Rice's Deep Navigation Colliery?

[Ralf]

Hi all, 

 

Have been thinking and sketching and sketching and thinking for a while now about colliery layouts and never really being happy with anything I've either found prototypically or dreamt up / tweaked or fiddled with then I was re-reading Ian Rice's errrr Book (I forget which one) whose style I do find very appealing and there was his take on a small Colliery layout... I've broadly re-created it in Templot using for OO-SF with 1:6 GWR old-type 9ft heel switches and it fits broadly into a space of 2 ½ x 6ft, planned train lengths are loco + 10 x 16 ton Minerals and a Brake Van (to be left in exchange siding. 

 

Has anyone got any wise words they'd like to share with me regarding the plan below, any glaring prototypical problems - I know Rice warns of modelling the model (so doubt he has) but you never know... Seems that in a larger space than I'd planned I can have lots and lots of operating potential and somewhere to play with my ever growing fleet of industrials. Planning on modelling it in South Wales around 1980... 

 

A recent trip to big pit (during which I was astonished by it's smallness) will certainly be a contributing factor to the yet unexplored NG elements. 

 

Thanks 

Ralf

 

 

 

[Ruston]

Without the buildings being marked on there it's difficult to imagine exactly what's going on there but I'm assuming that you're only modelling the upcast (manriding and materials) shaft and that the downcast (coal-winding) shaft is off-scene and adjacent to the washery? Your note says that Rice suggests a narrow gauge line crossing the standard gauge on a trestle - where would that go to and what is it for?

[Michael Edge]

Looks like a lot of reversals would be necessary and it's not clear where empties/fulls would be parked. There are usually sidings for both waiting to be collected. The vast majority of screens/washeries were run through, at least by the wagons, and often by gravity.

[Miss Prism]

The key feature of Rice's DNC, and the rationale behind the reversals, is that the front of the layout is on high ground, and the running line at the rear is much lower (sort of 'down the valley'), with some fierce gradients incorporated into the reversals. Challenging, both visually and constructionally.

 

[Ralf]

Thanks all, some early responses and an upgraded plan below to try and clarify things... 

 

 

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

Without the buildings being marked on there it's difficult to imagine exactly what's going on there but I'm assuming that you're only modelling the upcast (manriding and materials) shaft and that the downcast (coal-winding) shaft is off-scene and adjacent to the washery? 

 

Yes I think so, not massively familiar with the prototype but think I agree he says reaching for "Modelling aspects of the coal industry Vol 1& 2"... 

 

 

42 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

it's not clear where empties/fulls would be parked. There are usually sidings for both waiting to be collected.

 

The vast majority of screens/washeries were run through, at least by the wagons, and often by gravity.

 

Ah, no that's a very good point (parking loads and empties), loads would be simply infront of the washery as shown on the plan. Empties vanish off scene down the headhunt to re-appear as loaded wagons through the washery. 

 

Apologies it wasn't obvious (except to me) the washery IS run through with wagons appearing from the RH side as presented - see much improved / clarified plan below. 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Challenging, both visually and constructionally.

 

Ah, now there's a challenge or a reason to attempt something else for my first serious venture into actually modelling! 

 

Many thanks 

Ralf

 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Ralf

[Ruston]

Are the two shafts on the same level? Or is the line still climbing up to the downcast/screens/washery?

[Compound2632]

Which valley? In other words, London & North Western, Midland, Great Western, Taff Vale, Rhymney...?

 

The name seems to allude to Treharris:

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Compound2632

[Gordon A]

I believe the washery was the other side of the main line, now the base for the Pontypool & Blaenavon Railway.

 

The single exchange siding is not practical. Not enough space to store fulls and empties,

 

If you are basing your model on Big Pitt which is on higher ground than the through line then colliery loco should always be on the down / lower end of any train going to or from the colliery to prevent runaways.

