A typical S&DJR train, c. 1902?

[Compound2632]

I have been enjoying the discussion on Jack Benson’s various threads about ex-LMS coaches on local trains on the Somerset & Dorset in the 1950s. This has got me going back to my notes on my real interest, S&DJR carriages working north of Bath and Midland carriages working south,  in the early 20th century. While browsing the web for relevant photos, I came across this poster for an exhibition organised by the Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust to mark the fiftieth anniversary of the line’s closure. It features a rather charming photo of what looks at first glance to be a typical S&DJR train in the distinctive blue livery – but all is not what it seems...  

 

The train is hauled by S&DJR 4-4-0 No. 15, built at Derby in May 1891; it is in its original condition, i.e. before reboilering in April 1905, when it lost the Slater safety valves on the dome [Bradley & Minton, p. 87]. So far, so blue. It’s once one starts looking closely at the carriages that one’s expectations start to be challenged. I’ve taken the liberty of including a couple of crops from the poster, for research purposes. Here are the first two carriages:

 

 

If Garner's catalogue is to be believed, Highbridge only built one or two bogie arc-roofed carriages, 46ft or 48ft composites No. 37 and possibly No. 38. This first carriage isn’t either of those. It is a Midland 40ft bogie brake composite to D528, altered from a bogie composite; the iron-frame rather than Pullman bogies suggest that it is one of the 37 vehicles ordered on Oct 1882 as Lot 83 and completed in the first half of 1883. As built, these carriages appear as D263 in the diagram book. This carriage has a droplight in the LH door to the luggage compartment and a fixed light added alongside in place of the original blank panel – an arrangement characteristic of bogie brake composites with a short brake compartment (compare D524 and D529 of 1889) [Lacy & Dow, p.88; the diagram, Fig. 95, shows the arrangement of the carriages built to Lot 106 in 1884].

 

The second carriage is obviously Midland: a 48ft square-light clerestory bogie lavatory brake third, D499. It has no guard’s lookout. The first 25, Lot 432, built 1898-9, may have been among those carriages originally built with large lookouts that were rapidly found to be an embarrassment at some locations where the six-foot clearance was tight. These lookouts were removed from July 1899; the next 25, Lot 488, and last 11, Lot 500, all built 1900-1, were without lookouts from new. Shallow lookouts were fitted to all vehicles, starting in 1902, it’s not recorded when this work was completed [Lacy & Dow, pp.126, 159].

 

Here’s the rest of the train:

 

 

The third carriage is a 31ft five-compartment 6-wheel third, either Midland D493, of which over 300 were built in 1884-8 [Lacy & Dow, p.106], or one of the identical S&DJR carriages built by Oldbury c. 1886 (16? Nos. 39-54, 125) and Cravens c. 1890-91 (20? Nos. 60-79), and also at Highbridge c. 1890 (7? Nos. 109, 110, 112, 114, 116-8) [Garner].

The fourth carriage is undoubtedly S&DJR: a 46ft seven-compartment lavatory third. According to Garner, five were built; he gives a 1900 build date for No. 90 but 1901 or 1912 for Nos. 58 and 95; this carriage can’t be either No. 87 or No. 88, as he gives a 1907 build date for that pair. The LSWR-style profile of the three-arc roof is obviously different to the lower roof of the Midland clerestory carriage – it is much nearer vertical at the eves. Note the roof-mounted destination board.

 

The fifth carriage is another Midland vehicle; it has six compartments with a central lavatory; it must be a composite given the wider spacing visible between some of the compartments. I have narrowed it down to D512, a 45ft bogie lavatory composite of which 25 were built in 1884 as Lot 105 [Lacy & Dow, pp.92-94]. This carriage also has a roof-mounted destination board.

