Drummond put in a bid just £20 per engine higher than Derby). The second batch of five, S&DJR Nos. 72-76, were diverted from an order for sixty the Midland had placed with Neilson, Reid & Co; they were delivered in September 1902, painted in the standard Midland red livery apart from S&DJR lettering. These ten engines were rebuilt with G7 boilers in the early 20s, becoming identical to the Midland engines so treated, as class 3F.

 

[Ref. Bradley & Milton, Op. cit.]

[Nearholmer]

Lined black?

 

Bachman seem to think so, because that seems to be how they finished their 00 models. Or are their models very dark Prussian blue? I find it hard to tell from photos.

 

Whatever it is, It actually looks rather nice, certainly a considerable "lift" above plain black.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

The Bachmann S&DJR livery is a splendid representation of what the Armstrongs would have looked like had they been painted blue. In some photos they look almost black but they are in fact blue.

 

The S&DJR black livery was the same as the Midland black livery: black. Red lining was an LMS innovation for some second-rank passenger engines when the (official) painting of all passenger engines red ceased in 1928 - i.e. those engines that got LNWR livery in BR days, including the 2Ps. 

[NHY 581]

Sorry but the Armstrongs  were delivered new in plain black. No lining on any of the SDJR goods locos. 

 

The Prussian blue locos were fully lined though the Bagnalls ( Jinties) were plain unlined Prussian Blue. 

 

Plans were afoot for the SDJR to adopt standard LMS lined black livery but lettered and numbered SDJR......however this all ended in 1930. 

 

However there are photos of ex SDJR locos in Prussian Blue but carrying LMS numbering and lettered LMS post 1930. 

 

Add in the locos delivered to the S&D in Midland red but lettered and numbered SDJR.....

 

Rob 

[Nearholmer]

Going off at a tangent, one of the SDJR Jinties (yes, I know they weren't called that really) was sent to London for use in trials of the class on passenger work, I think because the SDJR ones had screw reversers, and I've often wondered whether it was still blue, but lettered LMS, at the time.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

The trial was a success: Devons Road got sixty screw-reverse 0-6-0T 3Fs for North London passenger services.