 

Gordon A

[Michael Edge]

That's better, I can see how you would work the empties and screens now but I still can't see where or how the fulls would be shunted for pickup by BR locos. As it stands you only have one short exchange road and you would need two colliery locos to shunt wagons from the screens into it.

You don't necessarily have to have two shafts, this is a valley pit, one could be a drift - this is the excuse I used for the pit on Cameron with no room for a second winder.

[Ruston]

10 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

That's better, I can see how you would work the empties and screens now but I still can't see where or how the fulls would be shunted for pickup by BR locos. As it stands you only have one short exchange road and you would need two colliery locos to shunt wagons from the screens into it.

You don't necessarily have to have two shafts, this is a valley pit, one could be a drift - this is the excuse I used for the pit on Cameron with no room for a second winder.

The way I am seeing it, this is the end of the line up the valley and the top RH roads are the exchange sidings and that marked 'exchange siding' is nothing but a headshunt gaining height to the colliery. In this case I would do away with the signalbox. I don't think it's necessary and the points to the BR line could be operated by a ground frame with an Annetts key attached to the single-line staff.

 

How I would see it working is that the BR loco would stop and get permission to enter from the NCB man in charge and the GF would be unlocked by the BR guard or shunter. The train would enter, leave its empties, collect fulls and leave. It would stop after clearing the point for the GF to be locked and then the staff and key would go with it in the driver's cab. The points are now set and locked so the NCB engine can go in and out of the exchange sidings as needed but cannot get on to the BR line.

 

 If it isn't the end of the line, the top RH tracks aren't the exchange sidings, and the main line is through-running to somewhere else then what Mike says is right and one 'exchange' siding isn't enough.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Ruston

[br2975]

I have the Iain Rice book from which this design eminates, I believe it's called 'Model Railway Layout Design in Small Places' or something similar.

.

To a certain degree, I think it is something akin to a 'flight of fancy' showing little in common with prototype practice.

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The following is a generalisation, and not gospel, due to the vast number of pits that existed across the South Wales coalfield.

Wherever possible, It was common practice in South Wales for pits to be located in the valley bottom, where the 'datum' would be the river bed, slightly above which would be the railway .

The pithead buildings would be at a higher level again than the railway, often built on strong stone revettments.

This allowed the drams leaving the shaft to be run out and emptied into the screens (to sort the rock/stone from the coal and grade the latter by size), and any washery.

The washed and  graded coal is then dropped into railway wagons below, usually several lines, each for differing grades of coal, and at least one for waste .

The most effective method of loading railway wagons was for the pit loco to push empty wagons, over a weighbridge ( never accept the tare weight on the wagon )  then alongside the screens/washery to an area at the "back of the screens", where the storage sidings would normally be at a slightly higher level.

The wagons are then allowed to run by gravity under the screens, where they would be stopped to allow them to be filled, and then, usually ( but not always ) to run by gravity from the screens to departure roads ( at a slightly lower level again ) - and at some point, over a second weighbridge to weigh the loaded wagons, before departure.

In a lot of pits, the loading shutes in the screens were to low to allow locos to work beneath them.

Every pit 'should' have two sets shafts, and therefore two sets of headgear.

One shaft is known as the 'downcast' - the other being the 'upcast' . This is because fresh air is drawn ( by large fans ) into the workings via the 'downcast' shaft, and after circulating around the various workings the air is expelled via the 'upcast' ( actually through evasee's alongside or near the upcast ). The 'upcast' headgear can usually be identified by being encased in corrugated sheeting to make it as airtight as possible.

The need for two shafts are for safety purposes and to evacuate the men if one shaft is out of action.

Some mines had a "drift" giving additional access, so only had one set of headgear ( e.g. Big Pit )

.

In order for Iain Rice's plan to work effectively, there needs to be (in theory anyway) as many sidings for empties as there are seperate sidings for loaded wagons, with the screens/washery sort of in between.

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In Rice's plan, we would need to assume the existence of a shaft and headgear alongside the washery/screens, from which loaded drams brought up the shaft would then be emptied washed and graded etc before loading.