 

Bringing up the rear is a 4-wheel brake van with a centre guard’s lookout. S&DJR 4-wheel brake vans seem to have had a ducket at one end [NRM DY 8519A, Garner p.22]. The vehicle in the photo looks very like a Midland D529 25ft brake van, of which several hundred were built at Derby from 1875 to 1894, along with 169 by outside builders in 1875/6. Garner notes four of these non-Derby-built vans coming into S&DJR stock in 1877; this is corroborated by Lacy & Dow, p.367. These early vans had low roofs with 10ft radius; for new construction from c. 1878, the roof radius was reduced to 8ft, giving a greater overall height. The roof profile of the van in the photo seems to match that of the bogie composite, which certainly has the higher roof. This strongly suggests that it is a Midland, not a S&DJR, vehicle.

 

This six-coach train, which at first sight looks to be a typical S&DJR stopping train, is almost entirely composed of Midland carriages – more red than blue! There is only one vehicle that can be positively identified as S&DJR, and one other that might be. A surprising feature of the train is the low proportion of first class accommodation – only 5 compartments, compared to 20 thirds. Could this be an excursion? The roof boards on two of the carriages suggest a regular working. The photograph cannot be earlier than c. 1900, by the D499 brake third without lookout and the S&DJR lavatory third, or later than early 1905 by the condition of the engine; my guess is c. 1902. Can anyone suggest the location and the direction of the train?

 

Does anyone know the provenance of the photo?

 

References:

D. Bradley & D. Minton, Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973).

R. Garner, The Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway Locomotive and Rolling Stock Registers 1886 - 1930 (The Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust, 2000).

R.E. Lacy and G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986).

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Compound2632
Photos reinserted

[RailWest]

Is that not somewhere north of Blandford?

[Compound2632]

50 minutes ago, RailWest said:

Is that not somewhere north of Blandford?

 

Heading north or south? My guess is south, since the sun is behind the photographer and afternoon is a more likely time to be lugging your camera and crate of glass plates out to the lineside.

[bécasse]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Heading north or south? My guess is south, since the sun is behind the photographer and afternoon is a more likely time to be lugging your camera and crate of glass plates out to the lineside.

It is most likely to a Saturday afternoon, unless the photographer was a Reverend gentleman (when a Monday would be more likely).

It is easy to forget that, almost until the end of the steam era, most people who could afford to photograph trains worked a five and a half day week and only had a fortnight off each year. Although Saturday timetables were often not dissimilar to those that applied Mondays to Fridays, locomotive and carriage set working was often quite different.

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, RailWest said:

Is that not somewhere north of Blandford?

 

Delving into Atthill, I learn that by 1900 the single-track sections were in the north, Bath Junction to Midford, and in the south, the entire stretch from Templecombe to Broadstone, with the Blandford-Corfe Mullen section being doubled between 1901 and 1905. The train looks to have just rounded a curve and breasted a summit. I'm not very familiar with the topography but could it be approaching Broadstone? The cutting face in the background looks very white; this may just be the exposure but at only around 15 years old, this would be the newest chalk cutting on the line? 

[RailWest]

Bailey Gate - Corfe Mullen had been two tracks (but as two parallel single lines) since 1885. I too had wondered about it possibly being Corfe Mullen - Broadstone.

 

Circa 1900 the 'newest' chalk cuttings in fact would have been in the Spetisbury area, where the line was widened for double-track on the Up side about 1899/1900. But given that the double-track was opened in 1901, I would have expected a lot of it to have been in place already by late 1900, which is why I suspect it is north of Blandford not south.

 

Maybe the S&DRT know the answer?

[tingleytim]

Looks like Milldown, north of Blandford, on the level section at the top of the 1 in 80 gradient visible in the distance in the picture.  Very much a chalk area.   Rocks were sandier in the Broadstone and Corfe Mullen area.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, RailWest said:

Maybe the S&DRT know the answer?

 

Presumably the photo is in their collection - although what is on their website seems to be all "modern" by my standards!

 

1 hour ago, tingleytim said:

Looks like Milldown, north of Blandford, on the level section at the top of the 1 in 80 gradient visible in the distance in the picture.  Very much a chalk area.   Rocks were sandier in the Broadstone and Corfe Mullen area.

