Making a start in hand built track.

[justin1985]

20 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

Note that FR1 or FR2 pcb single sided plain board is quite available on AliExpress’s around 5dollars for 10 small sheets 

 

FR1 and FR2 are the correct designators for paxolin or other bonded  papers 

 

Useful info there, thanks! However there does only seem to be one seller on AliExpress, and only selling one thickness (1.5mm) of the FR2 board - so far as I could find.  However, knowing what to search for, there did seem to be a bit more choice on eBay, funnily enough.

 

20 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

Note FR4 ( fibreglass ) dominates the industry these days because FR1 and 2 are not good for multilayer construction and hence have largely disappeared from recent designs, FR4 is a significantly superior material that makes excellent sleepers ( and is now cheaper then FR1/FR2 but it’s much harder to cut 

 

Indeed - good material - but murder to cut! FastTracks in Canada seem to sell their PCB strip as milled frets, so I guess theirs is made from this material.  A quick Google seems to suggest it can be laser cut, although all the blogs etc I saw seem to assume you have already taken the copper layer off before cutting - not what we'd want to do!

[AndyID]

13 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

Useful info there, thanks! However there does only seem to be one seller on AliExpress, and only selling one thickness (1.5mm) of the FR2 board - so far as I could find.  However, knowing what to search for, there did seem to be a bit more choice on eBay, funnily enough.

 

 

Indeed - good material - but murder to cut! FastTracks in Canada seem to sell their PCB strip as milled frets, so I guess theirs is made from this material.  A quick Google seems to suggest it can be laser cut, although all the blogs etc I saw seem to assume you have already taken the copper layer off before cutting - not what we'd want to do!

 

 

I doubt if you'll find FR-1 or FR-2 in anything other than 1.6 mm (nominal) thickness. AFAIK It's only ever single sided.

 

You can cut FR-4 into strips with a decent guillotine (the type typically used for cropping large pieces of card, paper, photos etc.) or with a shear if you have access to one. When cutting FR-4 strips with a guillotine the strips do tend to twist a bit but you can untwist them between your fingers.

 

Today I received some FR-1 to make circuit boards on a cheap milling machine. I just tried slicing a strip off with my guillotine. It's didn't go well. The strip disintegrated! I'm not sure how strips are manufactured from FR-1 and 2 but I suspect the process is more akin to punching in a die press.

 

If you are sawing, routing or milling any of this stuff, watch out for the dust. The particles are very fine. FR-4 might be the more dangerous because of the glass particles but phenolic-paper, the substrate in FR-1 and 2, could be just as bad.

[St Enodoc]

On 17/08/2019 at 19:26, hayfield said:

 

For Code 75 bullhead rail both the Scalefour Society and the EM Gauge society sell filing jigs, both sell a switch rail jig and a crossing jig for 1-5, 6. 7 & 8 crossings in the mid £30 range .  the Scalefour Society also sell a filing jig for 1-9, 10, 11 & 12 angles.. The use of a decent file helps as there is a lot more rail to file away than 2 mm scale, plus I doubt if it would work with a switch jig. You either need to be a member, go to one of their shows or befriend a member if you want to buy any. On the basis a ready assembled Vee is £14.40 and switch rails are £14.21, they soon recoup their cost

 

For those wanting to just make the odd turnout its easy to make a home made assembly jig from thick card or coffee stirrers, or thin aluminum strip, just file free hand using the jig as a gauge 

 

Do buy 2 or 3 decent 6" or 8" files, plus a couple of needle files ( small round and a triangle) to clean up the foot and web ) and some fine emery cloth tp deburr rails

Sound advice from John. I'd just add that the files you are looking for should be flat files with at least one safe edge. I use second cut rather than bastard or smooth. I actually use 10" files, which I find easier to hold flat and square. Don't be fooled by anyone who says that for small jobs you need small files!.

[Johnson52]

Wow this post keeps going. 

 

Well from my first post I've abandoned the SMP plastic kits and now going down the route of ply sleepers and Exactoscale chairs. Just deciding which society to join to order the parts from.

 

Ive made my own sleepers for testing purposes but there too thick as I only had 3mm knocking about. 

 

Cant wait for the parts and gauges to arrive.  

[hayfield]

On 11/09/2019 at 04:50, St Enodoc said:

Sound advice from John. I'd just add that the files you are looking for should be flat files with at least one safe edge. I use second cut rather than bastard or smooth. I actually use 10" files, which I find easier to hold flat and square. Don't be fooled by anyone who says that for small jobs you need small files!.

