S&DJR "Bulldog" 0-6-0

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

 

I'm not sure if this is best placed here or in the S&DJR Prototype Forum, so Mods please feel free to move it across!

 

As someone of limited knowledge in such matters and yet with a local interest, I was wondering what were the differences, if any, between the S&DJR Bulldog 0-6-0 and it's Midland progenitor.

 

I seem to remember that Nick Ridgeway built such an animal that was the subject of an article in Practical Model Railways somewhere in the mid-1980s, but sadly my copy has long since gone.

 

I should ideally like to create a 4mm version, in Prussian Blue of course, and if those who know could point me toward the best source of information, I'd be very happy indeed!

 

Many thanks and best regards,

 

Mark

[wagonman]

The best source is Bradley and Milton's Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History (ISBN 0 7153 5956 8) published by David & Charles back in 1973! The Bulldogs were supplied in two batches of five, nos 62 to 66 in early 1896, and 72 to 76 i 1902. The latter were identical to the MR design being part of a batch  being built for the company that were diverted to the SDJR – which is why they arrived painted red. It was one of this batch that Nick Ridgway built. The earlier batch had a few minor detail differences and smaller tenders. Between 1914 and 1920 they were rebuilt with G7 belpaire boilers, Deeley design cabs and slightly longer frames. They also all now had the correct 3250 gallon tenders and were effectively standard 3Fs – and painted black.

 

You don't say what period you are intending to model, nor in which scale, but if you want a blue Bulldog you'll have to set your model before 1914 and probably scratch built most of it as I don't know of a kit for the Johnson M class.

 

 

 

[Londontram]

He does state 4mm scale in his original post.

[2996 Victor]

7 hours ago, wagonman said:

The best source is Bradley and Milton's Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History (ISBN 0 7153 5956 8) published by David & Charles back in 1973! The Bulldogs were supplied in two batches of five, nos 62 to 66 in early 1896, and 72 to 76 i 1902. The latter were identical to the MR design being part of a batch  being built for the company that were diverted to the SDJR – which is why they arrived painted red. It was one of this batch that Nick Ridgway built. The earlier batch had a few minor detail differences and smaller tenders. Between 1914 and 1920 they were rebuilt with G7 belpaire boilers, Deeley design cabs and slightly longer frames. They also all now had the correct 3250 gallon tenders and were effectively standard 3Fs – and painted black.

 

You don't say what period you are intending to model, nor in which scale, but if you want a blue Bulldog you'll have to set your model before 1914 and probably scratch built most of it as I don't know of a kit for the Johnson M class.

 

 

 

Hi,

 

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply and the pointer to the Bradley and Milton book - I'll see if I can source a copy.

 

I'm a confirmed 4mm-o-phile, and the period would be 1900, give or take a year either way. So, for a blue example, it would be a loco from the first batch.

 

I do remember Nick R's model in the Midland Red livery. I had it in my mind that it was kit-built or kit-bashed, but it's 30-odd years ago so my memory is probably faulty!

 

Many thanks once again, and best regards,

 

Mark

Edited July 22, 2019 by 2996 Victor

[queensquare]

9 hours ago, wagonman said:

The best source is Bradley and Milton's Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History (ISBN 0 7153 5956 8) published by David & Charles back in 1973! The Bulldogs were supplied in two batches of five, nos 62 to 66 in early 1896, and 72 to 76 i 1902. The latter were identical to the MR design being part of a batch  being built for the company that were diverted to the SDJR – which is why they arrived painted red. It was one of this batch that Nick Ridgway built. The earlier batch had a few minor detail differences and smaller tenders. Between 1914 and 1920 they were rebuilt with G7 belpaire boilers, Deeley design cabs and slightly longer frames. They also all now had the correct 3250 gallon tenders and were effectively standard 3Fs – and painted black.

 

You don't say what period you are intending to model, nor in which scale, but if you want a blue Bulldog you'll have to set your model before 1914 and probably scratch built most of it as I don't know of a kit for the Johnson M class.

 

 

 

 

Not quite correct, at least one of the Bulldogs, S&D No. 73 (LMS 3218), made it to 1930 in lined blue, running for a couple of years in blue with hand painted insignia - picture in Essery and Jenkinson LMS locomotives Vol 4 (1987, ISBN 0-947971-16-5). According to Essery and Jenkinson the SDJR 3Fs started being repainted in black from 1921 on and were all but identical to their MR cousins but could be identified by having an extra leading sandbox. All had 2750 gallon Midland pattern tenders.

