Making a start in hand built track.

[Campaman]

I have used the tutorials in the past and am quite happy producing templates when needed, it was just reading about how templot was written as Phase 1 and Phase 2 and the ideas behind the storage box, has to me made using the software easier by understanding how the software was designed, maybe its just me being a programmer my self.

[justin1985]

On 23/07/2019 at 11:47, hayfield said:

Given the cost of copperclad strip now ,using plastic timbers and chairs is both cost effective and in my opinion easier. The added bonus is the look !! something blobs of solder cannot reproduce

 

Certainly the Exactoscale turnout timbers 4XX PCT0 at £2.30 for 62 timbers of varying lengths ( enough for 2.5 turnouts)

500 standard chairs for £23 will make about 6 turnouts

100 slide chairs for just under £10 also about 6 turnouts

 

In comparison a pack of Copperclad timbers is about £18 for enough for 3 turnouts, as you can see the cost is on a par with each other and many find glueing easier than soldering

 

Now careful searches on eBay can result in finding items well below RRP

 

How on earth have 4mm scale PCB sleeper strips become so expensive!?

 

Perhaps, in the cosy world of 2mm Scale I've been a bit insulated from changes in the market. As I understand it the 2mm Scale Association bought a very large stock of the appropriate type of PCB board a while back, and some association volunteers guillotine it to size using a dedicated tool.

 

Recently I went to the C&L stand at an exhibition with the intention of buying some 4mm scale PCB strip to use for more robust 2mm scale fiddle yard track, etc. I walked away when he quoted the price. His prices seem even higher than those charged by FastTracks in the US for CNC milled PCB ties: https://www.handlaidtrack.com/copperhead-turnout-ties

 

I remember hearing that it was getting harder to find the appropriate type of resin backed PCB, rather than the fibreglass type that's more common in electronics these days. Is that forcing the price of what remains in the market up?

 

Certainly in 2mm scale, even with the copious use of jigs, I find that the degree of wiggle room you get by using soldered construction rather than glued is invaluable. At least for the crucial areas around the common crossing. A bit of heat and a nudge can be the difference between success and failure, whereas attempting to adjust this on a glued turnout can easily end up with chairs breaking or getting too loose.

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, justin1985 said:

I find that the degree of wiggle room you get by using soldered construction rather than glued is invaluable. At least for the crucial areas around the common crossing. A bit of heat and a nudge can be the difference between success and failure, whereas attempting to adjust this on a glued turnout can easily end up with chairs breaking or getting too loose.

 

Hi Justin,

 

Don't forget there is still traditional rivetted plywood soldered construction, and unlike copper-clad you can fit plastic half-chairs afterwards.

 

Or for something a bit stronger than 1/32" plywood, a wide range of limewood strip sizes is available from model boat suppliers. See for example: https://www.model-dockyard.com/acatalog/Lime.html 

 

Including 4mm x 1.5mm, 4mm x 2mm, etc., for 4mm/ft scale crossing timbers. In fact 4mm x 2mm is exactly to scale for both width and thickness. Other boatbuilding suppliers may be cheaper, but a smaller range. Worth a google.

 

Limewood is a soft easily worked wood (similar/same wood as Basswood). Those thicknesses are too thick for the rivets, but could be drilled for Vero pins: 

 

 

With careful choice of drilled hole size, these should be a tight-enough fit in the thicker timber strip. If you then fit cosmetic half-chairs round them with cyano, that would provide additional strength. The advantage of Vero pins over rivets is that the head is smaller (1.6mm dia.), so making the positioning of them less critical when fitting the half-chairs over them. They are also ready tinned for easy soldering.

 

Vero pins available here (and elsewhere):  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-Terminal-Pins-for-Vero-Boards-Stripboard-Lot-of-100-/172228949934

 

Drawing of Vero pin here:  http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0e57/0900766b80e578ba.pdf

 

See here for examples of Vero pins in use (with copper-clad): https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69145-attention-00-sf-track-builders/&do=findComment&comment=1793752

 

Alternatively, 3D printing of exactopips looks promising:

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited August 14, 2019 by martin_wynne

[Penlan]

1 hour ago, justin1985 said:

 

... I remember hearing that it was getting harder to find the appropriate type of resin backed PCB, rather than the fibreglass type that's more common in electronics these days. Is that forcing the price of what remains in the market up?

