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Ruston

Ruston's Victorian Industrial locomotive scratchbuilds

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1 hour ago, Ruston said:

All the wheels shown are the proper wheels and all are flanged. They are Alan Gibson 14mm Manning Wardle wheels as these are the nearest I could get in appearance to the RS wheels. The bogie uses 8mm wheels from a Roy C. Link O-14 skip chassis with the centres opened to enable them to fit onto a standard OO wagon axle for pinpoint bearings.

 

Just that I read somewhere that the bogie was on a fixed pivot and the leading drivers were flangeless. Altered in at least one instance very late in life at the insistence of a BR inspector, as it ran over BR tracks. They then made the leading driving wheels flanged and gave the bogie some lateral movement. The loco became very unstable and was quickly scrapped. I think it was one at a Derbyshire colliery, but can't quite remember which - maybe Shipley? It had been happily used over main line tracks for some considerable time before the alteration was insisted upon.

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13 hours ago, Armchair Modeller said:

 

Just that I read somewhere that the bogie was on a fixed pivot and the leading drivers were flangeless. Altered in at least one instance very late in life at the insistence of a BR inspector, as it ran over BR tracks. They then made the leading driving wheels flanged and gave the bogie some lateral movement. The loco became very unstable and was quickly scrapped. I think it was one at a Derbyshire colliery, but can't quite remember which - maybe Shipley? It had been happily used over main line tracks for some considerable time before the alteration was insisted upon.

I don't know about Shipley colliery having one of these Robert Stephenson 4-4-0STs but I've read that they did have two ex-North London Railway 4-4-0Ts (presumably designed by Adams and built by Beyer Peacock?) . Are you sure you're not getting confused with these? The Stephenson 4-4-0STs that I have photos of clearly have flanges on all wheels.

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4 hours ago, Ruston said:

I don't know about Shipley colliery having one of these Robert Stephenson 4-4-0STs but I've read that they did have two ex-North London Railway 4-4-0Ts (presumably designed by Adams and built by Beyer Peacock?) . Are you sure you're not getting confused with these? The Stephenson 4-4-0STs that I have photos of clearly have flanges on all wheels.

No, definitely not getting confused. Look at the drawing in your first post. The fact that the leading driving wheels are so far back also lends weight to my story. With lateral movement on the bogie, it would probably be very unstable.

Edited by Armchair Modeller

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4 hours ago, Barclay said:

Those springs look really nice - where did you get those from?

I think they were from Branchlines.

 

2 hours ago, Armchair Modeller said:

No, definitely not getting confused. Look at the drawing in your first post. The fact that the leading driving wheels are so far back also lends weight to my story. With lateral movement on the bogie, it would probably be very unstable.

I'd be interested to know where you found this information and to learn more about it.

 

I wasn't happy with the bogie. I had made it to fit standard wagon axles but as the model is to run on OO it didn't look right with the frame plates of the bogie being so wide when compared with the width/gauge of the driving wheels. It would stand out all the more when the axleboxes and springs are added to the bogie, so I have slimmed it down by a couple of millimetres and have also had to narrow the axles to fit.

 

The holes opened in the wheels to take 2mm axles were also a cause for concern and the wheels were rather wobbly on the axles. I've fixed that by popping the steel tyres off of the plastic centres of the RCL skip wheels and have turned some brass wheels to replace the centres. Into these I have fitted the insulating nylon sleeves from the original OO wagon wheels.

 

Stephenson4-4-04-4.jpg.12a1cbe2f598a9925dd44cea1b6973be.jpg

The pickups for the drivers have been added and it has run under its own power. Despite the very short wheelbase it negotiates points well enough but it doesn't cope well with some of the more badly laid parts of my layout and will need pickups adding to the bogie. I've also found that there's a tight spot, which seems to be in one of the rods, so they'll be coming off and the crank pin holes will be opened out slightly.

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1 minute ago, Ruston said:

I'd be interested to know where you found this information and to learn more about it.

Regrettably I can't remember exactly where I saw it, but do have a clear recollection of having read it. Sorry!

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I've turned the chimney, which was an easy job due to there being a flat top to fit it to with no need to flare the bottom of it. I've swapped my self-made smokebox door for an RT Models casting and have made a pair of springs, for the bogie, from styrene strip.

Stephenson4-4-04-5.jpg.49e0c0b2f6724c62477858510471b435.jpg

The tank and dome are only resting in place. I've also turned the tank filler and soldered on a hinge, made from brass shim and 0.45mm wire. The brake standard is a turned brass item that I was given by a fellow forum member.

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I'm having problems in getting this thing to run properly. It's fine mechanically but it's getting traction that is the problem. It needs to be able to haul 6 wagons up a 1 in 18 gradient, which is no problem for my 0-4-0STs but some of the weight here is wasted on the bogie. I've tried to put most of the weight as far back as I can get it but it's no good.

