Network Rail Overheat

[DY444]

12 hours ago, multivac said:

 

Why not? Forecast for at least a month. Preparations on the cheap instead of doing a thorough job?

 

I can't see any reason at all why they couldn't have re-stressed thousands of km of rail and fitted hundreds of uprated ole tensioners in a month.  Don't know what's wrong with them.  Country's gone to the dogs.

[Pete the Elaner]

17 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

I can't see any reason at all why they couldn't have re-stressed thousands of km of rail and fitted hundreds of uprated ole tensioners in a month.  Don't know what's wrong with them.  Country's gone to the dogs.

Which would of course have to be reversed in autumn before it all breaks when the cold weather makes it contract.

Theoretically possible but who wants to pay for it?

 

You also forgot enlarged & therefore heavier cooling systems.

 

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I was wondering how the "over engineered" GWML OLE had held up.

Very well according to NR on Tuesday evening .  The automatic tensioners are doing theiuir job and maintaining catenary tension with no need to reduce speeds for ohl reasons.  And - PHIL to note - that is far better than is happening with BR Mk1 catenary where even by Tuesday tensioning problems were emerging - and that is definitely not Treasury inspired cut-price overhead

 

3 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Meanwhile, in France, SNCF announced speed restrictions due to the effect of the heat on both rails and catenary, with consequent cancellations. All services into Paris, Gare d'Est suspended due to sub-station fire, apparently related to heat.

And the Belgian high speed line is currently closed due to track buckling yesterday.

[The Stationmaster]

28 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

I can't see any reason at all why they couldn't have re-stressed thousands of km of rail and fitted hundreds of uprated ole tensioners in a month.  Don't know what's wrong with them.  Country's gone to the dogs.

However the GEML is in process of being equipped with automatic tensioners in some places where catenary is being renewed so all folk have to do is wait getting on for 70 years from the date their local catenary was installed

[DY444]

37 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

However the GEML is in process of being equipped with automatic tensioners in some places where catenary is being renewed so all folk have to do is wait getting on for 70 years from the date their local catenary was installed

 

Indeed.  I think virtually all the ex-DC area has been done now (there might be a few wire runs in the Stratford area left to do - not sure) but it wasn't that long ago the GE always had restrictions on as far as Chelmsford every time the temperatures got into the high 20s.  Didn't see any reports of ole problems along there yesterday so hopefully the upgraded stuff did its job. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by DY444
Typo

[Fat Controller]

20 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

Indeed.  I think virtually all the ex-DC area has been done now (there might be a few wire runs in the Stratford area left to do - not sure) but it wasn't that long ago the GE always had restrictions on as far as Chelmsford every time the temperatures got into the high 20s.  Didn't see any reports of ole problems along there yesterday so hopefully the upgraded stuff did its job. 

Wasn't there a case a few years ago on the GE or LT&S where the sag was sufficient to arc across to a loco passing under it?

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, RusselBridge2017 said:

 

Started this thread for a little information on a specific train yesterday, how did it get hijacked by people criticizing and defending Britains Railways.... 

 

The topic title says "Network Rail Overheat"

No mention of a Class 37!

 

Most of the responses have been about the overheating of infastructure on Network rail.

What did you expect?

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by melmerby

[Mike Storey]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

However the GEML is in process of being equipped with automatic tensioners in some places where catenary is being renewed so all folk have to do is wait getting on for 70 years from the date their local catenary was installed

 

Should be all of it by the end. The programme to convert from GE fixed tension to Mark 3b started in 2010!

 

And all lines at Stratford itself were done, IIRC, prior to 2012. We had to stop short on one pair at Maryland when I was still there, because of complications in or just after the tunnels. That must have all been completed by now, surely. I am surprised they have still not finished entirely, although it was a rolling programme, designed to use RotR possessions to keep costs down, once 2012 was out of the way, so it was never going to be a quick job!

[Titan]

36 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Wasn't there a case a few years ago on the GE or LT&S where the sag was sufficient to arc across to a loco passing under it?