I bought sheets of resin backed copper clad and cut strips from that - I have a Unimat 3 with a saw bench attachment (among other accessories) .
A problem these days seems to be to ensure any handmade pointwork etc.,  is going to match the height of any flexitrack you may buy, one or other might need packing up with card.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Penlan

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

How on earth have 4mm scale PCB sleeper strips become so expensive!?

 

Perhaps, in the cosy world of 2mm Scale I've been a bit insulated from changes in the market. As I understand it the 2mm Scale Association bought a very large stock of the appropriate type of PCB board a while back, and some association volunteers guillotine it to size using a dedicated tool.

 

Recently I went to the C&L stand at an exhibition with the intention of buying some 4mm scale PCB strip to use for more robust 2mm scale fiddle yard track, etc. I walked away when he quoted the price. His prices seem even higher than those charged by FastTracks in the US for CNC milled PCB ties: https://www.handlaidtrack.com/copperhead-turnout-ties

 

I remember hearing that it was getting harder to find the appropriate type of resin backed PCB, rather than the fibreglass type that's more common in electronics these days. Is that forcing the price of what remains in the market up?

 

Certainly in 2mm scale, even with the copious use of jigs, I find that the degree of wiggle room you get by using soldered construction rather than glued is invaluable. At least for the crucial areas around the common crossing. A bit of heat and a nudge can be the difference between success and failure, whereas attempting to adjust this on a glued turnout can easily end up with chairs breaking or getting too loose.

 

 

Justin

 

The SMP range was originally old style Paxolin boards which were guillotined to size, unfortunately the quality control on the widths of strip was quite variable

 

One of the previous owners of C&L Brian Lewis told me initially he obtained the sleeper and timber strips which were milled from waste materials from the printed circuit board manufacturers , it was a cheap product. 

 

As the cost of PCB materials became far more expensive the printed board manufacturers had to make far better use of the raw materials to reduce their costs, which was achieved using modern CAD design and computer controlled cutting.

 

Basically the source of cheap surplus materials dried up. So the first wammy was the increased costs of using full priced materials. Then there was a massive rise in the cost of raw materials. !0 years ago we were paying £5 or so for decent glassfibre routed strip, now its about £19 a pack.

 

I take a different view from Martin especially after seeing the recent price rises of 3D parts

 

Firstly there are two alternatives from Exactoscale for plastic timbers

 

4XX PCT0  62 timbers for £2 which will produce between 2 & 3 turnouts  or for either P4 or EM modellers plastic turnout and crossing bases @  £3 each

 

You will need appx 100 standard chairs (£20 per 500) and 20 slide chairs (£8.50 per 100) per turnout

 

Rail @ 1.5 per yard  1.5 yards needed

 

Then all you need is a bit of PCB strip for a tiebar and some metal shim. The cheaper method comes in at £8.71 the dearer is £10.95. Quite a bit of difference between this and a kit of pre-formed parts

 

If you decide you want something a bit better you could start using the Exactoscale special chairs, a turnout then comes in at about £15 in parts, but you will have a turnout far better detailed than anything else available with the exception of the Exactoscale P4 turnout kits which I believe are unavailable at the moment

 

Building your own turnout and crossings despite what some lead us to believe is not that difficult and certainly not expensive

[sharris]

4 hours ago, justin1985 said:

I remember hearing that it was getting harder to find the appropriate type of resin backed PCB, rather than the fibreglass type that's more common in electronics these days. Is that forcing the price of what remains in the market up?

 

Is there anything that makes fibreglass PCB unsuitable?

 

I see Rapid sell SRBP single sided PCB quite cheaply if you want to cut your own non-fibreglass PCB sleepers.

https://www.rapidonline.com/low-cost-copper-clad-srbp-circuit-board-32634

[martin_wynne]

4 minutes ago, sharris said:

Is there anything that makes non-fibreglass PCB unsuitable?

 

 

My red. I think that's what you meant.

 

SRBP is not waterproof, so not suitable for use on garden railways. Single-sided tends to swell and warp if it gets damp. Otherwise SRBP is fine -- the traditional material used on countless layouts over the years.

 

It's sometimes called paxolin, although I think that is a tougher waterproof version using phenolic resin, similar to fabric-based tufnol.

 

Martin.

[justin1985]

53 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Justin

 

The SMP range was originally old style Paxolin boards which were guillotined to size, unfortunately the quality control on the widths of strip was quite variable

 

One of the previous owners of C&L Brian Lewis told me initially he obtained the sleeper and timber strips which were milled from waste materials from the printed circuit board manufacturers , it was a cheap product. 

