A typical S&DJR train, c. 1902?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, 03060 said:

Yes, I have at the least photocopies of an A5 ish sized book which had listings of S&DJR carriages that transferred to the Southern region which contains a small number of photos of them in Southern livery

 

That sounds like H.C. Casserley's Britains Joint Lines (Ian Allan, 1968), which I have, There's a couple of good photos of bogie carriages: composite No. 36 at Bath in 1929 - in S&DJR livery of course - and brake third No. 107 as SR 3764, at Templecomb in 1937. I've been directed towards Mike King's Southern Coaches Survey; Pre-Grouping and BR Mk 1 Stock, published by Crecy, which I've ordered.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Compound2632

[03060]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That sounds like H.C. Casserley's Britains Joint Lines (Ian Allan, 1968), which I have, There's a couple of good photos of bogie carriages: composite No. 36 at Bath in 1929 - in S&DJR livery of course - and brake third No. 107 as SR 3764, at Templecomb in 1937. I've been directed towards Mike King's Southern Coaches Survey; Pre-Grouping and BR Mk 1 Stock, published by Crecy, which I've ordered.

 

Yes, probably, Stephen. I will have borrowed it from the Leeds MRC club most likely and photocopied the relevant pages.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[Compound2632]

I now have Mike King, Southern Coaches survey Pre-Grouping and BR Mk1 Stock (OPC / Crecy, 2019). This has a chapter on S&DJR carriages after 1930, which is very good on the bogie carriages, untangling some of the knots I was tying myself in. From my reading of Casserley's Joint Lines and Garner's Register, I had assumed that the three carriages listed as becoming motor brake thirds, Nos. 90, 103, and 115, had all started out as brake thirds. King makes it clear that this was not the case and the position before conversion in 1927/8 was:

• Nos. 86 and 103, two carriages both built 1902 as 7-compartment thirds with luggage compartment, seating 70, and both with the luggage compartment converted to a third coupe, one in 1915 and the other in 1919, each gaining 5 seats. 
• Nos. 58, 87, 88, 90, 91, 95, 115, seven carriages all built as 7-compartment lavatory thirds, seating 68 (presumably).
• Nos. 55-57, 59, 96, 100, 102, 105-7, 111, 120, 120, thirteen carriages built as 3-compartment brake thirds, seating 30.

This does mean that I can no longer get the number of third class seats in carriages of uniform class to add up neatly...

 

As to the motor train conversions, it seems that the following were converted in 1927 (August, according to Bradley & Milton, Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History):

• No. 86 to driving motor third by conversion of the coupe compartment to driving compartment, with a loss of 5 seats, i.e. reversion to the original 70 seats.
• No. 103 to driving motor brake third by the conversion of the coupe and adjacent full compartment to a brake compartment and the full compartment at the other end to driving compartment, with a loss of 25 seats, i.e. final capacity 50 seats.
• No. 115 to driving motor brake third by conversion of one end compartment to driving compartment and the lavatories and one adjacent compartment to a brake compartment, with the loss of 19 seats but perhaps the gain of one. 

Nos 86 and 103 were observed as a pair on the Highbridge-Burnham motor train in 1928 and 1930, and No. 115 in 1934 on the Wells branch - implying that these services were third class only. The reduction in third class seating due to motor conversions was 48 (or thereabouts), out of a total reduction of 275 seats; with the reduction in the number of carriages of uniform class being 5, this would appear to imply that not all the withdrawn carriages were 6-wheel thirds, as that would be a reduction of 250 in third class seats.

 

Conversions in 1928 (May, according to Bradley and Milton) were:

• No. 90 to driving motor brake third apparently by conversion two compartments at one end to driving and brake compartments, a loss of 20 seats.
• No. 91 to motor composite saloon, with the doors to all but three compartments sealed up but otherwise no change to the window layout, so the interior layout and change in seating is a mystery - but would be a loss of third class seats in carriages of uniform class and a gain of both first and third class seats in composites.
• No. 28, the 48 ft lavatory composite, to driving motor brake third, by the conversion of one compartment to driving compartment and much of the middle portion, including the lavatories and two first class compartments to a brake compartment and third class saloon, so apart from the loss of 11 first class seats (under composites) it is also a mystery. 

Nos. 90 and 91 worked the Templecombe-Bournemouth motor train introduced in May 1928 but this was withdrawn after a few months, according to Bradley and Milton. No. 28 worked the Wells branch for many years. They also state that the Bridgwater branch was worked by motor train, so perhaps that is where Nos. 90 and 91 ended up?