If the coal is brought up through the left hand shaft, then there needs to be a means of getting that coal to the washery/screens, either by running narrow gauge drams on a creeper circuit, or if more modern, using a conveyor.

.

In South Wales 'dram' was probably the most common term for a narrow gauge mine tub or mine car, although 'tram' was also used.

When several 'drams' were coupled together, they were known as a 'journey'

 

All said and done, I like the principal behind the Rice concept.

Edited July 25, 2019 by br2975

[Respite]

There are three things I would alter on this plan.

 

1. The single road exchange siding is the achillies heel of the plan, and would become quite frustrating I feel.  

 I would use it merely as a reversal point, and to stop errant NCB locos running out onto the BR branch. I would use the RHS off scene fiddle yard as your exchange sidings and draw out empties into the reversal point/headshunt before a full regulator, sanders on charge up the bank and past the washery to the top yard empty wagons sidings.

 

2. NCB loco sheds were often some distance from the main colliery buildings. Think of the smoke from lighting up the loco wafting into the screens!  I would use the loco shed line as a fourth loading road for the screens, most collieries  had at least four roads for loading wagons, There are exceptions I know of, especially in narrow South Wales valleys.

 

3. The pit head area buildings need reversing. The siding you show running into the winding house is not accurate, but if it was serving the boiler house, exactly right. The boiler house shunt was often a nightmare, with a stiff gradient onto a gantry (Cronton Colliery) or a stiff gradient with one wagon of boiler fuel, which was fly shunted around the pit head buildings as the clearance was too tight for the loco! As at William Colliery Whitehaven.  You would use wooden bodied NCB internal wagons for this, often the NE type wooden hopper wagons as made by Slaters.

 

Narrow gauge tramways were often used in South Wales for sending spoil to the tips,  you could therefore have the tramway going from the screens across towards the backscene although your supplies line from the buildings and pit prop yard offers a lot of interesting cargoes and is also very typical of a colliery.

 

I realise I haven't said where to relocate the loco shed, and that is the problem. The obvious area is where the pit head is but visually the winding gear would be far more impressive. To add to the problem you really need at least one siding down the side of the shed with demic wagons and derelict locos in for that typical colliery look.

 

Good luck with your project, I have looked at Mr Rice's plan many times myself.

[Michael Edge]

With those as exchange sidings the plan is workable, I would agree with "Respite" that the loco shed wouldn't be near the screens.

[Regularity]

It’s an Iain Rice plan. At best, it will have a degree of “artistic interpretation”, at worst it will be composed of equal admixtures of implausibility and wild optimism.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, Regularity said:

It’s an Iain Rice plan. At best, it will have a degree of “artistic interpretation”, at worst it will be composed of equal admixtures of implausibility and wild optimism.

 

I find that a fairly extraordinary comment. Iain Rice's designs have been used by many modellers with great success.

 

There are other well-known creators of layout plans who would indeed deserve your remark but I don't think that IR is one of them.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 24/07/2019 at 17:17, Ralf said:

Hi all, 

 

Have been thinking and sketching and sketching and thinking for a while now about colliery layouts and never really being happy with anything I've either found prototypically or dreamt up / tweaked or fiddled with then I was re-reading Ian Rice's errrr Book (I forget which one) whose style I do find very appealing and there was his take on a small Colliery layout... I've broadly re-created it in Templot using for OO-SF with 1:6 GWR old-type 9ft heel switches and it fits broadly into a space of 2 ½ x 6ft, planned train lengths are loco + 10 x 16 ton Minerals and a Brake Van (to be left in exchange siding. 

 

Has anyone got any wise words they'd like to share with me regarding the plan below, any glaring prototypical problems - I know Rice warns of modelling the model (so doubt he has) but you never know... Seems that in a larger space than I'd planned I can have lots and lots of operating potential and somewhere to play with my ever growing fleet of industrials. Planning on modelling it in South Wales around 1980... 