 

There was. A class 37 on the GE with roof mounted horns I believe. However that was before the upgrade. All the upgraded areas seem to be coping now.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Titan

[DY444]

10 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Should be all of it by the end. The programme to convert from GE fixed tension to Mark 3b started in 2010!

 

And all lines at Stratford itself were done, IIRC, prior to 2012. We had to stop short on one pair at Maryland when I was still there, because of complications in or just after the tunnels. That must have all been completed by now, surely. I am surprised they have still not finished entirely, although it was a rolling programme, designed to use RotR possessions to keep costs down, once 2012 was out of the way, so it was never going to be a quick job!

 

This article is about the work done over Christmas at Forest Gate:

 

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2019/01/29/electrification-renewals-at-forest-gate-over-christmas-2018/

 

Penultimate paragraph says it's all done apart from a section at Stratford

[The Stationmaster]

12 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Should be all of it by the end. The programme to convert from GE fixed tension to Mark 3b started in 2010!

 

And all lines at Stratford itself were done, IIRC, prior to 2012. We had to stop short on one pair at Maryland when I was still there, because of complications in or just after the tunnels. That must have all been completed by now, surely. I am surprised they have still not finished entirely, although it was a rolling programme, designed to use RotR possessions to keep costs down, once 2012 was out of the way, so it was never going to be a quick job!

Although a lot of it (but seemingly not all from what I have observed through the train window) is now being done using NR Series 1 kit.

[lmsforever]

 People on the news last night were saying that the continent do things better evidently it seems they don't ,BBC coverage very hostile to NR as usual.

[The Stationmaster]

1 minute ago, lmsforever said:

 People on the news last night were saying that the continent do things better evidently it seems they don't ,BBC coverage very hostile to NR as usual.

Typical British coverage I'm afraid.  it always seems to be based on some sort of negative perception of what happens here compared with what happens 'there' - wherever 'there' happens to be.  And the far from surprising thing is that those who shout loudest have probably never travelled on a train in any country other than Britain (assuming that is that they have actually travelled on one here?).

 

Here's SNCF's take on things (in English) hence with even more current information available locally hence my son contacting me this morning to look up some alternatives services for him tomorrow should the through Eurostar from Marseille happen to be a planned non-runner-

 

https://en.oui.sncf/en/help-en/disruption-information-latest-update-exchanges-and-refunds

 

SNCB also have problems

 

http://www.belgianrail.be/jp/sncb-nmbs-routeplanner/help.exe/en?tpl=him_map&tplParamHimMsgInfoGroup=trouble&channelFilter=custom1

[melmerby]

37 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

 People on the news last night were saying that the continent do things better evidently it seems they don't ,BBC coverage very hostile to NR as usual.

The BBC reports I saw weren't particularly hostile and did mention problems "sur le continong"

Are you sure you not just taken a pot at the Beeb?

[multivac]

Sorry if I was "over the top" with my comments in previous posts.  I would be interested in replies from those in the rail industry in how the UK railways cope with high temperatures and if possible comparing practice to other countries especially Japan.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, lmsforever said:

 People on the news last night were saying that the continent do things better evidently it seems they don't ,BBC coverage very hostile to NR as usual.

Were these BBC people, or simply 'vox pops'?

[Ceptic]

[anroar53]

Thought this might be of interest from the Summer of 1976 as a comparison to recent events. Some may have seen a few of my articles in Traction Magazine on ' 1970s Euston Days' lately ? This entry, which hasn't as yet been published so far mainly concerns 23.06.76 and shows what happened with sagging wire even then, although the temperature was about 5-6c lower than the other day.

 

Andy A.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by anroar53

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Very well according to NR on Tuesday evening .  The automatic tensioners are doing theiuir job and maintaining catenary tension with no need to reduce speeds for ohl reasons.  And - PHIL to note - that is far better than is happening with BR Mk1 catenary where even by Tuesday tensioning problems were emerging - and that is definitely not Treasury inspired cut-price overhead

 

 

 

I believe I read somewhere that the BR Mk1 OLE was actually the result of an edit by the then Ministry of Transport that unless savings were made then HM Treasury would pull the plug on the original WCML scheme and the wires would go no further south that Crewe! As a result not only were numerous WCML mechanical signal boxes retained (albut modernised) and some routes dropped (Kidsgrove - Crewe) from the programme, but the OLE design itself was revised to make it cheaper.....