 

In which case, if I have understood correctly, the train would be north-bound? I haven't been able to reconcile the deep cutting side on the right with the OS 25" map - maybe I'm not looking in quite the right place?

[tingleytim]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

In which case, if I have understood correctly, the train would be north-bound? I haven't been able to reconcile the deep cutting side on the right with the OS 25" map - maybe I'm not looking in quite the right place?

I think the train could be southbound at roughly grid ref 881078 on my 1:25,000 map (if I’ve got my eastings and northings in the right order).  The line was cut into a slope with high ground to the right.  But there are others with much better local knowledge than me that would surely clarify this.

[Compound2632]

That's where I was looking - just north of an occupation bridge over the line, which could have been the photographer's point of access unless he'd walked the line from Blandford station - trust he had a lineside permit! I was confused by your mention of the 1:80, which I took to be the climb up out of Blandford but looking more closely at the gradient profile in Atkins I see this level stretch was at the summit of a 1:80 climb from both directions.

[down the sdjr]

On 27/07/2019 at 10:47, RailWest said:

Bailey Gate - Corfe Mullen had been two tracks (but as two parallel single lines) since 1885. I too had wondered about it possibly being Corfe Mullen - Broadstone.

 

Circa 1900 the 'newest' chalk cuttings in fact would have been in the Spetisbury area, where the line was widened for double-track on the Up side about 1899/1900. But given that the double-track was opened in 1901, I would have expected a lot of it to have been in place already by late 1900, which is why I suspect it is north of Blandford not south.

 

Maybe the S&DRT know the answer?

It really looks like the cutting at Spetisbury looking south.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, down the sdjr said:

It really looks like the cutting at Spetisbury looking south.

 

Does not compute: Railwest has stated that the doubling was in place or at least in progress at Spetisbury at the earliest date we can give this photo, i.e. 1900, given the S&DJR bogie third and the Midland D499 bogie third brake. See the OS 25" map, revised 1900.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Compound2632

[RailWest]

That map has a number of features which show that it must have been surveyed before the doubling work was completed, eg no apparent Up platform or buildings, signals still in the original locations etc, so IMHO it is clear that the Up line was in place by the survey date in 1900.

 

Having said that, it does not per se stop the photo looking like the Spetisbury cutting - whether it actually was taken there or not is another matter :-)

[down the sdjr]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Does not compute: Railwest has stated that the doubling was in place or at least in progress at Spetisbury at the earliest date we can give this photo, i.e. 1900, given the S&DJR bogie third and the Midland D499 bogie third brake. See the OS 25" map, revised 1900.

I have been trying to think where the photo might have been taken for the past few days, i grew up in Blandford and i cant think of a spot near the Milldown that has a cutting that high on one side but none on the other. Maybe close to the current bypass or a bit further north near the bridge over the A350 to Stourpaine, certainly solid chalk those hills, but why would it be freshly exposed after so many years in service?

 

Those old maps are wonderful, great resource.(thank you)

 

I walked the old line from Blandford to Sturminster Newton last month, absolutely stunning and still a lot to be seen of interest for a DCR nerd like myself. The small 3 arch cattle creep near to Blandford bypass is a great little structure, i had no idea it was there, despite driving past it a thousand times.

[Compound2632]

A couple more thoughts on the carriages.

 

All T.G. Clayton's arc-roofed carriages - from 1873 until the introduction of the square-panelled clerestories in 1896 - were 8'0" wide over the body; the same goes for the S&DJR carriages built at Highbridge or ordered in from Oldbury and Cravens, all of which were built to the same Midland style of panelling, even if differing from Midland diagrams. The square-panelled clerestories were 8'6" wide, as is apparent from my first cropped image. The second crop shows quite clearly that the Highbridge high-roofed carriages retained the 8'0" width - was this the width of LSWR carriages built around the turn of the century, from which the roof profile of the Highbridge carriages is clearly derived?