 

A recent trip to big pit (during which I was astonished by it's smallness) will certainly be a contributing factor to the yet unexplored NG elements. 

 

Thanks 

Ralf

 

 

 

 

You may be able to get this into a 6' length but I think it is going to look rather cramped at anything below 8' length.

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I find that a fairly extraordinary comment. Iain Rice's designs have been used by many modellers with great success.

 

There are other well-known creators of layout plans who would indeed deserve your remark but I don't think that IR is one of them.

That’s your opinion, and that’s fine. 

Just not mine.

[Down_Under]

For me there are 3 parts to colliery operation:

 

- colliery screens/washing plant and their operations

- access between the colliery and exchange sidings (often steeply graded) and/or other areas of the colliery.

- exchange sidings with BR

 

the problem is that these were often large complexes and rarely occurred together, separated by several miles, making it a challenge to model. The question I'd ask myself if which bit do you want to model? There are a couple of good examples that have been posted in other threads e.g. Bersham Colliery 

 

The Astley Green series on YouTube ( by Gandy Dancer) is also a fantastic watch on colliery operations. There will be big and small examples you can pick and choose bits from to build it into the space that you have. 

 

The other thing to think about is train length as this will control the length of certain sections of the track/layout 

 

J

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tomparryharry]

Don't let Big Pit fool you. It was considerably larger than you think... The washery on the 'down' side had 4 sidings with each about 40 wagons, and that was the 'full' side. The empty, or up side, was the same. The main line runs down the cutting under the rail-over-rail bridge, which was double track. The P&BR station (Furnace Sidings)  didn't exist back then, and was a headshunt for the washery, with 2 lines with another capacity for 40-50 wagon rakes. At the (now) level crossing, there is another headshunt on the up side which feeds back to  the furnaces via a 1/2 mile siding which takes you to the furnace tops. The traffic on this side was delivery of Iron ore, and limestone, used as a flux in the steelmaking process.  The landscaping in Blaenavon bears absolutely no resemblance to what went on before: There are miles of adits, tuyeres and unknown buried archaeology over there. We recently discovered a 10" main water pipe (now defunct) which is about 50 yards away from the original 10" main I worked on about 1990. Everybody thought 'I' had knowledge of it, but it was news to me as well....

 

In short, the museum considerably reduced the area of the place, because it's beyond the average person to comprehend the enormity of how heavy industry works. The washery building alone covered approximately 7 acres, with the exchange sidings a further 4 acres. Just before my time, the 'development' people demolished a 3-road locomotive shed , capable of supporting 9 x 16" Andrew Barclay  locomotives.

 

If you do visit big Pit, have a ride on the train. When travelling 'up', you will pass under a bridge; that's the start of the original pit. The ironworks were on your left. You will cross 4 overbridges, which led down to the lower ironworks sites. Then, with Big Pit on your left, look up the valley. The entire horizon is all Big Pit 'take' , with Kays & Kears & Garn Slopes collieries; now closed, demolished & landscaped over.  Even the Whistle Inn, at the top of the line, is built over a headshaft. Sorry, make that 3...

 

Happy modelling,

Ian.

[Ralf]

Ok, thanks for all the responses folks, so I've misplaced my memory stick to transfer files from my windows laptop (Templot only) to my Mac, never mind I've bodged the plan around badly in a word processor to try and modify things more in line with the suggestions / comments above. 

 

I've taken the idea Ruston proposed about this being the end of the BR line and the associated exchange sidings, the loco shed has swapped sides and will be squashed in with the pit prop yard, the washery enlarged to use 4 roads. 

 

As I know see things it seems to work and wagons can be weighed using a single weigh bridge on arrival into the washery yard and again on their return to the BR exchange sidings. 

 

How's it looking? I know there's a strange kink on the arrival to the BR Sidings that's just poor editing, the next proper Templot version will not have that 'feature'.