 

All that said, it gets confusing as the picture refered to above clearly shows old 73 in lined blue with hand painted 'LMS' but the picture below from my collection (post 1923 due to power clasification on cabside) shows no evidence of lining. The Bulldogs were very popular with S&D men, many prefering them to the 4Fs and they were regularly used on passenger turns. Could one or more have been repainted back into lined blue in the final years prior to 1930?

 

When I get round to building my No. 73 for my Bath project set in the mid 1920s it will be lined blue!

 

 

Jerry

Edited July 22, 2019 by queensquare

[queensquare]

Im even more confused now. Ive just looked closely at the Essery picture of 73 and Im not entirely convinced it is lined. It is one of the second batch diverted from a Midland order yet has the front sandboxes as on the pure SDJR ones.

As for Bulldogs being blue, Ive just quickly gone through some of my pictures and 63 and 64 are clearly still lined blue in the 1920s, 62 is definately black !

Oh the joys of researching loco liveries from old black and white photos!!

 

 

 

[wagonman]

I was paraphrasing from Bradley and Milton who did admit that the whole 3F history on the SDJR was...complicated. A couple even received H class boilers before the G7s came along. But as Mark is looking at the early 1900s things should be simpler.

 

George Norton did an etched brass 4mm scale kit – I think that was what Nick used – which is still available from London Road Models https://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/locos-tenders-chassis/midland-railway/

They also do both sizes of Johnson tender. My days as a SDRT member are long past so I'll happily concede to Jerry from here on.

[queensquare]

5 minutes ago, wagonman said:

I was paraphrasing from Bradley and Milton who did admit that the whole 3F history on the SDJR was...complicated. A couple even received H class boilers before the G7s came along. But as Mark is looking at the early 1900s things should be simpler.

 

George Norton did an etched brass 4mm scale kit – I think that was what Nick used – which is still available from London Road Models https://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/locos-tenders-chassis/midland-railway/

They also do both sizes of Johnson tender. My days as a SDRT member are long past so I'll happily concede to Jerry from here on.

 

Hi Richard, I'm not convinced I'm right either - as you say, its complicated!

I rather fancy a blue one with an H boiler, from memory I'm not sure they quite made it into my period but I could live with that!

 

Jerry

[2996 Victor]

Dear both,

 

Thanks once again for all the info - it certainly is a complicated subject!

 

Although I've had a lifelong interest in the S&D (slightly frowned upon by my dear departed Dad, who was GWR), it was always something of a side interest, although we were lucky enough to be aboard the first train hauled by 88 after her restoration. As such, my knowledge is still fairly superficial - it's time to delve deeper!

 

Thanks also for the pointer to the kit - I'll check it out. It's so annoying when you can half remember things!

 

As mentioned, my period is around 1900, which is the case with all my projects, which allows some interesting comparison between companies. The Johnson style of boiler fittings and round-topped firebox make for an elegant locomotive.

 

All the best,

 

Mark

[queensquare]

Here you are Mark, 62 positively glowing.

 

Jerry

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by queensquare

[2996 Victor]

46 minutes ago, queensquare said:

Here you are Mark, 62 positively glowing.

 

Jerry

 

 

Thanks, Jerry! That's absolutely perfect!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

Dear Richard and Jerry,

 

Once again, my ignorance is showing.....

 

I've had a look at the London Road Models link - thank you - and going by the build-dates they quote, I presume the round-topped Class 3 is the appropriate kit (rather than the 1698), although the finished model shown appears to have a later smoke box door and safety valve cover.

 

Also, the firebox on the model 3F appears to be longer than that on No.62 in Jerry's photograph, although that's probably just an optical illusion!

 

And lastly, which size tender is No.62 drawing?

 

Please forgive my ignorance, but in the words of that wonderful actor Alastair Sim (in "Green for Danger"), I am a child in these matters!

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, queensquare said:

 

Oh the joys of researching loco liveries from old black and white photos!!

With you there: hope that the lining is a reliable indicator, but that only works if the pattern changed (e.g. double lining to single) at the same time as the main paint colour changed and it was documented! (Fallen foul of that, but not on SDJR issues about which I am fairly lacking in knowledge.)

 

I suppose one solution is to only take photographs in monochrome, and never show anyone else your models, but that’s a step too far, I think.

[03060]

Jerry,

 

Thanks for the photo of 64 in lined blue in the 1920's ....I've just finished my on / off 5 year build of her in 3mm scale ....and painted her Black ......with soldered on numerals !!  

 

Regards,

Ian (the devastated.)

