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Trev52A

Class 91 withdrawals and appreciation

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1 hour ago, bobthesod4479 said:

Thanks Trevor, apologies for not seeing that bit!

 

Don't worry bob - I often join a thread half way through!

 

Here's an enlargement from a  photo of the RHS of 91111 - the mouse is immediately to the left of the poppy under the nameplate.

 

1315596599_(IMG_2488a)17-7-19.jpg.8ca29d95bf79d9157f482f3e5bc19c80.jpg

 

Cheers

Trevor

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On 04/11/2019 at 00:10, adb968008 said:


91111..

 

Class 91: 91111 National Express Terence Cuneo's Mouse!

 

the mouse survived until National Express livery, it can be seen here, in the top right corner of the white band on the body side you need to zoom in close to see it, (not to be confused with the black mark behind it on the roof panel)

 

 

That is quite clearly a Vynal mouse - just look at its tail!

 

I suspect the mouse disappeared in GNER days - and what you have pictured is a photo of it that has been printed onto a piece of Vynal and stuck onto the loco on top of the National Express livery.

 

It is also quite likely that the same photo was used to add the mouse to the WW1 wrap - at least in that case it appears to be an integral part of the design and not simply slapped on top.

 

 

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4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

That is quite clearly a Vynal mouse - just look at its tail!

 

I suspect the mouse disappeared in GNER days - and what you have pictured is a photo of it that has been printed onto a piece of Vynal and stuck onto the loco on top of the National Express livery.

 

It is also quite likely that the same photo was used to add the mouse to the WW1 wrap - at least in that case it appears to be an integral part of the design and not simply slapped on top.

 

 

Agree, it’s nice the tradition wasn’t forgotten though.

 

with modern painting techniques, and the sympathy shown by staff to keep tradition it’s possible that in preservation when stripping the loco down, gently removing the layers may reveal a few mice.

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38 minutes ago, Claude_Dreyfus said:

IMG_3226.JPG.787ea578f69f014f76191af9f77ac6cf.JPG

91130 at Doncaster on the 1S17 14:10 Doncaster - Edinburgh service 

 

 

Northbound from platform 1, can't ever remember seeing that before !!

 

Cheers,

Phil.

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2 hours ago, Phil Mc said:

 

Northbound from platform 1, can't ever remember seeing that before !!

 

Cheers,

Phil.

 

Agreed, but presumably it's terminated there on a southbound working - if its today, maybe that's a peculiarity of the Sunday timetable, otherwise I'd guess most likely a result of disruption?

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20 hours ago, JDW said:

 

Agreed, but presumably it's terminated there on a southbound working - if its today, maybe that's a peculiarity of the Sunday timetable, otherwise I'd guess most likely a result of disruption?

Wasn't there bustitution between Peterborough and Donny for the Werrington dive-under at the weekend? Sure I heard something on the radio...

 

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Yes, there were buses to Peterborough that day. Being a first visit, I wasn't sure if the Doncaster to Edinburgh was a normal service, but that wasn't the only one to leave from platform 1...91118 did so later.

 

91130 and 91118 were the only 91s I saw at a very quiet Doncaster that day (lots of weather-related issues). There were Kings Cross services running, but the London trains were in the hands of HSTs and Azuma sets.

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On 10/11/2019 at 21:42, Phil Mc said:

 

Northbound from platform 1, can't ever remember seeing that before !!

 

Cheers,

Phil.

Northbound from platform 1 was a requirement for flexibility, and the relevant signalling provided, as part of the Doncaster resignalling in the mid 1980s. Admittedly at the time (and since), used mostly for the Goole/Scunthorpe services (until platform 0 came into use) rather than IC services to York etc, but not entirely unknown. 

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4 hours ago, iands said:

Northbound from platform 1 was a requirement for flexibility, and the relevant signalling provided, as part of the Doncaster resignalling in the mid 1980s. Admittedly at the time (and since), used mostly for the Goole/Scunthorpe services (until platform 0 came into use) rather than IC services to York etc, but not entirely unknown. 