 

Many thanks

Ralf

 

[Gordon A]

Try shunting your plan in your mind or with pieces of paper / card.

When the empties arrive in the exchange sidings I assume the train engine will be released by a colliery engine picking the empty wagons off in small groups propelling them up to the empties sidings / traverser.

The train engine will then move off the siding and drop onto a train of loaded wagons.

How are you going to deal with guards van, removing it off the back of the empty train and putting it on the back of the loaded train?

Could you add an extra short siding in front of the two exchange sidings long enough for a couple of guards vans?

 

The empties pass under the washery becoming loaded. Will this be done by a loco or gravity?

The loaded wagons are then worked down to one of the exchange sidings.

 

You will need a trap point on the BR side of the boundary gate?

The loco shed looks a bit small. I would think you will be looking at a minimum roster of three to four locos for the colliery.

 

Gordon A

[Fat Controller]

There were occasions when the shafts and ancillary buildings were some distance from washery and railway. We used to live in Clara Vale, on the banks of the Tyne. The shafts were several hundred yards from the screens, the latter being on the river bank, on the Up side of the Newcastle and Carlisle. I believe an aerial ropeway was used to transfer the 'run of  the mine' coal to the washery and screens. Similar ropeways were used near Rheola, in the Neath Valley.

One thing to note is that the explosives magazine would be as far away from the pithead as possible; the shot-firers would draw off only what they would need for their shift.

[Michael Edge]

I think you would need a minimum of three sidings for the exchange, remember one would usually be occupied by fulls and you have to get the brake van off before shunting anything into the pit.

[tomparryharry]

If you are an 'end of line' situation, stock would be propelled into the colliery/quarry on a shunt movement. I can think of 2 Welsh examples used until recent times. The first is Llanharan iron ore mine, near Llantrisant, and Creigau Quarry, near Cardiff. Both concerns were drawn in, and propelled return. Bryn colliery, at Llantwit Fardre, is a model I intend to re-create some day. Up the hill is a level adit, with a gravity line feed down the hill. Here, we pass the old A473 Pontypridd-Llantrisant road by way of an aerial  bridge & ropeway to the pit head. Here, we have two heads, and an exchange siding directly opposite the Taff Vale station at Llantwit Fardre. Amazingly, the entire place was extant until the early 1970's, apart from the pit heads being capped.  Full & empty stock would be handled by a pilot working into & out of Bryn colliery,and over to the 'machine siding'. so called because it had a weighing machine. The entire site is built up from colliery waste, and extended to some 4 acres.    

[doilum]

53 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

If you are an 'end of line' situation, stock would be propelled into the colliery/quarry on a shunt movement. I can think of 2 Welsh examples used until recent times. The first is Llanharan iron ore mine, near Llantrisant, and Creigau Quarry, near Cardiff. Both concerns were drawn in, and propelled return. Bryn colliery, at Llantwit Fardre, is a model I intend to re-create some day. Up the hill is a level adit, with a gravity line feed down the hill. Here, we pass the old A473 Pontypridd-Llantrisant road by way of an aerial  bridge & ropeway to the pit head. Here, we have two heads, and an exchange siding directly opposite the Taff Vale station at Llantwit Fardre. Amazingly, the entire place was extant until the early 1970's, apart from the pit heads being capped.  Full & empty stock would be handled by a pilot working into & out of Bryn colliery,and over to the 'machine siding'. so called because it had a weighing machine. The entire site is built up from colliery waste, and extended to some 4 acres.    

Most of our local pits covered at least a quarter of a square mile. A more compact example would be Clayton West about ten miles south of Wakefield and now home to the Kirklees light railway. The colliery was featured in one of the modelling magazines as a manageable prototype. 

If you fancy some pre grouping modelling, it is much easier to find examples of small collieries working on a two or three road screen, and where gradients restricted trains to a dozen wagons.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Ruston
Removal of irrelevant links to someone's build of an A4 pacific