A typical S&DJR train, c. 1902?

[down the sdjr]

I think i have found another picture of this location by Ivo in Somerset and Dorset in the sixties part 3 1960 to 1962 picture 73 looking Northbound on the Milldown.

[Compound2632]

Back from holiday and the Stephen Austin book has arrived. The photo discussed in my OP is reproduced on p. 19, apparently uncropped - showing more of the surroundings; the line is clearly cut as a shelf in the hillside. The caption confirms Mill Down.

 

I'm not disappointed in this book - a good few interesting views of late 19th/early 20th century trains, which I'm already starting to analyse, picking out the red from the blue! As one might expect, captions are full of locomotive information but sketchy on rolling stock. There are a couple of carriage howlers I've noticed:

 

p. 58, a four coach train hauled by 4559, sometime in the 30s. This purports to show Highbridge-built bogie stock and the first carriage is certainly one of the sixteen 46 ft 3-compartment brake thirds but the following three carriages look longer, have end lavatory compartments (a sure indicator of being gangwayed side-corridor vehicles), 4 compartments to the brake thirds and rather more restrained duckets than the flamboyant Highbridge style. I'm no expert on on Southern carriages but I suspect this to be a three-coach set of LSWR origin, probably 56 ft stock?

 

p. 54, the Wells branch motor train in 1950. The carriage is said to be S&D, presumbably on account of its roof profile. The engine, No. 58046, looks very smart in BR's version of LNWR livery, so it's appropriate that the carriage is in fact also a LNWR vehicle, as the distinctive panelling style betrays - almost certainly one of the D338 50 ft vehicles of 1904-7 converted to a driving trailer as diagram M71. The last of these were withdrawn in early 1955. [Ref. D . Jenkinson, LNWR Carriages (2nd edition, 1995), appendices I & III and plate 208]. These carriages had the LNWR's "cove" roof profile, based on the same three-arc principle as the LSWR/Highbridge roof but differently proportioned - flatter, and a tighter radius at the eves. 

 

I've banged on often enough about how rare the prototypes of the Airfix/Dapol LMS Period 2 lavatory non-corridor carriages were - only 25 of each diagram D1736 (lavatory composite) and D1737 (lavatory brake third) built, in 1930. So I'm gently nibbling my headgear in response to the 1954 photo on p. 51, taken at Highbridge, showing 58086 hauling one of those Southern bogie utility vans (pardon my ignorance) and a composite/brake third pair of these carriages - both appear to be flush-sided Preiod 2 vehicles rather than panelled Period 1 vehicles. In accordance with LMS/LMR orthodoxy, the brake third is marshalled with its brake compartment to the centre of the train. So, modellers of the S&DJR in the 50s, you have my blessing (in the unlikely event you should feel in need of it) to use the Dapol carriages for your two-coach branch set!

[03060]

Hello Compound,

 

Glad that you're not disappointed with your purchase.

 

Very interested in your identification of the above coaches, even to my untrained eye (no pun intended) I could see the differences between the 1st coach and the other 3 coaches on p.58, although I suppose it depends how much you read into the caption. Any thoughts as to what livery the S&D coach is carrying, the photo having been taken in the 1930's ? The ex.LSWR coaches look to me to be in a dark olive green so I'm thinking that the S&D coach would be still in blue but with Southern branding, although I can't see anything other than the door Class numbers and what could be the 'new'  coach number between the 2nd and 3rd compartments.

 

There is also, I presume, a wrongly stated comment regarding the "ancient S&D coach" mentioned in the caption for the picture at the top of p.37, going by the date, roof rainstrips and coach length ?

 

Regards,

Ian.

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, 03060 said:

 

There is also, I presume, a wrongly stated comment regarding the "ancient S&D coach" mentioned in the caption for the picture at the top of p.37, going by the date, roof rainstrips and coach length ?