 

 

Totally agree about the size and cut of files for the initial work, I also have an 8" knife file which I find easy to use to take the heads off of the switch rails.

 

 

For finishing off I use both 2nd and smooth cut 6" files, sometimes needle files are also useful in the final finishing off. plus years ago I bought an ultra fine file for polishing  the rails

 

Cannot remember if I mentioned various grades of emery paper

[hayfield]

On 11/09/2019 at 19:51, Johnson52 said:

Wow this post keeps going. 

 

Well from my first post I've abandoned the SMP plastic kits and now going down the route of ply sleepers and Exactoscale chairs. Just deciding which society to join to order the parts from.

 

Ive made my own sleepers for testing purposes but there too thick as I only had 3mm knocking about. 

 

Cant wait for the parts and gauges to arrive.  

 

Scaleforum will be at Stoke Mandeville in Aylesbury at the end of the month for those who require 4 mm scale, hopefully they will have plenty of stocks. C&L will also be there wil stocks of their own products including their new 00 gauge track base

 

I had an excellent service from Exactoscale for some 7 mm scale bits, OK you pay a 15% premium but they do not operate with voluntary staff !!

 

[martin_wynne]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

Scaleforum will be at Stoke Mandeville in Aylesbury at the end of the month for those who require 4 mm scale, hopefully they will have plenty of stocks. C&L will also be there wil stocks of their own products including their new 00 gauge track base

 

Also at Scaleforum they are running track-building workshops on making crossing vees and switch blades, and also a chance to build an Exactoscale turnout kit and bring it away with you. You need to sign up in advance and quick -- see this post from Terry Bendall:

 

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=69757#p69757

 

I don't know if it is for members only, but you can join the society on the day.

 

Contact email:  scaleforum@ followed by scalefour.org

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited September 17, 2019 by martin_wynne
email added

[dogsbody1542]

I have an L shaped layout which is currently using code 100 rail and turnouts. I would like to extend this into a U shape and I thought I might try to build my own points and use  C & L or SMP flexitrack. I guess the question is would I use 00-sf to construct the points? If so would I need to use code 75 rail and a conversion piece to go from 100 to 75?

 

Frank

 

[Siberian Snooper]

11 hours ago, dogsbody1542 said:

I have an L shaped layout which is currently using code 100 rail and turnouts. I would like to extend this into a U shape and I thought I might try to build my own points and use  C & L or SMP flexitrack. I guess the question is would I use 00-sf to construct the points? If so would I need to use code 75 rail and a conversion piece to go from 100 to 75?

 

Frank

 

 

I would just butt the railheads together, you will need some packing under the code 75 track to bring the railheads up level. Take your time building the turnouts and you will be well rewarded. I build the Vee crossings first and then add the two outer rails and then add the switch and closure rails, once I have tested it I finally add the check rails.

 

 

[hayfield]

13 hours ago, dogsbody1542 said:

I have an L shaped layout which is currently using code 100 rail and turnouts. I would like to extend this into a U shape and I thought I might try to build my own points and use  C & L or SMP flexitrack. I guess the question is would I use 00-sf to construct the points? If so would I need to use code 75 rail and a conversion piece to go from 100 to 75?

 

Frank

 

 

 

Frank

 

Before thinking about using code 75 rail and 00SF gauge I would suggest you look at the wheel sets on your stock, if they are fine then go ahead, 2 methods of joining code 75 rail to code 100 are, firstly use the teco conversion rail joiners. The second is to file a slot at the end of the code 100 rail big enough to hold the code 75 rail then solder both together

[dogsbody1542]

Thanks to all who responded to my question. I have read and digested all the various postings on this site but have to confess that the more I read, the more I am filled with trepidation about building the turnouts I become. I am thinking that just having a go is the best way forward. If it turns to the proverbial then nothing lost other than a bit of time and some money, but am sure that the gains outnumber the negatives.

 

Frank

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, dogsbody1542 said:

Thanks to all who responded to my question. I have read and digested all the various postings on this site but have to confess that the more I read, the more I am filled with trepidation about building the turnouts I become. I am thinking that just having a go is the best way forward. If it turns to the proverbial then nothing lost other than a bit of time and some money, but am sure that the gains outnumber the negatives.