 

The signal at the North end of platform 1 until about a year ago was a Position Light and was changed to a main aspect.

 

Mark Saunders

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I remember being on Doncaster Station early one morning, in the late 90's/early 2000's, to witness the departure of the Class 91 hauled 06:15 Doncaster to Glasgow Central from Platform 1. As an aside, the train in question, failed about a 1/4 of a mile outside the station and remained stuck there for the best part of an hour. I seem to remember the train was eventually cancelled and dragged back into Platform1.

 

Davey

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On 12/11/2019 at 12:05, Mark Saunders said:

 

The signal at the North end of platform 1 until about a year ago was a Position Light and was changed to a main aspect.

 

Mark Saunders

Iv been visiting Doncaster for 20+ years and the north end of P1 has always had a main aspect with route theatre box and position light signal at the end.

Before the sidings were removed to make way for platform 0, there used to be a position light mounted under the canopy controlling access into these sidings.

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only just seen this thread, and i was wondering lately that after the azumas had been introduced, the 91's didnt look like they were retiring but of course now i know otherwise.

 

much like how the current older people have fond memories of steam when they were younger, my younger memories of all the time spent down at the model club was played with a backing track of 91 roar out the back on the viaduct as it was waiting on the signal to go into Westgate, was it motor cooling fans or something like that but i cant recall hearing it much anymore. my dad & me would get the bus into town, get fish & chips from the usual place and walk up to Westgate station to watch the trains go by while we ate, then go down to the club. i remember the GNER and the cathedral names. but i also remember some other prototype driving end nose design very rounded like a mix between HST and voyager. a quick search comes up with the 89 which is very different and doesnt look like what i remember but i could very well be mixing it with something else

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2 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

i also remember some other prototype driving end nose design very rounded like a mix between HST and voyager. a quick search comes up with the 89 which is very different and doesnt look like what i remember but i could very well be mixing it with something else

Maybe an HST DVT?

The 89 & 91s were in service before the Mk4s. In order to make use of these, they fitted buffers & push-pull equipment to some HST power cars.

This allowed the 89 & 91s to work with HST sets

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On 12/11/2019 at 12:05, Mark Saunders said:

 

The signal at the North end of platform 1 until about a year ago was a Position Light and was changed to a main aspect.

 

Mark Saunders

 

There is nothing in the rule book preventing a passenger train being signalled using a position light signal in revenue service provided all points within the intended route are fitted with a Facing point lock (hint, virtually all electrical / hydraulic point machines are).

 

Indeed such moves can be very useful in 'get you out of trouble' situations.

 

The downsides are low speeds (Train MUST be able to stop within the distance they can physically see to be clear - unlike Main signal aspect, position sight signals do not guarantee the line ahead to be clear of trains) and poor viability due to position light signals usually being mounted on the ground. As such passenger trains are not timetabled / pathed using position light signals - and if regular moves are planned then the installation of a full main aspect signal will be required.

Edited by phil-b259
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A passenger train can only start on a position light with signalmans authority 

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Yes, northbound from Platform 1 for mainline trains is unusual, as it's only really been possible for trains starting or turning back from Doncaster, there's no route into the platform from the south off the Down lines.

 

About a couple of year ago, in association with the alterations to the carriage sidings (just off the south end of the platform), and the new IEP depot, bi-directional signaling was provided on the Up Slow, but only for trains off the Lincoln line, it's still not accessible from the Down Mainline.

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On 17/11/2019 at 02:29, Ken.W said:

Yes, northbound from Platform 1 for mainline trains is unusual, as it's only really been possible for trains starting or turning back from Doncaster, there's no route into the platform from the south off the Down lines.