 

 

Good spot! A seven compartment non-corridor carriage with two lavatory compartments: T/T/Lv/T/T/T/Lv/T/T, with a high arc roof. Reference to R. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986), pp. 226-229, suggests that this either one of the 30 carriages built as Lot 848, diagram D1060, or the 20 of Lot 850, D1053, all 50 ft carriages completed in 1916, originally intended as excursion sets (with matching brake thirds). D1060 were 9'0" wide; D1053, 8'6". Most were withdrawn in 1955/6, with the last to go in 1958. 

 

Presumably they were very desperate for strengtheners when the Pines rolled into New Street that day - was this carriage found lurking at the back of Saltley carriage sidings?

 

As to the brake third on p. 58, I'd go with blue. It has the 3s on the compartment doors. Again, pardon my Southern ignorance but didn't Maunsell's carriage livery retain THIRD in the waist panel? The digit on the lower door panel is a late Midland/LMS thing - did the S&DJR adopt it before 1930? 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

It's too hot for modelling so I've been sitting in a shady corner surrounded by a pile of books. Here's the fruit of my idleness:

 

I’ve been peering very closely at the lovely photos of S&DJR trains of the 1890s and early 1900s in S. Austin, Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway – A View from the Past (Ian Allan, 1999). There are some very interesting, and one quite unusual, trains there. Before I offer my analysis of them, I should first, apologise to anyone reading this who hasn’t got a copy of the book open in front of them, as it’s going to be meaningless. I also want to summarise what I’ve gleaned about the design of S&DJR carriages of this period, highlighting the features that aid identification of carriage types in the photos. For Midland carriages, my reference is R. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986); I also refer again to R. Garner’s Registers cited above.

 

T.G. Clayton took up the position of Carriage & Wagon Superintendent of the Midland Railway on 1 July 1873, having previously been at Swindon. In this position he presumably had responsibility for the S&DJR’s carriage and wagon stock from 1 November 1875, just as S.W. Johnson had responsibility for locomotives. It seems that, just as S.W. Johnson allowed his subordinates at Highbridge considerable leeway to depart from strict Derby norms, so Clayton’s unknown deputy had freedom to adapt the Derby style to suit local conditions – most notably the continued need to provide second class accommodation up to 1 July 1893.

 

Clayton introduced a uniform style to Midland carriages, which seems to have been adopted for all new construction at Highbridge. After some initial adjustments, his round-cornered panelling style remained consistent in its dimensions for over 20 years at Derby, and, as far as I can work out, at Highbridge beyond that, right up to the last bogie carriages built just before the Great War. Clayton’s earliest carriages had an arc roof of 10 ft radius, giving an internal height of 7 ft 1 in, but from 1878 this was changed to 8 ft, giving 7 ft 4 in internal height. Highbridge seems to have persisted with the lower roof for some years longer, although the third class carriages built by Oldbury and Cravens in the early 1890s definitely had the higher roof, the all-thirds being indistinguishable from the equivalent Midland vehicles to D493. One might think that the contract drawings came straight from Derby, were it not that the Cravens brake thirds sported a distinctive style of guard’s lookout or ducket that seems to have been a home-grown Highbridge design, used also on the 6-wheel brake vans and, in modified form, on the bogie brake carriages and the 6-wheel brakes built with the same high three-arc roof. It seems to have originated with the 4-wheel brake vans, which uniquely among S&DJR vehicles, had them at the very end of the carriage body, so that the end elevation followed the shape of the ducket, with large end windows [Austin p. 69, top]. In contrast to the ducket used on the Midland’s D529 4-wheel brake vans, which turned under in a simple quarter-circle curve below the waist panel, the Highbridge ducket extended down in a reverse curve right to the bottom of the lower panel – much in the style used by the Great Western.

 

Other Highbridge carriages played fast-and-loose with standard Derby designs – notably the luggage composites; superficially Midland D516 but with equal-with double doors to the luggage compartment, which was only 3 ft 7 in between partitions. The Midland vehicles used a standard 2 ft wide door for the left side, with the non-standard right hand door being noticeably narrower. These composites, like the 6-wheel brake vans and the shorter 4-compartment composites, seem all (or at least mostly) to have had the lower roof. The Cravens brake thirds mentioned above are unlike any echt Midland vehicle; likewise the picnic saloons, whilst immediately recognisable as in the Derby style, are quite different to their Midland D465 equivalents.