 

Since I had the bogie off to fit pickups it now derails on a set of points that it previously ran through without a problem. I seem to have inadvertently lessened the compression on the spring on which the weight bears on the bogie.

 

It's a difficult balance. If the bogie spring isn't taking enough weight it derails but if it takes too much then the leading drivers don't have enough weight and the thing can't even pull itself up the bank. It is becoming very frustrating. I'm going to put more weight inside and fill the remaining space in the tank, even that which is right up to the front.

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You have  set yourself an interesting challenge!

 

You haven't made the cab yet. Looking at the first photo in the first entry of this thread there appears to be coal stacked inside the cab side sheet. Were there bunkers on both sides? If you constructed these and packed them with lead they would add a fair bit of weight where you need it right behind the rear coupled wheels - even if there was only one bunker.  It may help with the adhesion.

 

You are producing a fine model.

 

Ian.    

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44 minutes ago, Ruston said:

I'm having problems in getting this thing to run properly. It's fine mechanically but it's getting traction that is the problem. It needs to be able to haul 6 wagons up a 1 in 18 gradient, which is no problem for my 0-4-0STs but some of the weight here is wasted on the bogie. I've tried to put most of the weight as far back as I can get it but it's no good.

 

Since I had the bogie off to fit pickups it now derails on a set of points that it previously ran through without a problem. I seem to have inadvertently lessened the compression on the spring on which the weight bears on the bogie.

 

It's a difficult balance. If the bogie spring isn't taking enough weight it derails but if it takes too much then the leading drivers don't have enough weight and the thing can't even pull itself up the bank. It is becoming very frustrating. I'm going to put more weight inside and fill the remaining space in the tank, even that which is right up to the front.

 

It was good to meet you the other day at Keightley. I had a similar problem with a North London railway 4-4-0T that needed to pull 10 brass kit built 4 wheel carriages with less than free running inside bearings. In the end, I made a the bogie more rigid, by adding a swinging arm that came up to a rubbing plate just behind the front bufferbeam. The leading drivers were given a tiny amount of up and down play, controlled by a simple spring. So any weight behind the front buffer beam was putting at least some traction onto the rear driving wheels.

 

It made a big difference and the loco went from useless to a stage where it can now manage the train, just! It also does away with any tendency for the loco to be front end heavy. The weight is carried on the leading bogie arm and on the rear driving wheels and any weight added anywhere adds to the traction.

 

If you run out of ideas, it might be worth a try.

 

Regards

 

Tony

 

 

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Thanks, chaps. I have put a stiffer spring in to support the bogie and have played around with setting the ride height on the bogie. It seems to have cured the derailing and the haulage capability has increased by adding 10g of lead under the footplate and between the frames where the lower part of the firebox would be. There is no drawbar hook on it yet, so the testing has been done by propelling the wagons and it can now take 5 wagons up the bank, albeit with a lot of slipping.

 

It now weighs 181g and I'm running out of space in which to add weight. I won't be fitting a full cab but, as Ian said, I will fill the bunkers (I don't know if there should be one or two but in the absence of evidence either way then who's to say that I'm wrong?) with lead and once the cab steps are on I can hide small weights behind them. There are sandboxes and a toolbox to add and by the time it's done I reckon I can get it up to 200g.

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Can you get a fat driver and equally fat fireman in cast Whitemetal?   I know that helps my Edwardian 4-4-0s pull a decent train.

 

Ian.

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I'm going to buy some more Stadden Victorian/Edwardian loco crew figures, which are pewter, so at least they will add more weight than plastic crew but I'm not sure that they'd make much difference, Ian.

 

I've made and fitted the steps and the side sheets and capping around the footplate. The capping is made from nickel silver so that it can be left unpainted and look like polished metal.

Stephenson4-4-04-6.jpg.2ce83eb74f0be8e84f8ebd73b4c75523.jpg

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I've come late to your party Mr Ruston, sir, but I think Armchair Modeller may be right regarding the flangeless front drivers as they're clearly shown as such on the drawing right in post one. Is it possible that the photos are of the loco but modified later with flanged wheels all round? I can't see too easily the detail on this laptop.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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15 hours ago, Ruston said:

I'm going to buy some more Stadden Victorian/Edwardian loco crew figures, which are pewter, so at least they will add more weight than plastic crew but I'm not sure that they'd make much difference, Ian.

 

I've made and fitted the steps and the side sheets and capping around the footplate. The capping is made from nickel silver so that it can be left unpainted and look like polished metal.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_10/Stephenson4-4-04-6.jpg.2ce83eb74f0be8e84f8ebd73b4c75523.jpg

 

 

Every little helps, perhaps add a piece bag made from a sliver of lead too!

Many a mickle makes a muckle!

 

Ian.