[Compound2632]

21 hours ago, wagonman said:

The best source is Bradley and Milton's Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History (ISBN 0 7153 5956 8) published by David & Charles back in 1973! The Bulldogs were supplied in two batches of five, nos 62 to 66 in early 1896, and 72 to 76 i 1902. The latter were identical to the MR design being part of a batch  being built for the company that were diverted to the SDJR – which is why they arrived painted red. It was one of this batch that Nick Ridgway built. The earlier batch had a few minor detail differences and smaller tenders. Between 1914 and 1920 they were rebuilt with G7 belpaire boilers, Deeley design cabs and slightly longer frames. They also all now had the correct 3250 gallon tenders and were effectively standard 3Fs – and painted black.

 

You don't say what period you are intending to model, nor in which scale, but if you want a blue Bulldog you'll have to set your model before 1914 and probably scratch built most of it as I don't know of a kit for the Johnson M class.

 

Mark does say c. 1900, so a blue engine from the 1896 Derby batch. (Although if his elastic could stretch to late 1902, he could have a red one from the Neilson batch too!) At this date, the Midland was ordering huge quantities of standard goods engines from the trade, to the specification usually designated Class M - it was from the last of these orders, with Neilsons, that the second batch of Bulldogs was abstracted. Derby had last built standard goods engines itself in 1888 - the ten engines of the 1798 Class. However, the dimensions given by Bradley & Milton are a better match for the Kitson and Dubs engines - classes J and J2 (150 psi boiler pressure); also the engines that immediately preceded these, the Neilson Goods. But Jerry's magnificent photo of No. 62 has the continuous curve to the cab steps, that came in with Class J.

 

It is rather disappointing that there isn't currently a 4 mm/ft kit for the standard Johnson goods engine - once upon a time there was an Alan Gibson kit but that's most unlikely to see the light of day again, I gather. London Road Models have a kit for the 1698 Class mineral engines. These of course have 4'10.5" drivers rather than the 5'2.5" drivers of the goods engines; the boiler is pitched 2" lower and there are numerous minor dimensional differences around the cab side sheeting* but I have wondered whether with the aid of Brassmasters 3F splashers and chassis kit, or frames from Alan Gibson, something could be done?

 

*As tabulated by Adrian Tester, in R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives Vol. 4 (Wild Swan, 1989) pp. 26-27.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Compound2632

[wagonman]

Looking at it again I'd say the LRM kit Loco24 is of one of the locos fitted with the larger H class boiler – nos 63 and 66 – in 1914. If definitely looks chunkier than 62 in Jerry's photo.

 

As an alternative, wasn't David Smith producing a kit for a Scottie?

[Compound2632]

Yes, that LRM kit is for the engines either built or reboilered with the larger H boiler - in intermediate step t the G7 rebuild.

 

The Scotties were rather smaller machines - I looked at their relationship to other Johnson engines, in particular the 1102 Class 0-6-0Ts, here.

[wagonman]

Yes I know the Scotties were smaller but they were at least pukkah SDJR locomotives – and were painted blue in c1900!

 

 

 

 

[queensquare]

All S&D locos were painted blue in 1900 so you can take your pick!

 

I cant help much regarding the LRM range, being a predominantly 2mm modeller I dont know it well enough. I would drop the owner,John Redrup, an email. Ive built several LRM locos for customers and I've always found him to be very helpful.

 

Regarding the tender I would suspect its a 2750 one although as with many aspects, tenders can be a bit of a minefield. I seem to remember there was a series on S&D tenders in the Trust Bulletin some years ago.

 

Bit more eye candy. This is the late Denys Brownlee's Bulldog scratchbuilt in 2mm scale which is now in my care.

 

 

 

[2996 Victor]

2 hours ago, wagonman said:

Yes I know the Scotties were smaller but they were at least pukkah SDJR locomotives – and were painted blue in c1900!

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Richard, that's an interesting thought - if my scratch-building skills were up to, well, scratch, I could be easily swayed!

 

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

All S&D locos were painted blue in 1900 so you can take your pick!

 

I cant help much regarding the LRM range, being a predominantly 2mm modeller I dont know it well enough. I would drop the owner,John Redrup, an email. Ive built several LRM locos for customers and I've always found him to be very helpful.

 

Regarding the tender I would suspect its a 2750 one although as with many aspects, tenders can be a bit of a minefield. I seem to remember there was a series on S&D tenders in the Trust Bulletin some years ago.

