Driving a sound equipped diesel or steam loco

[Footy]

Not sure if this is the best forum for this topic but here goes.

You can find any number of discussions threads on RMWeb about installing / fixing / modifying sound chips of every type and manufacturer into practically every diesel or steam locomotive ever sold.

But having gone to the trouble of fitting sound to a loco, what I would really like to know is how to drive the sounds so that my pride and joy not only looks like the real thing but sounds as though it is working like the  real thing.  It's all very well turning up the speed control and listening to your favourite loco chuff/thrash it's way into the fiddle yard accompanied by a seemingly never ending symphony of random sounds but surely there should be more to it than that?

We agonize over the most obscure detail but when it comes to sound our inner child takes over and we play.  Well that's what I do.  But what I'd love to do would be to replicate  in movement and sound how a real locomotive reacts to the driver, the load and the rail conditions.

I need the loco driving equivalent of a musical score and a conductor to guide me and tell me when I get the notes in the wrong order.

Anyone fancy the job?

 

 

 

 

 

[pauliebanger]

This is an interesting thread. It's good to know that end users are thinking about the way decoder should be operated to obtain realistic simulation of real life operations.

 

In order to achieve your goals you need to know how your various locos operate in real life.

 

Getting a cab ride or listening closely to the engine when travelling in a passenger car is a good start.

 

Seek out the preserved railways which still run 'Driver for a Fiver' and such-like schemes and have a go at driving the real thing. Nothing beats hands-on experience, however brief.

 

Listen to YouTube videos of real locos and trains (generally, not models, as this will be coloured by the knowledge and experience of the operator/video editor).

 

When you are confident that you understand how your chosen loco works and the sounds which are produced you will have a chance to simulate this with suitable sound projects. Most UK sound producers provide on board tools which vary the reaction to your control inputs, though the degree of control and the number of different scenarios covered varies between different providers and even betwee different projects from the same provider.

 

My sound projects, which are all for ZIMO decoders and available from Digitrains (or fitted to r-t-r models in various gauges), come with User Notes specific to that loco type which explain all the features and sounds, why and how the sounds are produced, and tips on driving techniques to get the best from the decoder depending upon what scenario you are trying to emulate at that time.

 

To sum up.

 

Research your chosen motive power

Understand how they work in real life, ask questions (of the loco/train crew or here, for example) about anything whih you do not fully grasp. You will find most enthusiasts will be very happy to provide explanations (provided they are not too busy with running the loco).

Read any 'sound project specific' operating instructions or User Notes which are provided with the model (r-t-r) or the decoder so you know what is possible.

Ask here or your sound project provider for any addition information that will aid your understanding of what the decoder is capable.

Translate that into your modus operandi.

 

 

If there are particular things which you wish to emulate and cannot glean sufficient info from any supplied documentation, ask here. Remember that a well formed request for help on a specific issue will elicit the most focussed and appropriate responses.

 

It is useful if you include the decoder brand, and the sound project supplier (if you know that) in your questions. Some decoders are more capable that others (often in particular aspects) and some projects are more feature-rich than others, even within the same decoder brand.

 

Your musical score is derived from understanding the real life operation, the conductor is provided by the User Notes and supplementary answers to questions you raise.

 

Good luck with your quest.

 

Best regards

 

Paul

Edited July 26, 2019 by pauliebanger

[FSB]

This is a topic which South West Digital have been addressing for the past two or three years. The ESU decoder, in the right hands, is capable of producing the right sounds at the right time, hence they market their sounds as YouDrive. With their systems it is possible to imagine you are indeed driving your steam locos. They are created by someone who knows the decoder intimately and has the support of someone who knows how to drive a steam loco and what should typically happen and when. Guidance notes are given with each system but improves with practice and familiarity. Many sound systems are videoed on YouTube and frankly many are substantially flawed, usually by ignorance of the prototype and sometimes, amazingly, by the attitude 'that it doesn't matter'! You spend quite a lot of money on currently available r-t-r locos so why put up with a poor and often inaccurate sound system? FSB

[Pete the Elaner]

We had a 'DCC session' at the club recently with a view to knowledge share & eventually learn how to drive locos on our layout...when we finish it.

I took along a couple of sound fitted locos, including an 08 with Paul's ActiveDrive. I had already set appropriate acceleration. Deceleration was adjusted for coasting, using F2 for braking.

 

Someone else started to drive it & after seeing it pull away, immediately hit Momentum, 0 on the Powercab. (For those unfamiliar with an NCE throttle, this sets acceleration & deceleration to 0, but sound projects rely on gradual speed changes, not a sudden jump from stopped to flat out.

 

I nearly cried... mainly because of the complete disregard of how a train actually moves. The settings themselves were no problem because I had previously backed them up with JMRI.

 

I think more education is in order. 

[cravensdmufan]

5 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

We had a 'DCC session' at the club recently with a view to knowledge share & eventually learn how to drive locos on our layout...when we finish it.

I took along a couple of sound fitted locos, including an 08 with Paul's ActiveDrive. I had already set appropriate acceleration. Deceleration was adjusted for coasting, using F2 for braking.

