Zomboid Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 I always liked 91s. They were the next big thing on BR when I was making the leap from Thomas to an interest in real trains. I think the Hornby model in about 1991 was the first loco that I selected for myself. It still excites me now when I have an ECML journey and I get one. Never been to Leeds with one (only actually been there once), but I did get KX to Glasgow and back on 91 + MK4 sets. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Davexoc Posted July 23, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 23, 2019 Near Burton Coggles on a day with some strange weather/lighting. Not helped by being the wrong side of the line really.... 19 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TravisM Posted July 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Classsix T said: Ta, I'm shamefully out of the loop with the entire rigmarole. Second post in your link mentions 020 as having been robbed, history repeats (Nimbus)! C6T. I saw 91120 today working into Peterborough with a service south. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Country Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 91108 speeds north at Frinkley Lane, Marston, north of Grantham on May 14. 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted July 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) Last night at KX, 91108 arrived quite late from Edinburgh Edited May 9, 2021 by adb968008 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted July 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2019 From the pictures it obvious that its only the original livery that really suited them. Always amazes the me how many are on maintenance at bounds green most days 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, russ p said: From the pictures it obvious that its only the original livery that really suited them. Always amazes the me how many are on maintenance at bounds green most days Because like they're relative, the APT, they were poorly designed. Whereas the stop gap HST just needed a new engine after several million miles 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classsix T Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 hour ago, jools1959 said: I saw 91120 today working into Peterborough with a service south. Go figure... C6T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 hours ago, russ p said: Always amazes the me how many are on maintenance at bounds green most days Anything which is due for replacement gets the minimum of money spent on it, so instead of major overhauls, frequent minor repairs are necessary. Shortly before the Pendolinos were introduced on the WCML, the Mk3As were in a terrible state. Vestibule doors rarely worked, door windows rarely stayed up, seat cushions were so worn they barely existed at all. The HST Mk3s on the WCML were much more comfortable, presumably because they were expected to be used elsewhere. The 87s & 90s were very run down too. It makes sense really. If your car is getting old, would you replace engine, gearbox & suspension if they were all worn & creaking but still working & the seat fabric was wearing out? It makes sense to use the money to buy a replacement car in much better condition. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 6 hours ago, woodenhead said: Because like they're relative, the APT, they were poorly designed. Whereas the stop gap HST just needed a new engine after several million miles GEC said that the 91's were designed down to a price: undoubtedly the case. As posted above it is also possible that they are now on an end of life maintenance regime in which failure prevention takes a back seat to cost saving. You somewhat simplify the HSTs which suffered from severe problems, especially in the early days: brakes, traction motors, gearboxes, cooler groups, engines etc. Being a much larger fleet meant that it was worthwhile spending the development money to get things right. The engineering of the current HST fleet bears little resemblance to the first service vehicles. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 9 hours ago, russ p said: From the pictures it obvious that its only the original livery that really suited them. Always amazes the me how many are on maintenance at bounds green most days Wasn't that scheme designed specifically for 91s? It definitely works very well on them. Personally I think GNER was a classy livery which suited them too. Don't think so much of Virgin's colours, or East Coast grey. And I can't even remember what NXEC colours looked like. Mostly white, wasn't it? 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted July 24, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2019 Maybe the knackered 91s have been repaired because they are leased? When we return lease cars they have to be in decent nick I didn't spot much but I did spend a couple of hours at KX once when they were quite new. Just a shame I had no idea how to use a camera - this is the only usable shot I got. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 43 minutes ago, Bucoops said: Maybe the knackered 91s have been repaired because they are leased? When we return lease cars they have to be in decent nick When I worked for a ROSCO that was certainly the case. There was a 313 at Bounds Green that had been a Christmas tree for many years: very difficult for WAGN to get it back in traffic, but they did. It was so stripped that it provided a really useful test bed for planning corrosion repairs. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted July 24, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2019 Damn - I was joking! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 7 hours ago, david.hill64 said: GEC said that the 91's were designed down to a price: undoubtedly the case. As posted above it is also possible that they are now on an end of life maintenance regime in which failure prevention takes a back seat to cost saving. You somewhat simplify the HSTs which suffered from severe problems, especially in the early days: brakes, traction motors, gearboxes, cooler groups, engines etc. Being a much larger fleet meant that it was worthwhile spending the development money to get things right. The engineering of the current HST fleet bears little resemblance to the first service vehicles. I was a little tongue in cheek with respect to the HSTs - but as you state the 91 like the wiring was built to a cost otherwise BR wouldn't have got the funds to do the ECML. I found an interesting APT video last night on youtube - it was bits of old TV news articles during testing and there was Cyril Bleasdale talking about by 1982 the APT was just a test bed now for the next generation of train which the 91 was sort of the follow on from - but it never got the full kit (tilting) or the full speed it was designed for. Same old, same old isn't it - we get a train that can do x mph but it is hobbled at the beginning with promise of jam tomorrow but tomorrow never comes. Even the Pendolino hasn't been able to fully stretch it's legs, the signalling Railtrack promised (or the capacity now) never materialised. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 16 minutes ago, woodenhead said: Same old, same old isn't it - we get a train that can do x mph but it is hobbled at the beginning with promise of jam tomorrow but tomorrow never comes. Or in some cases, we buy something with no jam on the horizon, and then suddenly jam shows up with no warning and everything needs to change again. I've seen that on the infrastructure side more than rolling stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted July 24, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 24, 2019 Wow . Can't believe these are being withdrawn. I remember the first news in Rail Enthusiast , or was it Rail by then , probably 1984/85 about the new "Electra" train for the East Coast . I thought they were excellent and on trips from Glasgow Central in the 1990s always chose the ECML to London Kings Cross as opposed to WCML to Euston , just to get on the new trains. Loved them in InterCity livery, GNER Blue and latest Virgin/LNER schemes . I though NatEx and East Coast liveries were poor by comparison . Sorry to see them go, although I understand they still have life elsewhere. But really when trains you remember getting introduced get withdrawn its just another reminder of getting old! 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted July 24, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2019 When I was doing my MP12 driver training in 88 the first one turned up at Doncaster for training, I remember the instructors going on about each of its traction motors was as powerful as a 31! One Saturday in 89 I was route learning Doncaster and one came in on a Leeds train on an HST set in lieu of a powercar Ii got in the cab and the driver put me in the seat , absolutely awesome power especially with the rear power car powering up too. As has been said 90s are quicker off the mark but I think the 91s have it too end 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 No livery for me beats the GNER blue with red band - it seems to exude a lost glamour, it suited the HSTs too. The all white liveries now preferred by DFT are also to me better than the gawdy messes some TOCs tried - a 158 TFW in white looks spendid indeed. I've not had many trips behind a 91, dare I say it I've always preferred the WCML for smoothness - but maybe it's had more attention than the ECML over the years as it seems to be the premier route for passenger and freight. I wonder how a 91 and Mk4s will feel on the WCML, maybe I should try one. It is sad to see the beginning of the end of BR era mixed traffic loco haulage though even if they never ended up doing the blunt end overnight non passenger workings. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TravisM Posted July 24, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2019 From what I’ve learned from a LNER driver at Peterborough yesterday, those Class 91’s which are due heavier exams are handed back to the lessor in working condition and it’s them that decide it’s disposition. It will have been agreed prior between LNER and the lessor that once it’s been handed back and signed off, component recovery can start either at Bounds Green or Wabtec for the heavier items. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted July 24, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2019 At least one has worked a mail train ,and Christmas 89 I believe some were used on relief trains from York to king's cross. This was the last time I travelled in a second class compartment on BR as the train i was on was made up of mk1s most of which were SKs the 91 was blunt end first 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) The total cost of developing the 91, that cost being divided over a small fleet of 31 must have weighed heavily on the minds of GEC engineers. Did GEC hope (in vain) of future orders elsewhere such as WCML or Great Western? Edited July 24, 2019 by Pandora Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Pandora said: The total cost of developing the 91, that cost being divided over a small fleet of 31 must have weighed heavily on the minds of GEC engineers. Did GEC hope (in vain) of future orders elsewhere such as WCML or Great Western? BR were still in the process of procuring new stock the for the WCML and GEC were going to be in the running https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_250 https://blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk/the-locomotive-that-doesnt-exist/ Edited July 24, 2019 by woodenhead 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted July 24, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 hour ago, woodenhead said: BR were still in the process of procuring new stock the for the WCML and GEC were going to be in the running https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_250 https://blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk/the-locomotive-that-doesnt-exist/ Each to his (or her) own, but I think the "locomotive-that-never-was" looks quite smart. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Davexoc Posted July 24, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 24, 2019 NatEx on GNER base livery 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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