 

Bit more eye candy. This is the late Denys Brownlee's Bulldog scratchbuilt in 2mm scale which is now in my care.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Jerry, it's always good to know how helpful proprietors are - I might well get in touch with LRM in the near future and see what they say!

 

And that's a lovely model - I'd be a happy bunny indeed if I could achieve that in 4mm scale, never mind 2mm!

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

[Compound2632]

I should mention that I had a chat with Jol Wilkinson on the LRM stand at one of this Spring's exhibitions; I commented on the lack of a Johnson standard goods engine - Class M would be most typical (and suitable for M&GN as well as S&DJR). What I learned is that at least with LRM, new kits tend to arise out of there being an individual who wants that particular locomotive and has the skills to develop a kit - CAD and test build - rather than being developed by John Redrup speculatively. 

 

A case in point being LRM's two Great Northern 0-8-0s - kits developed because the engines are wanted for Shipley MRS's Clayton layout. (I was reminded of that by the mention in the current MRJ.)

Edited July 23, 2019 by Compound2632
Example of LRM GN octopods.

[03060]

Further to Jerry's useful comments and excellent photos above regarding the difficulties in getting the correct livery / time period I'm just enjoying reading Footplate Over The Mendips by Peter Smith but have picked up on the following :

 

On p.22 he quotes the renowned Donald Beale as remembering vividly when Bulldog No.66 returned from Highbridge after her rebuild in 1920, saying " I can see her now as she dropped down on number four ash pit road at Bath shed, in her spotless coat of blue paint."

 

Several pages later there is a photo of said No.66 at Wellow (allegedly) taken in 1920  but in what looks like black livery !

 

Reading further into Jerry's comments (if I've understood them correctly) it's possible that this photo is actually a post 1923  picture as the power classification can be seen on the cab side.

 

 

As regards my own Bulldog No.64 dillema I've decided to try and over spray the incorrect Black livery with Blue ....and if it doesn't look right then I will just strip it all off and start again, the front buffer beam needs redoing anyway as it took a dive off of a shelf and needed both front buffers replacing (my own fault !)

 

Regards,

Ian.

[Jol Wilkinson]

On 23/07/2019 at 14:50, Compound2632 said:

I should mention that I had a chat with Jol Wilkinson on the LRM stand at one of this Spring's exhibitions; I commented on the lack of a Johnson standard goods engine - Class M would be most typical (and suitable for M&GN as well as S&DJR). What I learned is that at least with LRM, new kits tend to arise out of there being an individual who wants that particular locomotive and has the skills to develop a kit - CAD and test build - rather than being developed by John Redrup speculatively. 

 

A case in point being LRM's two Great Northern 0-8-0s - kits developed because the engines are wanted for Shipley MRS's Clayton layout. (I was reminded of that by the mention in the current MRJ.)

Just to clarify the situation with new kit designs at London Road Models. John Redrup has developed an approach twith modellers who are interested in a kit for a particular prototype. The usually have have fairly comprehensive knowledge of that loco, coach, etc. and access to the relevant information, but he probably doesn't. John is able to offer advice on the design process, etching tool requirements, get casting patterns and moulds produced, etc. Each member of this collaboration using their knowledge to jointly create a a kit.

 

With LNWR models, the design work normally falls to me, as the unpaid assistant, but as Stephen has pointed out, kits for models from other railways have largely been a collaborative effort on recent years..

[NHY 581]

On 22/07/2019 at 09:40, queensquare said:

Im even more confused now. Ive just looked closely at the Essery picture of 73 and Im not entirely convinced it is lined. It is one of the second batch diverted from a Midland order yet has the front sandboxes as on the pure SDJR ones.

As for Bulldogs being blue, Ive just quickly gone through some of my pictures and 63 and 64 are clearly still lined blue in the 1920s, 62 is definately black !

Oh the joys of researching loco liveries from old black and white photos!!

 

 

 

 

Evening Jerry. 

You may have since resolved this.....but.....If you refer to Burnham to Evercreech Junction (Middleton Press), plate 33 is that of newly renumbered 3218 ( 73). The loco is undoubtedly in lined Prussian Blue at Highbridge in July 1930. Lettered LMS but definitely Blue. 

 

Rob. 

[Ian M.]

Picking up this old thread and possibly taking it a bit off topic. Speaking of blue vs. black liveries, were the 1922 Armstrong-Whitworth MR 4Fs delivered to the SDJR in Prussian Blue or Black? I've seen references to both and of course Bachmann produced theirs in blue. But the experts are here so I thought I could settle this once and for all.