 

In the OP I mentioned the four Midland 4-wheel brake vans sold to the S&DJR in 1877; these were from the early contractor-built vehicles and had the lower arc roof, whereas the Derby-built vehicles to D529 had the higher roof. Vans of this type figure in many of the photos; the roof height generally marks them out as Midland vehicles – I think it’s unlikely that the 1877 ones survived to the end of the century, at least in their original form. Garner is unable to place them in his stock list.

 

To the trains. Firstly, some examples of what I think are typical S&DJR formations of the period, starting with a post-1905 photo of No. 15 with a six-coach train of 6-wheelers, descending from Parkstone to Poole [Austin, p. 28 lower]. This shot was taken with the camera at about footplate level, so the carriage roof height variation isn’t evident. The train is made up of a brake van, 5 compartment third, 4 compartment first or composite, another 5 compartment third, a second brake van, this time one of the 20th century ones with three-arc high roof, and bring up the rear a Midland D530 square-panelled clerestory brake van. The five-coach set, two brakes flanking a pair of thirds with a first or composite in the middle, appears several times, suggesting it was a standard set. It can be seen at Radstock [p. 38] behind a 0-4-4T. This photo was taken from the footbridge, so the variation in roof profile can be seen. This time the leading brake has the 3-arc high roof. It’s clear that the thirds have the higher arc roof and the first (or composite) and the second brake have the low arc roof. The thirds are not identical – the leading one has a single curved rainstrip above the eaves; the further one has a second rainstrip higher up the roof – as did the Midland vehicles. I’m speculating that that’s an Oldbury or Cravens vehicle whereas the one with a single rainstrip is a Highbridge-built example. At the rear of the train is a bogie carriage with the three-arc roof – I think it is one of the 7-compartment thirds, with the luggage compartment leading – and another 6-wheel brake van with low arc roof. So this is a purely S&DJR train at last! The basic five-coach formation can be seen again behind an unidentified 4-4-0 approaching Mill Down in a photo dated 1898 [p. 71 upper]. At this date, both of the 6-wheel brake vans are of the low arc roof variety. At the head of the train is a pair of Midland D529 4-wheel brake vans – their roof profile matches the third class carriage and is noticeably higher than the 6-wheel brake’s. This photo has much in common with the photo discussed in the OP, though taken at a different but nearby location – the same photographer, though perhaps not the same day?

 

A variation on this “standard” formation can be seen behind No. 15 – not a camera-shy engine – near Charlton on the Hill, c. 1900 [p. 13 lower]. The first five carriages are 6-wheelers: brake; third; for variety, a centre-luggage composite; third; another centre-luggage composite; and bringing up the rear, a Highbridge 4-wheel brake with the ducket end leading. The thirds have high arc roofs, the rest low arc. Charlton on the Hill is just south of Blandford; I suspect we’re seeing the same photographer’s work again. He likes these well-composed ¾ angle views of trains. I think my next photo is his, too: 0-6-0 No. 63 heading south from Blandford c. 1898 [p. 77 lower]. This photo is also well worth comparing with the one in the OP, as it includes some rather grand Midland vehicles. At the front of the train, there are a couple of S&DJR 6-wheelers with low arc roofs, the usual brake and a centre-luggage composite. Next is a 5-compartment third; as in the OP, there’s no way of deciding if it’s blue or red – it has the upper rainstrip. Next comes that most ubiquitous yet stately of Midland clerestories, a D508 48ft lavatory brake composite – the ultimate manifestation of the reach of the Midland Railway, the through coach to everywhere. This one must be brand new, if the date of the photo is reliable. It’s got the slightly reduced clerestory height and absence of duckets (just side lamps) which suggests it was completed late 1898 at the earliest. Behind this comes a 12-wheeler – one of the 54ft arc-roofed luggage composites to D507, 25 of which were built in 1886. As built, these were laid out Lg/T/T/F/F/F/T/T. In 1892, twenty were altered to lavatory composites. Lacy & Dow illustrate No. 279 with the first class compartment furthest from the luggage compartment converted; I think the one in this train has the alternative arrangement, with the first class compartment nearest the luggage compartment converted. A Midland D529 4-wheel brake brings up the rear. Compared with the OP photo, we have a Midland through portion with lavatory accommodation for both classes, in some compartments, and a mix of reasonably up-to-date arc roofed carriages plus a solitary example of the latest clerestory stock – but this time with some first class seats.