 

None of this modifies the conclusion that a total of 35 6-wheel carriages were withdrawn in the late 1920s, so that the LMS share of the stock did not include any non-bogie passenger-carrying vehicles and no vehicles that went to the LMS were withdrawn before the 1933 renumbering, i.e. the list in Casserley is a complete list of carriages that went to the LMS.

[Compound2632]

The division of the coaching stock in 1930 saw the Southern getting the lion's share of the passenger carriages - 26 bogie carriages and all the surviving 6-wheelers, whereas the LMS share was just 18 bogie carriages, including all the motor fitted ones. The explanation for this is to be found in Joint Committee minute 4622 of 6 November 1929, which reproduces a report by Sir Josiah Stamp and Sir Herbert Walker into the future maintenance of p/way and provision of locomotives and rolling stock. Their proposals included:

 

"(d) The coaching vehicles to be transferred to the Owning Companies in such proportions that the use on the Joint Line of each Company’s vehicles (including L.M.& S. carriages on through trains) will, as far as possible, be equalised; ..."

 

In other words, the thinking was that the division would mean that Southern carriages would provide half the carriage mileage and LMS carriages the other half, but LMS carriages were already providing a good proportion of the carriage mileage, on the through trains between Bournemouth and the North. Which takes us back to my opening post in this topic!

[Compound2632]

One can see why division of the rolling stock was thought a good idea when one discovers the bureaucracy involved in what one would think would be the most trivial of jobs, such as the conversion of ancient and I should imagine pretty well unused open carriage trucks to ash wagons for the loco department. It had to go right to the top for approval - Minute 4403 of 3 November 1926:

 

Replacement of Worn-out Service Wagons

                              Referring to minute of the Officers, No. 7810, dated 12 July last, the following report of the Accountants of the Parent Companies was submitted and approved:-

                                                                                                         21st September 1926

                              Replacement of Service Vehicles

               In accordance with Officers’ Conference Minute No. 7810 dated 12th July 1926 we have considered the financial transactions involved in connection with the conversion of six of the Committee’s stock of Carriage trucks, which are 30 years old, into Ash Wagons.

               The original cost of the carriage trucks to be converted was £405 and in view of their length of service we recommend that this amount be written off out of Capital to the debit of the Coaching Stock Capital Redemption Fund.

               We also recommend that the estimated cost of £138 for conversion of the Carriage trucks into Ash Wagons be charged to Locomotive Running Expenses under the heading of “Cost of Fuel” and spread over a period of three years.

                              R.G. Davidson, Joint Accountant, Southern Railway

                              J. Fredk Gee, Chief Accountant, London, Midland & Scottish Railway.

 

That's not the only instance. Three new 20-ton brake vans were supplied by the LMS in late 1925, in replacement of three old 10-ton brake vans. Minute 4357 of 4 November 1925 really shuffles the money around: 

 

Provision of three 20-ton Brake Vans

                              Referring to minute of 22nd July last No. 4337, a report by the Accountants of the Parent Companies, dated 2nd instant, was submitted recommending that the expenditure of £1,188 upon the provision of three 20-ton Brake Vans be dealt with as follows:-

(1)   Capital Account to be debited with a sum of £522 in respect of the increased capacity of the brake vans;

(2)   The Depreciation Fund to be debited with a sum of £666, representing the increased cost of renewal of three 10-ton brake vans, and

(3)   A sum of £200, representing the difference between the cost of three 10-ton vans at present prices and the cost in 1913, to be provided out of “Government Compensation under Section 11 of the Railways Act 1921 Account” and credited to the Depreciation Fund.

The Accountants also recommended that a sum of £750 be set aside annually for replacement of Brake Vans and Peat Wagons.

It was agreed that the recommendations be approved.

 

As far as I can see, no use was made of the £750 a year set aside, no further renewal of the stock of brake vans or the 14 old peat wagons during the remaining four years of the S&DJR's independent rolling stock fleet.

[03060]

... And I thought that this level of 'micro management' was a thing of the computer age !

 

Regards,

Ian.

[Compound2632]

I've gone right back to the beginning of the rolling stock history on my last couple of visits to Kew, looking up the Board minute books of the Somerset Central Railway [TNA RAIL 628/3 and /4] and Somerset & Dorset Railway [TNA RAIL 627/2 and /3].

 

The first stock was ordered on 1 February 1861:

• 4 firsts, 5 composites, and 4 thirds from John Perry & Sons, Bristol.
• 8 seconds and 4 luggage break vans from Joseph Wright 7 Sons, Birmingham.

