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Why Use Specific Point Motors?


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I have a simple layout with 4 or so points motored as they're at the back of the layout, so hard to reach.

While I model in DCC, the points are a simple DC switch - haven't quite got into route setting and I don't think this layout (or any I build) will really need that.

 

I've been watching a video about tortoise motors this morning.

I currently use seep motors with one of those power storer things (I forget the name!).

 

Is there a reason for using one above the other, apart from the snapping/clacking as the points change?

I guess tortoise motors don't need the power storer thing?

 

I don't mean to name brand names particularly, I refer to "tortoise" as the slow motion motor.

I have yet to investigate what cobalt motors are.

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I'd stopped using solenoid motors about 20 years ago. After playing with Cobalts and others I've settled on Tortoise. Currently I've got about 50 of them in operation. Some are from the original batch I bought in 99. 

 

Positives: 

1: built in polarity and indication switches. No need to muck about with separate switches for frogs. 

2: adjustable throw. You can play with the length of throw to get a good solid connection between rail and point. 

3: you can get rid of the spring in the point. One less thing to fail. Also they don't "bounce" the point rail like solenoids can do. 

4: easier on the point. No banging or crashing, just a gentle movement. One friend of mine has an exhibition layout that relies on a lot of shunting. One point has been replaced several times as the seep motor eventually causes the point blade to break off. (likely the motor is off centre but still it happens after about 100 throws regardless of how much adjustment) 

5: remote actuator option allows you to put a point in a tight spot and locate the motor up to 600mm away. 

6: no need for discharge unit or special wiring. You can change many points without having to wait. (again I use DCC and have route setting where up to 15 points can be switched at one time, no worries about skipped changes due to the discharge unit not charging quick enough) 

7: if using a DCC stationary decoder, it is simple to wire 2 together for a crossover without any issues. 

8: they also work great for signals. I have a pair that operate level crossing barriers. 

 

Negatives:

1: cost, they ain't cheap but they last forever. (almost) 

2: size, they need at least 90mm depth below the track. 

3: require a bit more effort to install if you have 50mm foam baseboard tops. (I use a rectangle of 4mm birch ply under the track as a mount)

 

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The 'power storer' is almost certainly a Capacitor Discharge Unit (CDU). It provides several benefits for operating solenoid motors by sending a short, sharp pulse of current.

I had some slow action motors on my last layout (all tortoises). They need wiring differently, requiring a lower, constant direct current which needs to be reversed in order to throw the point. Tortoises also have 2 included switches. I used 1 for switching the frogs & the other for sending back route indication to the control panel. Other slow action motors may also have switches.

I went back to solenoids for my latest layout because of cost: I have 36 points on it & have fitted microswitches for frog switching. I intend to use the frog polarity for route indication.

 

1 reason for using slow action motors is for the slow action of the point throw. A friend has convinced me that this is not prototypical for a point operated from a lever frame because the signaller would grab the lever & put all his effort into it, which would throw it quite quickly. It is ok for a more modern point operated which would be operated by a motor.

Because they do not throw with a thump, they are more gentle on the pointwork. This may be a consideration especially if you have hand-built finescale points.

The throwing speed & force can be adjusted mechanically or by changing the power supply for one of a different voltage.

Included switches may mean you do not have to buy & mount external ones. I found Peco's PL-13 & the internal Seep switch unreliable. Others may argue against this comment but this was my own experience, not hear say. I now use solenoid motors with microswitches.

A drawback with a tortoise for me was its size. Most of my motors were mounted on a high level section, which was fine. The one on the low level stuck out below the baseboard & as a result it was easily damaged. I thought my baseboard frames were quite deep too.

 

I would happily use slow action motors again but I would not mix them with solenoids if they are operated from a traditional DC control panel.

If you use DCC to throw your points, then depending on your accessory decoder, it may be possible to configure each output for whatever type of device is connected.

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1 minute ago, Pete the Elaner said:

The 'power storer' is almost certainly a Capacitor Discharge Unit (CDU). It provides several benefits for operating solenoid motors by sending a short, sharp pulse of current.

 

That's the one!