 

As the cost of PCB materials became far more expensive the printed board manufacturers had to make far better use of the raw materials to reduce their costs, which was achieved using modern CAD design and computer controlled cutting.

 

Basically the source of cheap surplus materials dried up. So the first wammy was the increased costs of using full priced materials. Then there was a massive rise in the cost of raw materials. !0 years ago we were paying £5 or so for decent glassfibre routed strip, now its about £19 a pack.

 

That's interesting back story, thanks Hayfield!

 

I guess the other part of the story is that PCB production in the UK is drying up, and without much commercial use, the supply chain is drying up with it. I recently joined a MakerSpace, and the electronics focused guys there seem to have entirely given up on etching and soldering their own PCBs, even for prototypes. It's so much easier and cheaper for them to commission even a one off PCB from China. 

 

Personally, I don't have any interest in actually building any 4mm pointwork. I'd just originally hoped to be able to use the sleepers as a more robust alternative using 2mm approaches.

 

I suspect by design rather than luck, in 2mm we have plastic sleeper strip that is the same thickness as the usual PCB, and plastic chairs that raise the rail by the same height as etched chairs. So I've evolved my own approach combining the best of both:

 

 

[hayfield]

Justin

 

Looks very good, hope you enjoy the building you are now doing. I could never get used to building track with etched components 

 

My friend Phil who owns C&L is now distributing a range of Finetrax trackwork, not on his website yet but will be soon when he makes time

[polybear]

5 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

How on earth have 4mm scale PCB sleeper strips become so expensive!?

 

Recently I went to the C&L stand at an exhibition with the intention of buying some 4mm scale PCB strip to use for more robust 2mm scale fiddle yard track, etc. I walked away when he quoted the price. His prices seem even higher than those charged by FastTracks in the US for CNC milled PCB ties: https://www.handlaidtrack.com/copperhead-turnout-ties

 

 

 

A comparison of Copperclad sleeper strip costs (3.3mm wide x 1.6mm thick):

 

C&L:  4400mm x 3.3mm = £18.96 + £1.95 postage = £20.91 (equivalent to £27.80 for 6000mm incl.)

Wizard Models:  6000mm x 3.3mm = £12.00 + £3.90 postage = £15.90

SMP:  5486mm x 3mm = £13.50 + £??? postage (equivalent to £14.76 for 6000mm + £??? postage)

Pheonix:  4320 x 1.6mm = £18.95 + £7.00 postage = £25.95 (equivalent to £33.31 for 6000mm incl.)

 

It looks like Master Clanger deserves an extra bowl of soup tonight   (only those of a certain age/mentality will get that one).

Edit:  This isn't the first time C&L has come out expensive recently - Tony Wright was somewhat taken aback at whitemetal solder costs.  A twelve quid difference in cost compared to Wizard Models is pretty noticeable in my book (Just realised - for the sake of 10p extra you can get two packs of strip delivered from Wizard for the price of one from C&L )

 

HTH

Brian

 

(In fairness, I've made no comparison as regards PCB material, quality etc.; I do recall several years ago that SMP was thought to have a little uneven sleeper width compared to C&L, though this could have been an unfortunate one-off.  I've seen Wizard strip at exhibitions, and from what I remember I'd have no hesitation in buying it;  no connections etc. etc.)

 

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by polybear

[martin_wynne]

10 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

A comparison of Copperclad sleeper strip costs (3.3mm wide x 1.6mm thick):

 

 

Hi Brian,

 

My red. SMP is or was or always used to be 1.2mm thick (3/64"). Others are 1.6mm (1/16").

 

(to match Scaleway flexi)

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited August 14, 2019 by martin_wynne

[polybear]

1 minute ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Brian,

 

My red. SMP is or was or always used to be 1.2mm thick (3/64"). Others are 1.6mm (1/16").

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Hi Martin,

 

SMP are now listing it as 1.6mm or 1/16":

 

http://www.marcway.net/list3.php?start=0&col=head&name=PCB

 

HTH

Brian

[hayfield]

7 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

A comparison of Copperclad sleeper strip costs (3.3mm wide x 1.6mm thick):

 

C&L:  4400mm x 3.3mm = £18.96 + £1.95 postage = £20.91 (equivalent to £27.80 for 6000mm)

Wizard Models:  6000mm x 3.3mm = £12.00 + £3.90 postage = £15.90

SMP:  5486mm x 3mm = £13.50 + £??? postage (equivalent to £14.76 for 6000mm + £??? postage)

 

It looks like Master Clanger deserves an extra bowl of soup tonight   (only those of a certain age/mentality will get that one).