 

The third carriage, the 5-compartment third, could be either Midland of S&DJR. Going through Garner and doing some adding up, it's clear the S&DJR thirds, which as far as I can see are identical to Midland D493, were by a considerable margin the commonest type of S&DJR carriage, with at least 44 out of a total stock of around 130 (excluding passenger brake vans and NPCS) - proportionately rather more common than D493 was in the Midland fleet. The balance of probability might therefore be in favour of it being blue, were it not for the predominance of red vehicles in the train.

 

[down the sdjr]

I really hope we find the location of this photo, it is most interesting.

[RailWest]

I saw some S&DRT publicity material yesterday which labelled the photo as "near Blandford", but that doesn't really help much......

[Compound2632]

Well that ties in with tingleytim's identification which I couldn't fault.

[down the sdjr]

Some nice pictures of early Spetisbury here.

 

https://spetisburystationproject.wordpress.com/archive-photos/

 

Im not saying thats the location and sorry if the link has been posted elsewhere, i just thought it might be of interest.

[03060]

I did think that the picture in the OP bore striking similarities to 4 pictures shown in S&DJR A View from the Past, by Stephen Austin (Ian Allen) which are all said to have been taken around Blandford in the late 1890's. Pages 19, 71 and 2 on p.77 for those who are interested, part of the LGRP / Bucknall collection.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, down the sdjr said:

Some nice pictures of early Spetisbury here.

 

https://spetisburystationproject.wordpress.com/archive-photos/

 

Im not saying thats the location and sorry if the link has been posted elsewhere, i just thought it might be of interest.

 

Nice set of photos there. In the one with the 0-4-4T in the station, the first 4-wheel brake is a Midland D529 or just possibly one of the four transferred to the S&DJR, while the second is the pukka Highbridge variety with lookouts at the end. Is there a story as to why the disc and crossbar signal survived to such a comparatively late date?

[RailWest]

>>>Is there a story as to why the disc and crossbar signal survived to such a comparatively late date.....

 

Hard to say really. As it was essentially being used as a 'station stop' signal towards the end, maybe it was not considered worthwhile changing it ? Indeed, they actually re-located it while the doubling work was in progress, again perhaps as it was not worth the effort of  providing a temporary replacement? Curious though that they had changed the other D&C to semaphore some years previous.

 

The D&Cs at Green Lane Crossing were abolished in the same month as those at Spetisbury, while those at Milldown Crossing survived until 1902 apparently.

[tingleytim]

21 hours ago, 03060 said:

I did think that the picture in the OP bore striking similarities to 4 pictures shown in S&DJR A View from the Past, by Stephen Austin (Ian Allen) which are all said to have been taken around Blandford in the late 1890's. Pages 19, 71 and 2 on p.77 for those who are interested, part of the LGRP / Bucknall collection.

 

Regards,

Ian.

The picture on page 19 is the same one!  Thought I'd seen it before somewhere.  Stephen Austin says the location is Mill Down, north of Blandford.  Well done 03060 for finding the published picture.

[Compound2632]

The Stephen Austin book has a very pretty picture on the cover and is moderately available second hand at a bargain price but before I take the plunge, I'd be very grateful if you S&DJR aficionados could assure me that it contains a goodly number f "period" photos - I'm not really interested in an Ivo Petersesque volume of photos on 2Ps piloting Bulleid pacifics on Summer Saturdays in the 50/60s! 

[03060]

Hello Compound, I don't think that you'd be too dissappointed, there are more than 50 decent photos of S&DJR liveried locos, some on trains, plus many other photos taken in both the LMS and BR periods, so plenty for the eye to absorb and definately not presented in the Ivo Peters style of books. Physically it's more in keeping size wise with Middleton Press style books, approx. 110 pages and good cleanly printed B&W photos.

 

I like it, although as ever I can never seem to quite be able to identify some of the PO wagons in the period goods trains ....with the exception of the Bolsover coal wagons. I'm sure that you could provide us with a lot of information regarding the different passenger vehicles shown which is not my strong point.

 

Regards,

Ian.

Edited August 10, 2019 by 03060
Extra info added.