It's early :P 

 

I suppose I should have also added whether reliability is a factor.

I'm not sure how people keep the pins in on the seep point motors.  They're under the board and have a wire that sticks through the board and sole bar (?).  But gravity being what it is, I've had a few just fall out.  Hassle factor having to fit them back in is well over the 100 range!

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I have not had a pin fall out from a Seep, but it is something I shall now be aware of. Thank you.

I have heard (on here) that there is nothing wrong with Seep motors, but I have not been impressed with those I have, or at the club or on my friend's layout.

It has made me wonder if their quality control has been a bit suspect at times.

 

Maybe a blob of Araldite or superglue would be useful to hold the pin in place? This would be a bit tricky to apply once mounted so would be easier done before the motor is fitted.

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If you use hand built points then most people I know use a slow action point motor - a lot less potential for damage.

Solenoid such as the venerable Peco and Seep are designed to be used on ready to run points.

 

Personally I have moved on to using Radio Control servos, which I accept are not every ones cup of tea

The pluses are that servos are small, cheap, quiet and with most interfaces the amount of throw can be adjusted.

The draw back is they require are that the interfaces are relatively expensive and require more patience to set up.

 

Gordon A

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I settled on slow motion years ago, but being mean finally found a double ended type which is not only cheaper than most, but is easily arranged to operate two points arranged as a crossover, which is the large majority on running lines. At roughly a tenner at purchase, the Fulgurex gives me solenoid price per motorised point, but the desireable slow movement: at the cost of a little extra DIY compared to the simplicity of installing a motor like a Tortoise per point.

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2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I have not had a pin fall out from a Seep, but it is something I shall now be aware of. Thank you.

I have heard (on here) that there is nothing wrong with Seep motors, but I have not been impressed with those I have, or at the club or on my friend's layout.

It has made me wonder if their quality control has been a bit suspect at times.

 

Maybe a blob of Araldite or superglue would be useful to hold the pin in place? This would be a bit tricky to apply once mounted so would be easier done before the motor is fitted.

Regarding the pins dropping out. Yes I would imagine that a spot of glue would ensure that they don't fall out.

However the Peco ones with the extender shaft, using a brass sleeve is worse.

I haven't used the Peco ones for a long time now, but the extended ones now come with long pins in the first place. Peco's Technical department, must have got tired of posting out replacements!

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The Peco type motors are pretty cheap and nasty and will damage the points if too much power is applied. A big fat Capacitor will give a big fat dollop of amps. If the points are getting damaged maybe reduce the supply voltage, stick a few diodes in series in the feed, or bin the CDU and power them direct from a transformer DC output.   CDUs score when throwing multiple points together. I throw up to 6 at a time but never less than  4 using a diode matrix.  Where only 2 need to throw 2 extra point motor coils are also added to the circuit to absorb some of the power. This has stopped point blades being ripped out, as long as there are no wheels or flanges in the way.  I am talking many thousands of operations not 100s

 

 I have a large number of Hammant and Morgan solenoid point motors which operate points with a bell crank and an omega loop to take some of the shock out of the action in the hidden sidings and they work for years, 30 odd, with no attention what so ever. 

 

Slow action is OK for modern image but no one has really got a decent steam era mechanical signalling action, where the point rodding sort of twitches as the guy takes the strain and then bangs over.  Or the sequence where points move one at a time (except crossovers)  setting the road before the signals come off. 

 

I operate a signal with a DC motor, it has an arm on the armature spindle and the arm operates the signal wire.  It flops left or right with the arm vertical between.  The motor only ever turns 2/3 of a revolution. it's promising but sticksion is an issue.  Possibly a bigger motor turning 2/3ds of a rev might throw points in a more sympathetic manner than a solenoid.  I will raid my scrap box and give it a whirl. 

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4 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

... I'm not sure how people keep the pins in on the seep point motors ...

 

And I'm not sure how they can fall out, unless there's a manufacturing defect. If the nipping or squashing of the pin above the piston/bolt/core/call-it-what-you-will hasn't displaced enough metal to prevent it dropping down through the hole, then obviously it can fall out.  Otherwise, how can that happen?