Edit:  This isn't the first time C&L has come out expensive recently - Tony Wright was somewhat taken aback at whitemetal solder costs....

 

HTH

Brian

 

(In fairness, I've made no comparison as regards PCB material, quality etc.; I do recall several years ago that SMP was thought to have a little uneven sleeper width compared to C&L, though this could have been an unfortunate one-off.  I've seen Wizard strip at exhibitions, and from what I remember I'd have no hesitation in buying it;  no connections etc. etc.)

 

 

 

Brian

 

SMP used to be Paxoline based plus is cut with a guillotine, with the stock I bought the quality deteriorated over time and the edges were not nice and square as the C&L product. Things may now be different now as Marcway now own SMP

 

As for C&L and Carrs products (solder and flux) Carrs was sold to Precision Paints 2+ years ago, Phil at C&L buys his stock from Precision who control the MRRP, at the same time the previous owner also sold the copperclad side of the business also to Precision Paints, I think Phil now sources his copperclad from other sources.

 

 

[martin_wynne]

17 minutes ago, polybear said:

SMP are now listing it as 1.6mm or 1/16":

 

http://www.marcway.net/list3.php?start=0&col=head&name=PCB

 

 

Hi Brian,

 

But this page says 1.2mm (SMP type) :  http://www.marcway.net/list2.php?col=head&name=PCB

 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited August 14, 2019 by martin_wynne

[polybear]

16 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Brian

 

SMP used to be Paxoline based plus is cut with a guillotine, with the stock I bought the quality deteriorated over time and the edges were not nice and square as the C&L product. Things may now be different now as Marcway now own SMP

 

As for C&L and Carrs products (solder and flux) Carrs was sold to Precision Paints 2+ years ago, Phil at C&L buys his stock from Precision who control the MRRP, at the same time the previous owner also sold the copperclad side of the business also to Precision Paints, I think Phil now sources his copperclad from other sources.

 

 

 

Thanks John - I've added P.P to the list.

So if Phil has cut out the middleman (P.P) does that now mean that C&L copperclad prices will plummet?

[polybear]

17 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Brian,

 

But this page says 1.2mm (SMP type) :  http://www.marcway.net/list2.php?col=head&name=PCB

 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Hmmm.....decision, decisions.... 

[martin_wynne]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

I take a different view from Martin especially after seeing the recent price rises of 3D parts

 

Hi John,

 

I didn't know I'd taken a view.

 

Those 3D prices are for commercial resin-printed parts.

 

Exactopips uses the Exactoscale chairs, same as their P4 plastic bases. For home filament printing of bases in 00/EM -- quite a few modellers now have 3D filament printers, or know friends or club members who have one. The PLA filament is cheap, so it's only the printing time for a hobby use.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

46 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Thanks John - I've added P.P to the list.

So if Phil has cut out the middleman (P.P) does that now mean that C&L copperclad prices will plummet?

 

 

Might be the opposite, the lees you order the more it costs. Trouble is I guess sales of copperclad due to the cost, as the cost of building in plastic is not much more expensive than building in copperclad

[hayfield]

8 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

I didn't know I'd taken a view.

 

Those 3D prices are for commercial resin-printed parts.

 

Exactopips uses the Exactoscale chairs, same as their P4 plastic bases. For home filament printing of bases in 00/EM -- quite a few modellers now have 3D filament printers, or know friends or club members who have one. The PLA filament is cheap, so it's only the printing time for a hobby use.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

 

Martin

 

Perhaps my preference in building turnouts is slightly different from yours, you could say I am a bit more blinkered with my view.

 

I have said many times, I am in total awe of those skilled enough to use the ply & rivet method, they are works of art !! I end up sometimes compressing the rivets too hard and or applying too much heat when soldering and burn the sleepers etc. I just find plastic on plastic so much easier

[martin_wynne]

50 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Martin

 

Perhaps my preference in building turnouts is slightly different from yours, you could say I am a bit more blinkered with my view.