 

The last train I’m looking at is the real oddball [p. 77 upper]. Also near Blandford but not quite as sharp as the other photos and also for once showing the left-hand side of a train! A different photographer, or just a bad day? No. 62 on a cavalcade of fifteen assorted vehicles. I’m going to start with the fifth: a 6-wheeler with six ventilators in the eaves panels and an odd roof – for much of its length it is raised up above the usual arc roof profile, although it conforms to that at the ends. This feature marks it out as a Midland 32ft family sleeping carriage to D458, seven of which were built in 1884, with one being assigned to the Midland’s Scottish ally, the Glasgow & South Western. The four vehicles in front of this all have the high arc profile – a D529 4-wheel brake leads. The second and third vehicles are also 4-wheelers, with slatted panels; they seem a bit shorter than the 25ft brake van. The arrangement of doors and slatted panels doesn’t match the S&DJR milk van illustrated by Garner [p. 4]; in fact they match the Midland’s 20ft 5 ton milk vans, D416. The fourth carriage looks at first sight to be the usual 5-compartment third but after peering at it for a while, looking at the spacing of the ventilators and the position of the lamps on the roof, I’ve convinced myself it’s a centre-luggage composite with the luggage compartment converted to lavatories. The Midland carried out this operation on a number of D516 composites in 1892. I’ve not seen any suggestion that any S&DJR composites were modified thus (and anyway this vehicle has the higher arc roof) but all the similar composites of the Midland Scotch Joint Stock had been altered by 1894.

 

The seventh carriage is another arc-roof 6-wheeler but unfortunately a strategically-placed telegraph pole hinders identification. Next come four Midland covered carriage trucks, with their characteristic roof profile to the limit of the loading gauge. Midland CCTs at this period came in four varieties, D402/3/6/7, covering the combinations of 20ft and 25ft length and 13ft 3in or 12ft 8in high, the latter to clear the Metropolitan Railway’s more restricted loading gauge. I wouldn’t like to say what length the ones in the photo are but the first one is to the lower height. Next come three horseboxes, all straight sided; they could be Midland or S&DJR, and bringing up the rear, another D529 brake.

 

Now, the sixth carriage: another 6-wheeler but otherwise quite unlike anything else in the train. Its roof has a three-arc profile but is quite flat at the centre. The lower stepboard is much higher than on the other vehicles. Its body panelling is very different, higher waisted and with a lighter band along the top – possibly a continuous ventilator or row of ventilators? It says North British to me – a family saloon of some sort.

 

So, a Midland family sleeping carriage, a North British family saloon, a lavatory composite that could just be MSJS, CCTs, horseboxes… Would the date just happen to be early August, a day or two before the twelfth? What aristocrat is transplanting his establishment from his Dorset seat to the Scottish highlands for the grouse season? And why does he need so much milk? I suspect the milk vans have been drafted in as ersatz luggage vans!

Edited August 26, 2019 by Compound2632

[bécasse]

A couple of general comments.

 

Firstly, in most railway workshops (at Eastleigh, for example) drawings weren't used on the shop floor. The foreman was told what was required and what material would be provided and construction went on from there. The men on the shop floor would have their own trade practices (learnt when they were apprentices) and one of the most important of these was that the job was always done the easiest way. That probably explains, for example, the differences between the MR and SDJR luggage doors, at Highbridge, with only a few to build, it was probably easier to make two equal width doors, whereas at Derby, where large numbers of standard width doors would have been on hand, it was probably easier to take one standard width door and then make the second to the non-standard width.