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I use SEEP solenoids on most of my exhibition layouts. I dont have the depth under the boards for Tortoise and Cobalts had their own problems when they first came out but are now generally fine and I may well use them on the next layout.

 

I have generally stopped using the built in switch on the SEEP motors but they can be repaired with a tiny bit of solder although tricky and its easy to end up soldering the switch up solid. I mount the SEEPs on a timber base to allow a longer pin to the tie bar. However on some I have had the pin drop out after cutting it to length when I used ot put a piece of timber over the pin as a safety measure. I think this puts force on the pin where it is mounted into the armature. I now use a bit of foam and wear glasses. when cutting this.

 

I also now fit 9 pin D connectors  when wiring up the solenoids to allow easy removal if one fails at a show which save having ot go under the layout with a soldering iron. I have also tired the Peco solenoids since they started fitting a longer pin but I don't like the extra cost for the switch bases and have found them unreliable.

 

AS I use DCC, these days I use frog juicers and on a few the equivalent Gaugemaster ones to control the frog polarity. many don't like the idea of these but I have found them very reliable at the many shows we have taken the layouts to.

 

I generally keep a spare SEEP solenoid with me in case one requires swapping out and also at many shows a trader will have new ones. Not so easy to find slow action motors at the smaller shows.

 

The one thing that some layouts have suffered from is the route setting where sometimes a turnout or two doesn't throw. For this reason I may well switch to Cobalts on the next layout as this will likely rely on semi automatic operation and won't have the large number of turnouts on previous layouts.

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I have used Tortoises on my layout with scratch built track, and PECO usually without crossing switching in 00 and with crossing switching in 009/H0e.  I think most of the advantages and disadvantages of both systems have been mention, except that on a big layout the loud "clack" from a PECO (or similar solenoid) does give an indication that the point has actually fired.  This is fine if actuating a single motor but if points are wired in pairs or more, the clack only says at least one has moved.

 

Actually that may be one benefit not mentioned for solenoid types - the ability to run two or several motors (with CDU) from a single switch (in my case stud).  I guess you could do this with Tortoise types but it would probably be a bit more complex.  

 

As others have said the force from a solenoid motor is quite substantial and hand built track would probably not stand up to it.  On one occasion I had a PECO pin snap such is the force when in use.

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20 hours ago, spikey said:

 

And I'm not sure how they can fall out, unless there's a manufacturing defect.

 

Well, I noticed the pin has a flattened piece in the middle.

I assume this is a simple way of making sure it doesn't come out.  But turning it upside down under the base board means it's naturally wanting to fall out.  Whether the metal washer had anything to do with it, I don't know but I'll document it when I come to take the layout apart.

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21 hours ago, RLWP said:

 

Yep, they're faster than tortoises but still kinder to track than solenoids. I've had good service out of them.  When I first bought mine over ten years ago they were Conrad branded.

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18 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Actually that may be one benefit not mentioned for solenoid types - the ability to run two or several motors (with CDU) from a single switch (in my case stud).  I guess you could do this with Tortoise types but it would probably be a bit more complex.  

 

No problem at all doing this with the Tortoise. These are permanently powered and operated with a simple on-on toggle switch, so you just connect both motors to the same switch (eg for a cross-over). I use DCC-managed Tortoises using the NCE Switch-8 accessory decoder, and where there are two turnouts forming a crossover, both are simply wired to the same port.

 

Where you have a route to set, it could be done with a mimic diagram with the toggle switches inserted into that, so you just flick the switches on the diagram as necessary to set the route. 

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1 hour ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

 

Well, I noticed the pin has a flattened piece in the middle.

I assume this is a simple way of making sure it doesn't come out.  But turning it upside down under the base board means it's naturally wanting to fall out.  Whether the metal washer had anything to do with it, I don't know but I'll document it when I come to take the layout apart.

 

Well, all I know is that on all my SEEPs, the pin is prevented from falling out by the two flattened bits on it - one above and one below the rod/piston/core/wossname.  If there really is only one on yours, that must be a manufacturing fault.