 

I have said many times, I am in total awe of those skilled enough to use the ply & rivet method, they are works of art !! I end up sometimes compressing the rivets too hard and or applying too much heat when soldering and burn the sleepers etc. I just find plastic on plastic so much easier

 

Hi John,

 

I wasn't pushing rivetted ply, just pointing out that if you prefer soldering there is an alternative to copper-clad.

 

My objection to all-plastic construction is simple -- the dreadful pong of the ABS solvent (butanone). I can't sit over it for long. Humbrol Liquid Poly (butyl acetate) is tolerable, but it's not a very aggressive solvent on ABS.

 

For ABS chairs on PLA 3D printed bases, it's even worse (needs dichloromethane). I shall likely be sticking to (sorry!) cyano or epoxy for that.

 

Thinking of making the pips hollow so excess glue can escape. In which case Humbrol Precision Poly (butyl acetate gel) might work -- it won't solve the PLA but might lock into the pips. It's certainly the nicest to use:

 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited August 14, 2019 by martin_wynne

[AndyID]

On 14/08/2019 at 10:59, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Brian,

 

My red. SMP is or was or always used to be 1.2mm thick (3/64"). Others are 1.6mm (1/16").

 

(to match Scaleway flexi)

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Hi Martin,

 

I happened to be looking at this the other day and, for what it's worth, Scaleway flex raises the rail approximately 1.5 mm (assuming the tooling has not changed recently). The sleepers are 0.9 mm thick. Total height including Code 75 rail is 134 thou (3.4 mm).

 

Andy

[PatB]

On the subject of filing jigs, it's worth noting that the 2mm Association book includes details of very simple, cheap jigs for both point blades and crossing vees, intended to be used in conjunction with "files" made from abrasive paper attached to a stick. I'm not sure of the practicality on Code 75 or 100 vs Code 40, given the extra metal to be removed. You could always take the bulk off with a large, coarse toothed file of your choice, finishing on the jig with the emery board type. 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, PatB said:

On the subject of filing jigs, it's worth noting that the 2mm Association book includes details of very simple, cheap jigs for both point blades and crossing vees, intended to be used in conjunction with "files" made from abrasive paper attached to a stick. I'm not sure of the practicality on Code 75 or 100 vs Code 40, given the extra metal to be removed. You could always take the bulk off with a large, coarse toothed file of your choice, finishing on the jig with the emery board type. 

 

For Code 75 bullhead rail both the Scalefour Society and the EM Gauge society sell filing jigs, both sell a switch rail jig and a crossing jig for 1-5, 6. 7 & 8 crossings in the mid £30 range .  the Scalefour Society also sell a filing jig for 1-9, 10, 11 & 12 angles.. The use of a decent file helps as there is a lot more rail to file away than 2 mm scale, plus I doubt if it would work with a switch jig. You either need to be a member, go to one of their shows or befriend a member if you want to buy any. On the basis a ready assembled Vee is £14.40 and switch rails are £14.21, they soon recoup their cost

 

For those wanting to just make the odd turnout its easy to make a home made assembly jig from thick card or coffee stirrers, or thin aluminum strip, just file free hand using the jig as a gauge 

 

Do buy 2 or 3 decent 6" or 8" files, plus a couple of needle files ( small round and a triangle) to clean up the foot and web ) and some fine emery cloth tp deburr rails

Edited August 17, 2019 by hayfield

[Junctionmad]

Just in relation to copper clad , with the pricing of pcbs in China dirt cheap , it’s entirely practical to fabricate pcb track bases for lengths of track , even individual sleepers can be panelized and snapped off 

 

5-10 100mm by 100mm pcbs can be got for 2-5 dollars plus low cost Postage. Yes you’ll wait but it’s cheap 

 

you obviously have to get to grips with a pcb design package but DesignSpark have a free one  

 

Dave  

[Junctionmad]

Note that FR1 or FR2 pcb single sided plain board is quite available on AliExpress’s around 5dollars for 10 small sheets 

 

FR1 and FR2 are the correct designators for paxolin or other bonded  papers 

 

Note FR4 ( fibreglass ) dominates the industry these days because FR1 and 2 are not good for multilayer construction and hence have largely disappeared from recent designs, FR4 is a significantly superior material that makes excellent sleepers ( and is now cheaper then FR1/FR2 but it’s much harder to cut 

 

Dave 

ps it’s not that waste material isn’t available , it’s the pcb industry has largely decamped to China , you can get any amount of offcuts in Shenzhen ! 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Junctionmad