This was followed on 1 March 1861 with:

• 4 horse boxes and 6 carriage trucks from Wright.
• 30 highsided and 40 lowsided goods wagons and 6 pairs of timber trucks from Rowland Brotherhood, Cheltenham.

Then on 21 April 1862, 30 wagons from the Western Wagon Co., on monthly payments over 15 years, with the option to increase the number to 60.

 

On 22 August 1862:

• 4 firsts, 3 composites, 8 seconds, and 2 thirds from Wright. 

and on 4 October 1862:

• 2 horse boxes, 4 carriage trucks, 30 highsided wagons, and 6 pairs of timber trucks, all from the Metropolitan Carriage and Wagon Company, as Joseph Wright and Sons had become.

Following this, there were numerous orders for goods wagons, from the Western Waggon Co., Bristol & West of England Wagon Co., and Shackleford & Co., Cheltenham, all with deferred payment over 10 or 15 years. An order placed with Shackleford on 29 March 1865 included more passenger carriages and also makes the first mention of cattle wagons:

• 4 first, 2 composites, 9 thirds, 25 cattle wagons, and 50 lowsided wagons.

More wagons continued to be ordered up to 30 May 1865, when 100 coal wagons were ordered from the Birmingham Wagon Co. 

 

Then in mid-1866 the S&D was bankrupt and receivers were appointed. All the rolling stock was assigned to trustees "for the benefit of all creditors of the company other than mortgage creditors". As I understand it, this prevented creditors from seizing rolling stock and so enabled the railway to continue to function.

 

The total rolling stock at this point would appear to have been:

• 12 first class carriages
• 10 composite carriages
• 16 second class carriages
• 15 third class carriages
• 4 luggage break vans
• 6 horse boxes
• 10 carriage trucks
• 835 goods wagons, including 25 cattle wagons.

The is no mention in the minutes of goods break vans.

 

To be continued...

Edited December 17, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

To be continued, that is, once I've looked at the half-yearly reports of the SCR and SDR [TNA RAIL 1110/416] which will provide rolling stock totals for the period 1862-1876, which I've realised is the data I'm missing. During this period the usual format is to list coaching stock by type and from 1868 wagons by type, though with goods brake vans counted separately throughout the period. This should enable the charts posted previously to be extended back to 1862.

 

That'll be in the New Year now!

 

[wagonman]

Erm... Rowland Brotherhood was based in Chippenham, not Cheltenham!

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, wagonman said:

Erm... Rowland Brotherhood was based in Chippenham, not Cheltenham!

 

Yes, that's what my transcript of the minutes says! Cheltenham is just my error.

[Compound2632]

I've had a look at TNA RAIL 1110/416, which is a fragile volume, roughly A5 in size (what's that? - octavo?) and about 4 inches thick, into which are bound the half-yearly reports and accounts of the Dorset Central Railway, the Somerset Central Railway, and the Somerset and Dorset Railway, mostly in such a way as they have to be carefully folded out. I was only interested in the reports of the latter two companies, from 1861 to 1875, as this was the period when rolling stock was owned. 

 

There is a continuous run of reports from 31 December 1868, which have a Return of Working Stock in the standard format introduced in that year, and giving data back to 30 June 1868, since the Return always provides the numbers for the previous reporting date, to highlight changes over the six-month period.

 

Prior to 1868, there are some reports missing but fortunately, the periods when there are stock changes are there, mostly. Reporting of number of wagons is not broken down by type as it is from 1868 onwards.

 

Taking only the passenger stock for now, the first return of rolling stock is in the 31 December 1862 report, showing 4 firsts, 5 composites, 8 seconds, 4 thirds, 4 horse boxes, 6 carriage trucks, and 4 passenger brake vans, corresponding to the stock ordered from Perry and Wright in February and March 1861.

 

By 30 June 1863, the numbers were 8 firsts, 10 composites, 16 seconds, 6 thirds, 6 horse boxes, 10 carriage trucks, and 4 passenger brake vans. This corresponds to the additional stock ordered from Wright in August and October 1862. (However, my notes from the minutes say 3 additional composites, so I need to double-check if that is my transcription error.)

 

The next change to the passenger-carrying stock comes in the six month period to 31 December 1865, with the addition of 4 firsts, 2 composites, and 9 thirds, corresponding to the order placed with Shackleford in March 1865.

 

There's a bit of a mystery with passenger brake vans, with two more appearing in the 31 December 1864 report and 6 more at 31 December 1866 - I haven't found any reference to orders for these in the minutes. However, whereas usually the half-yearly report contains a simple statement that the company's locomotives and rolling stock had been maintained in good order, in the report for the six months to 31 December 1865, Robert Andrews is positively gushing; as well as reporting the new passenger carriages, he mentions six brake vans then in course of construction. 