Edited July 26, 2019 by phil-b259

[55020]

14 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Ministry of Transport that unless savings were made then HM Treasury would pull the plug on the original WCML scheme and the wires would go no further south that Crewe!

 

I'm pretty sure that should read "north of Crewe".  I'm not aware of any infrastructure project that would start in Scotland and then, if funds allow, would reach London!

[david.hill64]

4 minutes ago, 55020 said:

 

I'm pretty sure that should read "north of Crewe".  I'm not aware of any infrastructure project that would start in Scotland and then, if funds allow, would reach London!

Electrification to Scotland came much later.

The first sections electrified were Manchester-Crewe and Liverpool- Crewe. Phil's comment about extending no further south from Crewe has the geography correct.

[phil-b259]

Just now, 55020 said:

 

I'm pretty sure that should read "north of Crewe".  I'm not aware of any infrastructure project that would start in Scotland and then, if funds allow, would reach London!

 

Nope!

 

The WCML electrification started in Manchester - the London Road / Piccadilly to Crewe via Styal being the trial site for 25KV electrification in the UK.

 

While other works may have started at the London end, the wires were put up (and energised) starting from Liverpool / Manchester heading southwards with loco swaps between electric and steam / diesel moving southwards towards London as work progressed.

 

The bit into Euston was thus the last bit of OLE to be completed!

 

Granted all subsequent schemes (ECML, MML, GEML all started from the London end though and likewise the extension of wires to the northern section of the WCML started from Wever Junction and headed north to Scotland.

[caradoc]

3 hours ago, lmsforever said:

 People on the news last night were saying that the continent do things better evidently it seems they don't ,BBC coverage very hostile to NR as usual.

 

And the headline on the BBC News website this morning was on the lines of 'Rail travel problems continue despite temperature falling', as if all the damage should have miraculously repaired itself as soon as it got a bit cooler.

 

[jim.snowdon]

10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Ever heard that quotation 'You reap what you sow'?

 

Well the large number of de-wirements experienced yesterday is a direct result of 1980s HM Treasury demands that required BR to go for the cheapest (and flimsiest) OLE system they could find. This OLE has been found wanting on more than one occasion - yet when NR actually put up something decently strong (i.e. GWML stuff) we get howls of protest.

 

Something those whinging about 'gold plated infrastructure schemes / demanding cuts to save money need to understand - you can't have both cheap yet high quality regardless of whether its baked beans or railway infrastructure!

Of the events yesterday, the one outside Euston (more specifically, in the vicinity of Primrose Hill) on that took out several lines and some of the playorms at Euston was on essentially 1960s design infrastructure,

and the one not far outside St Pancras appears to have involved a contact wire parting, not something that is usually related to high temperatures, where in the worst case, the wire tension falls rather than rising. The latter one was apparently the cause of a lineside fire that required the services of the LFB, which in turn entailed doing an Emergency Switch Off of all lines in the vicinity.

 

Elsewhere, the "howls of protest" about the GWML infrastructure is not to do with the OLE itself, but the structures that hold it up. The contact wire system - the catenary, contact wire and the bits in between - does not "know" whether it is being held up by vintage Mk1 structures or by the GWML's clumsy and overweight structures. It is simply attached to them. Its behaviour is influenced by the distances between structures, and increasing those is a quick way of achieving a significant saving, but at the cost, for example, of higher lateral wind deflections and risk of dewirement through the wire running off the end of the pantograph.

 

Jim

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The WCML electrification started in Manchester - the London Road / Piccadilly to Crewe via Styal being the trial site for 25KV electrification in the UK.

Strictly, the trial site was the line between Lancaster and Heysham, but you are correct in that the Styal Line was the pilot site for the electrification of the LNW Manchester /Liverpool - London routes.

 

Jim