 

Frank

Yes, have a go Frank. As I've said before elsewhere, your first one will probably be rubbish. Your second one will work but might not look too good. Your third will be fine and you'll never look back.

[hayfield]

One good thing about ply timbers and plastic chair construction, is that if you go wrong let the solvent dry out completely (24 hours) then you can get a craft knife blade under the chair and it will part from the timber. You then can re-set it again

 

Preforming the rails first takes most of the tension out of them (a little tension sometimes is beneficial). Then just keep checking the work as you go along, the biggest issue I have found with novice track builders is trying to rush the build. Though everyone wants go get a result as quickly as possible.

[martin_wynne]

36 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Preforming the rails first takes most of the tension out of them

 

Yes, and one of the most important bits of pre-forming is to put the set bend in the diverging stock rail.

 

Omitting to do that is one of the commonest beginner errors, and it makes it 10 times more difficult to get the rest of it to work. Lay the preformed rail on the template to check it. If you use a Templot template the set is clearly marked, and you can print extra copies to use as jigs and guides after fixing the timbers on the first template.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

15 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Yes, and one of the most important bits of pre-forming is to put the set bend in the diverging stock rail.

 

Omitting to do that is one of the commonest beginner errors, and it makes it 10 times more difficult to get the rest of it to work. Lay the preformed rail on the template to check it. If you use a Templot template the set is clearly marked, and you can print extra copies to use as jigs and guides after fixing the timbers on the first template.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

I agree its up there with what I have described, and to a certain degree kit manufacturers,

 

Certainly when I started building SMP kits Ii was not mentioned in the instructions or shown on the plan. From memory does not say to use gauges, but copy the plan !!.

 

The original C&L instructions make no mention of making a set in the curved stock rail, their plans show the"straight planing" on the switch rail, but again no mention of a set in the stock rail. The new website has no instructions for building turnouts or crossings. I will have a word with Phil over the weekend

[RedgateModels]

Think I'm going to cheat (sorry Martin) with the pointwork on RPG (see my Blog here 

) and file a recess in the side of the stock rail to accept the switch blade. I've seen this done on quite a few layouts and it will help with the complex pointwork I have laid out I think.

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Martin

 

I agree its up there with what I have described, and to a certain degree kit manufacturers,

 

Certainly when I started building SMP kits Ii was not mentioned in the instructions or shown on the plan. From memory does not say to use gauges, but copy the plan !!.

 

The original C&L instructions make no mention of making a set in the curved stock rail, their plans show the"straight planing" on the switch rail, but again no mention of a set in the stock rail. The new website has no instructions for building turnouts or crossings. I will have a word with Phil over the weekend

SMP kits certainly used to include a gauge - that little rectangle of aluminium was 16.5 mm wide and about 1.15 mm thick (supposedly for check/wing rail gaps). I still use one from time to time. Not sure if it's in the current ones though.

 

Definitely no mention of the set in the curved stock rail though - or a joggle in the straight one.

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

SMP kits certainly used to include a gauge - that little rectangle of aluminium was 16.5 mm wide and about 1.15 mm thick (supposedly for check/wing rail gaps). I still use one from time to time. Not sure if it's in the current ones though.

 

Definitely no mention of the set in the curved stock rail though - or a joggle in the straight one.

 

 

I still have several of these, never use them for the track gauge, but fine for a wing rail gauge

 

Only use joggles if the design requires it, but remember some advising to file a pocket in the side or the stock rail to accept the switch rail (as per Peco)

[dogsbody1542]

If you are being asked to pay over £50 for a turnout kit and the instructions are not including a vital action to ensure the correct and satisfactory operation of that turnout, then may I suggest that this step is included in the instructions asap! I can only go by what Martin has posted here with regard to the "set" and his statement that this step is vital to ensure the correct operation of the completed turnout(point set). " A word with Phil over the weekend" seems to be a somewhat layed back response to what seems to be a big omission, particularly when you consider the price of this kit.