 

Secondly, it is important to remember that old photos don't necessarily show typical workings. Before (perhaps) 1960, most amateur railway photographs showing general working were taken on Saturday afternoons (or on Mondays by clergymen!), and while Saturday timetables were often very similar to those for Mondays to Fridays, the traffic working wasn't.

[Compound2632]

58 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Firstly, in most railway workshops (at Eastleigh, for example) drawings weren't used on the shop floor. The foreman was told what was required and what material would be provided and construction went on from there. The men on the shop floor would have their own trade practices (learnt when they were apprentices) and one of the most important of these was that the job was always done the easiest way. That probably explains, for example, the differences between the MR and SDJR luggage doors, at Highbridge, with only a few to build, it was probably easier to make two equal width doors, whereas at Derby, where large numbers of standard width doors would have been on hand, it was probably easier to take one standard width door and then make the second to the non-standard width.

 

 

I've wondered about how the Derby "style" was transmitted to Highbridge - whether it was purely by means of drawings, perhaps coupled with conversations between Clayton and his drawing office staff and his Highbridge carriage superintendent, or whether Derby supplied jigs, patterns, and templates? Clayton's Midland carriages were designed to a rigid set of standard dimensions - compartment widths, etc. - to the extent that it was handy to include a luggage or brake compartment to absorb the odd quarters of an inch when the standard dimensions didn't add up to a standard carriage length! The Litchurch Lane works must have had lots of standard sub-units, such as doors as you say. But at Highbridge, building a handful of carriages a year, it could well have been easier to take a "modeller's" approach and build components as and when needed.

 

58 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Secondly, it is important to remember that old photos don't necessarily show typical workings. Before (perhaps) 1960, most amateur railway photographs showing general working were taken on Saturday afternoons (or on Mondays by clergymen!), and while Saturday timetables were often very similar to those for Mondays to Fridays, the traffic working wasn't.

 

Indeed, that was the point of my OP - what looks at first glance to be a typical blue train turns out to be more than half red. The unusual always has greater appeal than the usual. One can get as false an impression of the mundane weekday traffic on the S&DJR from these photos as one can from an Ivo Peters shot of a 2P and a Bulleid pacific with 13 on, on a summer Saturday in 1958.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

I'd overlooked the train at Spetisbury c. 1895 [Austin p. 90 upper] - this is also in the gallery @down the sdjr linked to and I commented on it briefly then. The reproduction in the book is rather shaper. This is yet another example of the brake/third/compo (or first)/third/brake formation. Both thirds have the upper rainstrip. The leading brake of this set (the second vehicle in the train) is one of the Highbridge 4-wheelers with end duckets; the one at the rear is a 6-wheeler. The first vehicle is a Midland D529 4-wheel brake. We see rather a lot of these - are they carrying through parcels traffic from the north, avoiding transhipment at Bath, or are they on loan to the S&DJR?

 

Also on the web gallery is a train departing from Spetisbury in the opposite direction, also behind a 0-4-4T. This claims to be c. 1900 but since there's just a single line but fresh earthworks for doubling, I suspect it was taken around the same time as the previous photo, possibly the same day. There's a lot of steam about, which doesn't help identification, but I think this shows the usual five-coach set - this time with a 6-wheel brake at each end - strengthened with an extra third.

 

Moving forward a few decades, there's an interesting carriage in several photos of the Pines Express in the 30s - the first vehicle at p. 37 centre, p. 46 lower (1938), possibly p. 48 upper (1936), p. 75 upper (but the other way round to usual), and the second vehicle at p. 105 upper (1938). It has six large picture widows, with a lavatory compartment part way down (with an external door on the corridor side) and a short brake end. It seems to be a D1720 corridor brake composite - 50 built at Wolverton in 1930. According to R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969), these were among the first Period 2 coaches. Period 2 is chiefly marked by a move from wood to steel panelling, and hence the absence of beading, but these were among the last wood-panelled carriages. They were rebuilt in the 40s with steel panelling and "Stanier" or Period 3 styling but in that guise remained distinctive by virtue of the long rainstrips on their canvas-covered roofs. Essery and Jenkinson note that eight of them were built without duckets for the Sunny South Express - limited clearance somewhere on the Brighton line I suppose. I think the second vehicle at p. 37 centre must be one of those eight.