 

This stock of 12 firsts, 12 composites, 16 seconds, 15 thirds, 6 horse boxes, 10 carriage trucks, and 12 passenger brake vans remained unchanged until 1874, when, with the railway out of Chancery and opening its Bath extension, there was evidently a need for more stock, which took the form of 7 additional composites and 6 horse boxes, acquired in the six months to 31 December 1874, and, in the previous six-month period, 18 brake vans, which appear to have been goods brake vans, though itemised under coaching stock, as will be discussed below.

 

Thus, the totals in the last S&DR half-yearly report to include a Return of Working Stock, that for 30 June 1875, are: 12 firsts, 19 composites, 16 seconds, 15 thirds, 12 horseboxes, 10 carriage trucks, and 30 brake vans, a total of 114 vehicles, or 96 coaching stock vehicles and 18 goods brakes. It seems clear from Johnson's October 1885 report, which gives the proportion of each type that was then over 20 years old, that no passenger stock renewals had taken place.

 

There was apparently a hiatus in reporting for the first two years of the Joint Committee - the Committee's reports and accounts are not bound into RAIL 1110/418 with those from 30 April 1878 onwards, so the earliest S&DJR stock totals are those for 31 October 1877: 12 firsts, 25 composites, 12 seconds, 33 thirds, 12 horse boxes, 10 carriage trucks, and 16 passenger brake vans, along with 24 goods brake vans. This includes the 6 composites, 10 thirds, 4 third brakes, and 4 passenger brake vans bought from the Midland in June 1877 and 6 goods brake vans ordered from the Bristol Wagon Works in October 1876. This gives a total of 120 coaching stock vehicles.

 

Thus the 96 ex-S&DR coaching stock vehicles comprised, in 1877, 12 firsts, 19 composites, 12 seconds, 19 thirds, 12 horse boxes, 10 carriage trucks, and 12 passenger brake vans, of which all but 7 composites and 6 horseboxes dated from 1862 - 1865. It would appear from comparison of this with the 30 June 1875 return of stock that four seconds had been downgraded to third in the first couple of years of Joint Committee control.

 

Johnson's 1885 report shows 7 firsts, 7 composites, 11 seconds, 25 thirds, 2 horse boxes, 4 carriage trucks, and 4 passenger brake vans over 20 years old, a total of 60 vehicles. He reports that 52 vehicles had been renewed since 1875, leaving a balance of 8 vehicles dating from 1865-1875 still in stock.

 

That the number of thirds over 20 years old exceeds the number inherited from the S&DR indicates that some, probably all, of the 14 thirds and brake thirds bought from the Midland in 1877 were built no more recently than 1865; the same probably goes for the six ex-Midland composites. It would appear that in the first decade of the Joint Committee, 5 firsts, 5 composites, 1 second, 8 thirds, 4 horse boxes, 6 carriage trucks, and 8 passenger brake vans had been built as renewals of vehicles dating from 1861-1865, a total of 37 vehicles, and a further 15 newer vehicles had been renewed including most of the composites and horse boxes of 1874 and possibly some or all of the ex-Midland passenger brake vans, dating from 1874/5.

Edited January 12 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Carriage brakes. For some years, the S&DR / S&DJR made use of Clarke's patent chain brake, as most infamously used by the L&NWR. Officers' Committee minute 130 of 10 February 1876:

 

"In reply to an enquiry by Mr. Fisher as to the fitting of Wilkin and Clarke’s Brake on the rest of the Coaching Stock, he was instructed to provide sufficient brake power for the trains, but to defer doing any new work beyond this until further orders." [TNA RAIL 626/16]

 

I'm sure anyone who has been line managed will sympathise with Mr. Fisher: responsibility without power.

 

The chain brake is mentioned in a number of Board of Trade Accident Reports. There it is generally referred to as Clake and Webb's patent brake. The earliest mention is in the report on an accident at Shapwick on 5 May 1877, where the 5pm passenger train from Burnham to Templecombe was made up of a milk truck, two third class, a first class, a composite, and a brake van. It's not entirely clear how many vehicles the chain brake was acting on.

 

On 8 December 1881, a Bath to Bournemouth "fast" passenger train, hauled by an Avonside 0-4-4T, was derailed neat Wimbourne owing to the negligence of the permanent way staff working on the line. The train was made up of a brake van, five passenger carriages, and another brake van. The rear brake van was fitted with the chain brake, acting on the four rear passenger carriages. On 2 March 1882, there was a head-on collision between Midsomer Norton and Chilcompton, involving a Bath to Bournemouth passenger train and a light engine, 0-6-0ST No. 8. returning from banking a goods train up to Masbury summit. The train, hauled buy0-4-4T No. 32, consisted of four carriages and a van, with the chain brake controlled from the engine and the brake van. (The leading vehicle, third class carriage No. 10, had its underframe damaged but its body was unharmed.) 