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48 minutes ago, Taigatrommel said:

Yep, they're faster than tortoises but still kinder to track than solenoids. I've had good service out of them.  When I first bought mine over ten years ago they were Conrad branded.

These are as fast as you want them to go. Adjust speed by using a regulated supply such as from an old DC controller.

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1 hour ago, RFS said:

 

No problem at all doing this with the Tortoise. These are permanently powered and operated with a simple on-on toggle switch, so you just connect both motors to the same switch (eg for a cross-over). I use DCC-managed Tortoises using the NCE Switch-8 accessory decoder, and where there are two turnouts forming a crossover, both are simply wired to the same port.

 

Where you have a route to set, it could be done with a mimic diagram with the toggle switches inserted into that, so you just flick the switches on the diagram as necessary to set the route. 

 

Where you have a simple cross-over I can see that that works easily.  I have two 6 road fiddle yards and route selection is through a diode matrix and a single stud for each route in and each route out.  That I think might be more challenging with Tortoise motors.  

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6 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

Where you have a simple cross-over I can see that that works easily.  I have two 6 road fiddle yards and route selection is through a diode matrix and a single stud for each route in and each route out.  That I think might be more challenging with Tortoise motors.  

 

I'd have to look up the wiring diagrams again, but I found it possible to use a rotary switch in a multi-track through fiddle yard to set routes using tortoise/cobalt. At a basic level, working out whether a point needs +ve or -ve voltage to set the route would have been no more difficult* than configuring a diode matrix. I'm happy using either stall motors or solenoids to through points depending what makes more sense for the layout, I did work out in my head how to throw solenoids using a rotary switch too but not had a chance to try it out yet is it's not so easy!

 

*the wiring in this case was more difficult with relays thrown in due to interacting with multiple control panels operating the same points...

 

 

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On 19/07/2019 at 13:24, RLWP said:

 

I have a bagful that I bought from Conrad for my N gauge attempt. I only ever set one up as a test but it did the job. I preferred the faster action than tortoise which I think are far too slow.

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I fell out with Peco motors when I tried to get an N Gauge Electrofrog single slip working with frog polarity switching. I used the Peco Microswitch as recommended and after a week or so I gave up. I then bought 2 Tortoise motors and had the whole thing working in about 1 hour.

 

It also helps that here in the US a Peco motor plus accessory switch is almost as expensive as a Tortoise, which has 2 accessory switches.

 

BUT rather than rest on their laurels, Circuitron really should look at making a more compact version for European prototype modellers, it is a 35 year old design after all.

 

Regards,

 

John P

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On ‎20‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 10:36, Taigatrommel said:

 

Yep, they're faster than tortoises but still kinder to track than solenoids. I've had good service out of them.  When I first bought mine over ten years ago they were Conrad branded.

 

Does anybody know what the stall current of the Conrad / White Label point motors is? I need 11 for a layout and I am trying to work out what size power supply I need. The data sheet just quotes 1 amp, but I assume that is not the stall current, otherwise they will  get very hot.

 

Thanks,


Roy

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4 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Does anybody know what the stall current of the Conrad / White Label point motors is? I need 11 for a layout and I am trying to work out what size power supply I need. The data sheet just quotes 1 amp, but I assume that is not the stall current, otherwise they will  get very hot.

 

Thanks,


Roy

The 1 Amp would be the rating of the power supply, NOT the continuous power drawn by each motor.

 

Take a look at this diagram for some hints. Method 2 would seem the best. Or maybe 3. Be careful of some other posts as they wander of all over the place!

 

 

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20 hours ago, jpendle said:

I fell out with Peco motors when I tried to get an N Gauge Electrofrog single slip working with frog polarity switching. I used the Peco Microswitch as recommended and after a week or so I gave up. I then bought 2 Tortoise motors and had the whole thing working in about 1 hour.

 

If you mean the PL-13 switch, I have heard several people complain that these are unreliable.

I have had some fail on me too; 2 out of 8 on a layout when I first exhibited it. I felt this was an unacceptable failure rate.

 

I have used Peco & Seep motors with external microswitches but these require careful setup. I can understand someone preferring to use something else with an internal switch that works.

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