 

The version of the Pines Express c. 1928 at p. 73 centre has at its head a pair of the Period 1 equivalent of D1720, D1755 (45 built at Wolverton in 1927/8), marshalled with the non-brake ends together. Next comes a Bain-era round-panelled clerestory dining carriage. This seems to be on 4-wheel bogies; that together with the proportions of the dining saloon (leading) and kitchen (trailing) convince me that it's one of the 59ft first class kitchen diners, eight of which were built in 1907, Midland diagram D436 [R. Lacy and G. Dow, op. cit. pp. 215-216]. The fourth vehicle only has end doors, I suspect it's a Period 1 open third used for dining. The caption talks of "two S&D coaches tacked on the back" which I doubt. The fifth vehicle is narrow but arc-roofed - almost certainly an ex-LNWR 50ft corridor carriage of 1902-ish; they're not unusual in secondary expresses on the Midland division in the 20s. I pass on the last vehicle!

 

Whilst on howlers, there's an particularly egregious one, p. 30 upper, where the leading LNER full brake is identified as Great Western! The middle two carriages are also full brakes - not brake composites - leading, a wood panelled Period 1 vehicle, then, I think, one of the steel-panelled ones also built in the 20s; the three short rainstrips are distinctive. The trailing carriage is a Period 1 non-corridor third - the ventilators are all on the roof centreline. This train is running into Bournemouth behind 53803 in 1954; it's presumably a parcels train with the third being an ECS working.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Compound2632

[RailWest]

>>>I'd overlooked the train at Spetisbury c. 1895 [Austin p. 90 upper]

 

>>>Also on the web gallery is a train departing from Spetisbury in the opposite direction, also behind a 0-4-4T. This claims to be c. 1900  but since there's just a single line but fresh earthworks for doubling, I suspect it was taken around the same time as the previous photo, possibly the same day. 

 

You may well be right about them being taken on the same day, or about the same time, BUT...any discrepancy with the date is with the FIRST image, which is clearly while doubling work is in progress and therefore much later than 1895 - the Spetisbury website quotes 1899/1900.

Edited August 27, 2019 by RailWest

[down the sdjr]

I know next to nothing about the early days of the S&D and i find these posts fascinating , thank you. To think that 120+ years ago you could get from Spetisbury to Templecombe quicker than you could today shows how we have gone backwards in many ways.

 

You have probably all seen it but there is a photo of a train on the Shillingstone station page from 1898.

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, down the sdjr said:

To think that 120+ years ago you could get from Spetisbury to Templecombe quicker than you could today shows how we have gone backwards in many ways.

 

 

Well, yes, but only at infrequent intervals - five or six set times a day? And you would have to walk to and from your starting and finishing points. Modern living seems unable to cope with such restrictions.

 

17 minutes ago, down the sdjr said:

You have probably all seen it but there is a photo of a train on the Shillingstone station page from 1898.

 

The first one here? Too head-on to be able to draw any conclusions, I'm afraid.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Compound2632

[down the sdjr]

http://www.shillingstone-railway-project.org.uk/historic.php

 

Not good quality and you cannot see the stock but its the only photo i could think of in your time of interest.

[RailWest]

>>>>The first one here? Too head-on to be able to draw any conclusions, I'm afraid.

 

I wonder whence they got that date, as other previous publications of it have not been that precise. However IMHO it is at least after 1891, given the presence of the ground-frame hut in the background.