 

Someone else started to drive it & after seeing it pull away, immediately hit Momentum, 0 on the Powercab. (For those unfamiliar with an NCE throttle, this sets acceleration & deceleration to 0, but sound projects rely on gradual speed changes, not a sudden jump from stopped to flat out.

 

I nearly cried... mainly because of the complete disregard of how a train actually moves. The settings themselves were no problem because I had previously backed them up with JMRI.

 

I think more education is in order. 

Using the MOMENTUM button on the Powercab can usually results in upsetting the programming in sound decoders!

 

Best to disable the button - as discussed here:

 

Getting back to the OP regarding driving techniques,  some sound providers provide better user notes than others.  I have found Hornby TTS (the cheapest decoders!) instructions/ guidance notes to be some of the best, but Legoman (most expensive decoders but great sounds) not nearly as good!

 

Very much a case of experimenting as they all have different characteristics - and having good fun in the process!

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by cravensdmufan
Change of wording

[FSB]

P.S. Further to my posting yesterday, I have made SWD aware that I have mentioned them on this site. They're OK with that and suggest that anyone interested in finding out how their systems work, you should visit their stand at Telford or Warley where advice will gladly be given. FSB

[pauliebanger]

On 26/07/2019 at 12:58, Pete the Elaner said:

Someone else started to drive it & after seeing it pull away, immediately hit Momentum, 0 on the Powercab. (For those unfamiliar with an NCE throttle, this sets acceleration & deceleration to 0, but sound projects rely on gradual speed changes, not a sudden jump from stopped to flat out.

 

I nearly cried... mainly because of the complete disregard of how a train actually moves.

 

Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.

 

Not everyone reads RMweb, it seems. (or User Notes, perhaps).

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[jpendle]

Driving a sound equipped train is VERY hard.

I have a sound equipped Revolution Pendolino, starting from a stop is dead easy, select a speed and it does it's stuff, beeping, starting up, etc, etc and then it moves away and gradually accelerates up to the selected speed.

Stopping it in line with platforms at a station is a learning experience, and an art I have yet to master fully.

 

I can fully understand someone who is used to the immediate effect on a non sound loco (be it DCC or DC) of throttle actions. We can very unrealistically stop a very heavy train going well in excess of scale 80mph in less than a foot. Kind of like doing 70 on the slip road of a motorway and then trying to come to a stop before you kill yourself and any other poor unfortunate that gets in the way.

 

Complex sound projects map directly into 'complex' interactions with the DCC throttle repsonse and that may be too tricky for some to master.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[pauliebanger]

John,

 

You can get your Pendelino to stop  that way too, if you wish. Just reduce the value in CV4  close to zero, not that I would recommend this because as you say, it would upset the way the sounds are played.

 

What you need is manual control of braking. This will give the best of both worlds - realistic coasting duration with the ability to over-ride this when and where you wish to halt.  I believe some versions of ESU Loksound (your probable sound decoder) have such a feature.

 

All ZIMO sound decoders have a very realistic, adjustable and progressive Brake Key feature. (Though not included in every sound project for ZIMO decoders).

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[Pete the Elaner]

On 26/07/2019 at 18:40, cravensdmufan said:

Using the MOMENTUM button on the Powercab can usually results in upsetting the programming in sound decoders!

 

Best to disable the button - as discussed here:

 

 

I remember that discussion & have never touched the momentum button since then. The incident reminded me to mention it 

This was someone else with the club's throttle. They were fairly new to using the PowerCab which is why we had the knowledge sharing session.

 

They know about it now! I wonder what other 'forgotten knowledge' I will be reminded about next time?

[Footy]

Apologies for the delay in responding but work has been getting in the way of the important things in life.

 

Thank you all for your responses.   Good advice all, though I'm not sure I'll need to put the "Pendolino" advice into action.

 

What is clear to me is that there is a demand for more awareness of this subject  and given you can read magazine articles or buy books on practically every aspect of this hobby, I'm surprised no one has thought to cover this topic in greater depth.

Anyway, thanks again all.  I'm off to play with my train set.

[charliepetty]

On 27/07/2019 at 16:48, jpendle said:

Driving a sound equipped train is VERY hard.

I have a sound equipped Revolution Pendolino, starting from a stop is dead easy, select a speed and it does it's stuff, beeping, starting up, etc, etc and then it moves away and gradually accelerates up to the selected speed.

Stopping it in line with platforms at a station is a learning experience, and an art I have yet to master fully.

 

I can fully understand someone who is used to the immediate effect on a non sound loco (be it DCC or DC) of throttle actions. We can very unrealistically stop a very heavy train going well in excess of scale 80mph in less than a foot. Kind of like doing 70 on the slip road of a motorway and then trying to come to a stop before you kill yourself and any other poor unfortunate that gets in the way.

 

Complex sound projects map directly into 'complex' interactions with the DCC throttle repsonse and that may be too tricky for some to master.

 

Regards,

 

John P

All the latest Legomanbiffo Electrics & Diesels have Active Braking on the Version 5 decoders, the Revolution in a Non Reblowable LokSound Select decoder sadly.   Charlie 'Legomanbiffo Team'