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15 hours ago, Philou said:

I've come late to your party Mr Ruston, sir, but I think Armchair Modeller may be right regarding the flangeless front drivers as they're clearly shown as such on the drawing right in post one. Is it possible that the photos are of the loco but modified later with flanged wheels all round? I can't see too easily the detail on this laptop.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

I never noticed the lack of flanges on the drawing! It's quite possible that it was built without flanges on the leading driving wheels but on the large photo of Emlyn No.2 they are definitely present. I have only just discovered that the two photos in my first post do indeed show the same engine and most probably at the same location. That engine is Robert Stephenson w/n 1959, built in 1870. With it being so old it probably looked exactly as drawn, with 2 wooden brake blocks, injectors on the cab side sheets and the plain chimney. In the photos a hole can be seen in the cab side sheet that would correspond with the injector having been there and as the cab itself seems a bit of a lash-up, that too isn't all original. It was a very long-lived engine and ended up working under the ownership of the NCB, at Peckfield Colliery, where it was eventually scrapped.

 

I took the drawing from the Oakwood Press book of drawings of Boulton's Siding, as edited by Mike Sharman. This and others were added in, even though they had no connection with Boulton but, like all of the drawings, were originally published in The Locomotive Magazine. Mike Sharman has this down as having come from The Locomotive Magazine, 1936. If only I could know which issue and get hold of that I may be able to find out more. Does anyone here know which issue contained this drawing?

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The smokebox and firebox have been fattened by adding plasticard and the dome has been glued in place. This came as an alternative part in a kit for a Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T.

Stephenson4-4-0-005.jpg.6c110a4af19ea81345d55369b65efe21.jpg

I have also made the boiler backhead from plasticard as this will be easier to drill when it comes to adding detail.  The weatherboard is made from 18 thou. nickel silver sheet with a bead of 0.5mm brass wire soldered on. The spectacles are brass bar that has been bored and turned to fit in the holes in the weatherboard. It now weighs 205g.

Stephenson4-4-0-006.jpg.28aaa373b6187fc0cd72a5fb5c6c31a1.jpg

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Nice job by the way!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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I am still trying to find the reference to the front driving wheels being flangeless. Must have read it in a book, as otherwise I would have copied it straight onto my PC. However, the photo of the 0-6-0 version I showed earlier almost certainly has flangeless centre wheels

 

aLBT-02.jpg.a31d1584846c295761bd76a01846583d.jpg

 

Early Stephenson long-boilered main line locos were like this so the principle is certainly not odd or impractical

 

azz150anni-2-8.jpg.65f5933b5eba6b78ce79df86cc5b81b9.jpg

 

azz150anni-2-6.jpg.b2d18f617cbacf05ee6ed3e1882cf7e5.jpg

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Thanks, AM but I'm sticking with flanges on both sets of driving wheels as I think it will risk derailments on the model without them. I also think that models with flangeless wheels look odd because the flanges are always way too deep and overscale, so removing them only goes to show how overscale those that remain are. I suppose it wouldn't show up as much in P4 but this isn't P4.

 

The 0-6-0ST has got me thinking that it wouldn't take much alteration to the frame pattern to build that. The only new patterns would be for the cab and rods.

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0-6-0 version as well? Oh, yes, that would be a mighty fine thing.

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4 hours ago, Ruston said:

Thanks, AM but I'm sticking with flanges on both sets of driving wheels as I think it will risk derailments on the model without them. I also think that models with flangeless wheels look odd because the flanges are always way too deep and overscale, so removing them only goes to show how overscale those that remain are. I suppose it wouldn't show up as much in P4 but this isn't P4.

 

The 0-6-0ST has got me thinking that it wouldn't take much alteration to the frame pattern to build that. The only new patterns would be for the cab and rods.

Its your model, so your choice. Please don't think I am complaining in any way. ;)

Edited by Armchair Modeller

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The locos are so similar that I wonder if the 0-6-0 and the 4-4-0 were rebuilds rather than different types. Many a loco got a new wheel arrangement on rebuilding. If it was built as an 0-6-0 and rebuilt as a 4-4-0 it might help explain the unbalanced appearance as if the bogie was shoved under the front end without a lot of design work. It might also explain why the leading drivers were initially flangeless but were changed later.

 

I have no knowledge of such things and I am just guessing!

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Just a few small jobs done this time. I have made and fitted the sandboxes and have installed an etched reversing lever and quadrant, which is from Judith Edge Kits. The reach rod is made from scrap brass, pinned using 0.45mm brass wire.

Stephenson4-4-04-7.jpg.b97d79a957369025ab74ca67b0c55501.jpg

The toolbox at the front was milled from solid brass bar and has been glued on as trying to solder it without everything else coming apart would be next to impossible. All that remains to be done on this assembly, before painting, is to fit control rods for the sandboxes and to make and fit the coal bunker and fill it with lead. It will occupy the space between the firebox and the cab sheet. I don't think there would have been a bunker on the other side and there isn't space for one in the model now that the reversing lever is in.

 

The rear side hand rails, and the brake standard, will be fitted after painting.

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