[03060]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The version of the Pines Express c. 1928 at p. 73 centre has at its head a pair of the Period 1 equivalent of D1720, D1755 (45 built at Wolverton in 1927/8), marshalled with the non-brake ends together. Next comes a Bain-era round-panelled clerestory dining carriage. This seems to be on 4-wheel bogies; that together with the proportions of the dining saloon (leading) and kitchen (trailing) convince me that it's one of the 59ft first class kitchen diners, eight of which were built in 1907, Midland diagram D436 [R. Lacy and G. Dow, op. cit. pp. 215-216]. The fourth vehicle only has end doors, I suspect it's a Period 1 open third used for dining. The caption talks of "two S&D coaches tacked on the back" which I doubt. The fifth vehicle is narrow but arc-roofed - almost certainly an ex-LNWR 50ft corridor carriage of 1902-ish; they're not unusual in secondary expresses on the Midland division in the 20s. I pass on the last vehicle!

 

Very useful info for me personally Compound, as I was only yesterday trying to work out possible coach diagrams for a 1920's 'Pines Express' in 3mm scale based on a table on p.70 of Stephen Austin's other book 'Portrait of the Pines Express' which gives examples of typical train formations.

He gives as a mid-week Pre-war example:

 

BCK-TK (Brad-Bmth)-BCK-RCO-RT-CK-TK-BTK (Man-Bmth)-BCK-TK (Lpl-Bmth)-BCK (Lpl-Sou)

 

On the previous page he mentions that the minimum would be a 7 coach train with one BCK being used for each of the portions from Bradford and Liverpool (the TK's being the strengtheners) and a 4 coach set from Manchester which could give a formation of possibly

 

BCK (Brad-Bmth)-BCK-RCO-RT-CK (Man-Bmth)-BCK (?)

 

.....Which almost fits your identifications !

 

 As we have previously mentioned regarding photographers mid-week occupations ....a Saturday working is likely "when there were no through coaches from Liverpool, their place being taken by further accommodation for Manchester, often using vestibule composites or thirds, to make up the full load, so that such a train had fewer brakes in it." (Which might help identify the last coach as a third or something else.)

 

Your information will help me to order some more appropriate kits from the Worsley Works lists although the 2 Bain clerestory kits I already have are for a CK and a TK, so may or may not be useful.

 

Many thanks,

Ian.

[Compound2632]

@03060, I'm sure you're familiar with Jerry Clifford's 2 mm scale Manchester Diner (pre-Pines) carriages - as exquisite as Faberge eggs - they're a bit further on than in this post, which I've picked because it gives the diagram numbers, though I believe he still hasn't screwed himself up to painting them. I think he's aiming for 1920, so all Midland vehicles. By 1927-30, on the basis of that one photo [Austin p. 73], the 59ft diner is the only Midland carriage left - but the train photos in this 1929 article show one or two more clerestories. The Templecombe picture shows a Bain clerestory brake composite leading - there were several versions but as we're looking at the corridor side and it seems to have the large windows, it could be D472. I think that's the same D436 diner, but the other way round - kitchen end leading, so third class dinners have to be carried through the first class saloon! (I doubt the menus were different.)

 

Although well outside my period, the Pines Express is of some interest to me as it was the only train of its class to traverse the Walsall-Water Orton (Sutton Park) line, summer Saturdays only, avoiding New Street.

[03060]

Thanks again Compound, the two lower photographs in the linked article appear in the "Portrait of the Pines" book.

 

A later 1920's formation would suit my needs so with a bit of the dreaded 'modellers licence' I am looking at MR and Periods 1 & 2 LMS stock kits but whilst there are quite a few in the range of Worsley Works, not all mentioned in this thread are available; by the way I hope I'm not hijacking your OP circa 1902 theme or leading it too far away ....but I for one am finding all of the information coming out from across all of the years very interesting.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, 03060 said:

I hope I'm not hijacking your OP circa 1902 theme or leading it too far away ....

 

Not at all. My real aim in this topic is to demonstrate how close reading of the photographic evidence can be used to challenge (or verify) received assumptions.