 

 

Frank

Edited September 25, 2019 by dogsbody1542

[hayfield]

Frank

 

Firstly don't have a go at me for something which is totally out of my control,

 

Secondly the instructions I have I obtained long before Phil was associated with C&L, the last time I bought a turnout kit (rather than components) was from Brian Lewis, Brian sold the business to Pete many years ago

 

Thirdly I was looking on the C&L website to see if the instructions were available as a download.  Nowhere have I stated C&L kits  came without any instructions. They may or may not come automatically with kits, I don't need to buy individual kits so I cannot confirm either way

 

I am certain if you are genuine customer for a turnout kit, when ordering a one from Phil, if you asked him for a set of instructions, I am certain a set of the latest (Pete Lewlywn) instructions would be forthcoming, most customers who buy these kits simply don't need them !! It is also becoming more common (not only in model railway circles) to down load instructions rather than have a paper set.

 

I will speak with Phil over the weekend. It will come up in conversation at a time which is convenient to both of us. I certainly will not demand he gives me a set the moment I see him. 

 

Please bear in mind Phil stepped in and ensured that C&L components were still made available to modellers, he is the first C&L owner to have commissioned several new tools for many years, He is the first C&L owner to develop new plastic products again for years. Phil has and is in the process of investing many thousands of £'s of his own money. New products are in the pipeline, news will follow soon

[hayfield]

16 hours ago, dogsbody1542 said:

If you are being asked to pay over £50 for a turnout kit and the instructions are not including a vital action to ensure the correct and satisfactory operation of that turnout, then may I suggest that this step is included in the instructions asap! I can only go by what Martin has posted here with regard to the "set" and his statement that this step is vital to ensure the correct operation of the completed turnout(point set). " A word with Phil over the weekend" seems to be a somewhat layed back response to what seems to be a big omission, particularly when you consider the price of this kit.

 

 

Frank

 

 

Frank

 

I see you have edited your initial posting moderating your tone

 

As it happens I actually spoke with Phil the day before your posting about instructions for these kits and will as I said speak with him again at the weekend. As I said there are a set of revised instructions produced by Pete Lewellyn which were far more detailed than those I was referring to which date back to Len Newmans time back in the 80's. Owing to a new item which will be added to the product range the latest set of instructions will have to be either revised or replaced work is under way

 

The format of the kits are now sold has also changed, previously complete kits of each size and gauge were kept, meaning a very large number of kits had to be kept in stock at all times, plus in addition a stock of individual components was kept for those who buy parts this way.

 

Phil has a new rationalised system, Chairs, fishplates and timbers are bagged up as kits, these have sufficient parts to complete all normal turnouts and crossings (exception being the outside slip). To this the correct common crossing(s) and switch & plain rails are added along with the desired plan and gauges if required. This means in theory all kits are always in stock and drastically reduces the amount of stock required at any one time, simple and works well most of the time, Yes of course a basic set of instructions for the novice are important, however it is more common that these kits are bought by those who have either built them before or migrated from copperclad construction and have their own prefered way of building trackwork, with these folk instructions are not needed

 

Perhaps the best method is to have an online tuition facility with photo's added to the written instructions, for the novice, or links to others online tuition. Again something I am sure Phil can consider

[dogsbody1542]

   My intention had originally been to purchase a full turnout kit. However, taking into due consideration various posts which refer to gauges and the set on the stock rail, I have decided that the best option would seem to be to get a kit of chairs and sleepers, code 75 rail and 00-sf gauges. I would then use a templot template to facilitate the build.

   If that goes well I will buy the flextrack and further turnout parts to complete the extension to my layout. All my stock runs out of the box on code 75 as I have checked it on a piece of rail. I just don't want to finish up with  track items which wont allow my stock to traverse them. My point about the cost is valid, so I have to ensure that any items purchased will fit seemlessly into my layout.

 

[hayfield]

As I said C&L sell a pack of chairs and timbers sufficient to build the common size turnouts used by modellers, do buy the kit which has the thick timbers (the thin timbers tend to curl upwards slightly if not stuck down securely as the solvent drys out also a similar height to Peco track, this works out far cheaper than buying pacos of 250 std chairs and 100 slide chairs. C&L  also sell the OOsf track gauges, plus sell rail in 2 meter packs. If you do catch the track building bug buying in bulk is cheaper

 

If you are worried about wheel compatibility build to 00 standards. 

 

C&L will be at Stoke Mandeville at the weekend, or Phil can supply mail order

Edited September 26, 2019 by hayfield

[dogsbody1542]

Thanks for that. Stoke Mandeville is rather a long way from Kyle of Lochalsh unfortunately, so will have to buy online.

 

[hayfield]

Give Phil a call next week (like other traders going to weekend shows he is busy sorting stock out for the show over the next 2 days