 

A fly-shunting manoeuvre went wrong at Bournemouth West on 10 December 1883, with minor damage to composite No. 3, third No. 4, and brake van No. 9, all supposedly under the control of the chain brake worked from the van, and also three Midland vehicles, a bogie composite No. 737, composite No. 707, and brake van No. 13.

 

The final reference to the chain brake is in the report on another head-on collision, at Binegar on 31 July 1885, between a Bournemouth to Bath passenger train headed by 0-4-4T No. 53 and a goods train from Bath headed by 0-6-0 No. 48. The passenger train was formed of a brake va that was completely broken up, a third that was badly damaged, a first/second composite that ran underneath the third, another first/second composite, a third, a first/third composite, and a brake van. Both brake vans were fitted with the chain brake, which was also acting on the first three passenger carriages.

 

Meanwhile, in April 1883, Officers' minute 1883 marked the first step towards equipping S&DJR coaching stock with the automatic vacuum brake - though initially only through pipes to enable stock to work in vacuum-braked trains:

 

"It was explained that the horse boxes and carriage trucks of the Committee were frequently sent off the Somerset and Dorset Railway, and that in consequence it was desirable to fit them with pipes, so that the continuous brake communications upon the Midland Co’s trains may not be interrupted when the vehicles are running on their Railway. Agreed that the vehicles be so fitted."

 

Then in January 1884, Officers' minute No. 2004 recorded that "It was agreed that the automatic vacuum brakes complete be fixed on the six carriages running through via the Midland Railway."

 

I've looked in vain through the Officers' minutes up to 1897 and the Joint Committee minutes throughout for reference to fitting the whole of the coaching stock with the automatic vacuum brake, which is surprising since it would have involved expenditure. I would presume this was done no later than 1890, to comply with the Regulation of Railways Act, 1889.

[Compound2632]

It was good to meet @RobAllen at the Midland Railway Society meeting at Kettering today, and also Peter Trenchard. Peter was involved in the restoration of S&DJR first No.4 and has also closely inspected the two surviving third class bodies in the hands of the SDRT and now at Shillingstone, Nos. 98 and 114. I mentioned my renumbering theory, which would have these carriages originally Nos. 9 and  25 in the third class list. Disappointingly, he said he had found no evidence of earlier numbers.

 

We had some discussion of S&DJR carriages working north of Bath and in particular, this photo taken at Gloucester:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 88-PAL-119, a print from Locomotive Publishing Co. negative No. 7685.]

 

A painting based on this photo is reproduced in the Midland section of Nigel Digby's livery register books; there, all the carriages are coloured red. Peter pointed out that the brake van in the centre of the photo, behind the 2-4-0, is an arc-roof 6-wheeler with duckets - not corresponding to any Midland vehicle but apparently an S&DJR brake. So the question was, are there any other S&DJR carriages in the train?

 

Here's a crop from a high-res scan of the photo:

 

 

Only the second carriage is visible, owing to the curve of the platform. Looking at the door hinges, it appears to be a centre-luggage composite. Looking at the eves panels, it seems to me that the luggage doors don't have ventilator hoods; this is enough to distinguish this as an S&DJR luggage composite rather than the Midland D516 type. The brake van has the shallow 10 ft radius roof with which Highbridge persisted long after Derby had gone over to 8 ft radius, giving 32 greater height, c. 1880. I'm trying to decide whether I believe the roof of this composite has the same curvature as the brake; it's a bit confused by the prominent torpedo ventilators.

 

Despite the generally 19th century air of the photo, it's after early 1903, as the engines are all without the lamp iron formerly fitted near the top of the smokebox door. These had been rendered superfluous by the adoption of RCH standard headcodes on 1 February 1903 and appear to have been removed rather quickly. It also looks to me as though the tender of the 2-4-0 is only lined on the beading, without the lining on the panels; that suggests, I think, a date after 1905 but probably before the 1907 renumbering.  

[RobAllen]

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

It was good to meet @RobAllen at the Midland Railway Society meeting at Kettering today

Likewise. I very much enjoyed both talks too. Sorry I had to duck out afterwards; I had a train to catch, which was subsequently late…

 

53 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Only the second carriage is visible

Photographers just didn’t take photos of the interesting bits of the train!