 

About a couple of year ago, in association with the alterations to the carriage sidings (just off the south end of the platform), and the new IEP depot, bi-directional signaling was provided on the Up Slow, but only for trains off the Lincoln line, it's still not accessible from the Down Mainline.


azumas off Doncaster IEP seem to use it northbound, Ive seen 2 on the same day, ive got a video somewhere of a TPE doing it.

Edited by adb968008

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Class 91s at Doncaster, 20/11/19

 

IMG_20191123_224356.jpg.fab24cba836a26286a6376a9928386ba.jpg

91121

 

IMG_20191123_224419.jpg.db5dd14d08713803b9231cb2e93ed7ce.jpg

91105

 

IMG_20191123_224502.jpg.b4d9431ef6d9156c2e33c361ca603f4b.jpg

IMG_20191123_224532.jpg.2e0459a5c9c7e572e06db95bb6775459.jpg

What remains of 91108

 

IMG_20191123_224555.jpg.0a9fcb15fe4805035156677de0b0ae91.jpg

91114 Durham Cathedral

 

IMG_20191123_224629.jpg.bf9cae8405ecd507f57a779dccc44878.jpg

IMG_20191123_224838.jpg.91831a84cf3e21fa00f6b50cad62fe37.jpg

91132

 

IMG_20191123_224704.jpg.38c480dff7418e1253f0ca9788fd8269.jpg

91106

 

IMG_20191123_224734.jpg.943d8bd7556f96c42a33029b919ccf28.jpg

IMG_20191123_224759.jpg.89f757d7bad2a51b110f1bd6c0bd51ab.jpg

91115 Blaydon Races

 

IMG_20191123_224909.jpg.559299203a52479968c135f5d775c9df.jpg

91125

 

IMG_20191123_224953.jpg.7fd9e59495182be38a7ce4be79e4c5a3.jpg

IMG_20191123_225012.jpg.8f58100fe85443afcfe382222a63c754.jpg

91131

 

IMG_20191123_225102.jpg.0a7a97dbe2bef07401f5b014790d4979.jpg

91109 Sir Bobby Robson

 

Jack

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1138103092_(352a)4315591004Newcastle16-8-97(TErmel).jpg.30fb4a7f2c7ecca99bd66a11881bb878.jpg

GNER's 91004 at Newcastle on 16th August 1997, with Virgin XC's 43155 on the left.

 

Trevor

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On 13/11/2019 at 18:11, russ p said:

A passenger train can only start on a position light with signalmans authority 

Verbal authority?    Also not sure where this is to be found in the Rule Book,  is it found in the Sectional Appendix as an instruction applicable to only a specific signal or station?

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9 hours ago, Pandora said:

Verbal authority?    Also not sure where this is to be found in the Rule Book,  is it found in the Sectional Appendix as an instruction applicable to only a specific signal or station?

 

Not sure where it is but has been the case in the 36 years I've been on the railway 

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On 29/11/2019 at 02:35, Pandora said:

Verbal authority?    Also not sure where this is to be found in the Rule Book,  is it found in the Sectional Appendix as an instruction applicable to only a specific signal or station?

 

On 29/11/2019 at 12:27, russ p said:

 

Not sure where it is but has been the case in the 36 years I've been on the railway 

 

In some respects this is quite logical - after all a position light normally means a shunt move so advising a driver that the signaller is actually setting the route for a proper 'mainline' route seems sensible.

 

It should also be noted that if the move was a timetabled one - a proper running signal would have to be provided - in my experience the 'use a position light for a passenger departure' is reserved for when the infrastructure has developed a problem and some 'out the box' thinking is required to keep trains moving / recover the situation.

 

However if things have gone belly up, its quite probable there will be some driver signaller discussion anyway!

 

That said, I have never seen a rule book entry (as opposed to TOC standards, local signal box instructions or 'best practice' guides for example) which says a conversation MUST take place before a passenger train departs using a position light signal - what it does say is that all points in the route must be fitted with Facing Point locks or secured with clips & padlocks if not.

 

 

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