 

That, and trying to get topic in the S&DJR area that is actually about the S&DJR rather than the ex-Joint lines in the 1950s!

 

Another c. 1900 one: Austin p. 20 lower, Scottie No. 35 on a down train at Blandford. Although the photographer is in the six-foot, something can be seen of the train as the line curves. The leading brake is a D529, as, I think, is the penultimate vehicle - the sharp turn-under of the ducket is the clue. The signalman exchanging the tablet blocks the view but I think these are the only two brake vehicles in the train. Although the rest of the train looks to be made up of 6-wheelers - seven by my count between the two brakes plus one tacked on the rear - the absence of any Highbridge brakes makes me suspect that the whole train is Midland. Most of the carriages look to be thirds, apart from the one fourth from the end, which could be a luggage composite - there's a hint of blank panels. The preponderance of thirds and the suggestion that it's all Midland stock - and not of the grandest order - make me suspect an excursion from the Midlands. Another Saturday train? - the Scottie being released from goods train duties, quite apart from having the oomph for working a ten-coach train over the Mandips. Oomph but probably not much more than 00 mph either!

[RailWest]

>>>>My real aim in this topic is to demonstrate how close reading of the photographic evidence can be used to challenge (or verify) received assumptions....

 

A very good point - far too many caption writers get the wrong location or the wrong date or make inaccurate suggestions about what is supposedly happening. To be fair, they may be well-meaning and not in possession of as much information as is now available.

[down the sdjr]

Sorry to butt in again, but does anyone have any info on the 1st Blandford station that was in Blandford st Mary when the line ran to Wimbourne? I have been unable to find anything on the internet. If you guys dont know then i guess nobody does.

Edited August 28, 2019 by down the sdjr
butt

[Compound2632]

56 minutes ago, down the sdjr said:

Sorry to butt in again, but does anyone have any info on the 1st Blandford station that was in Blandford st Mary when the line ran to Wimbourne? I have been unable to find anything on the internet. If you guys dont know then i guess nobody does.

 

"... difficulty or expense involved in building this bridge [over the Stour] seems to have delayed the arrival of the Dorset Central in Blandford itself, for the original terminus of the line from Wimborne was a temporary building at Blandford St Mary a mile to the south, beside a lane that led to the downs: this was described [Sherbourne Journal, 8 Nov 1860] as 'unpretentious, and unsuitable for anything but the brief use which all Blandford residents must fervently wish'."

R. Atthill, The Somerset & Dorset Railway (David & Charles, 1967) p. 118.

 

Until the completion of the Templecombe - Blandford section in 1863, the Wimborne - Blandford St Mary section was worked by the South Western.

 

There's no evidence of the site of this station on the earliest OS 25" map on the NLS website, surveyed 1887.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Compound2632

[down the sdjr]

Thank you,

A mile to the south of Blandford? thats some distance, "a lane that led to the downs" im trying to think where that may be, close to the current bypass maybe?

I am really interested in where the 1st station may have been as i have never seen any record of it.

[Compound2632]

From Atthill's description, I suspect the lane is the one marked as Wards Drove on the modern 1:25000 map, at ST 889 052. There's a kink in the lane where it crosses the course of the railway. 

[down the sdjr]

Yes, i see that, on the part thats now long buried, makes sense. Thank you.

[Compound2632]

While I'm still on this rich seam of carriage spotting:

 

Austin p. 9 upper, Burnham on Sea 1895. Some more antique carriages than we've seen elsewhere. Nearest the camera, a third, No. 28. Garner lists No. 28 as a 4-wheel brake third, the number later being taken by a bogie composite built in 1913. The S&DJR crest is in the lower panel between the second and third compartments, suggesting a 4-compartment vehicle - similar to No. 103A in the Highbridge workmen's train [Garner p. 16]. It's possible that one of the end compartments serves as a brake compartment. Next, a 2-compartment brake third - but not one of the Cravens ones, Nos. 80-84, as this has double doors with droplights for the guard's compartment; the Cravens carriges have an ordinary single door and a fixed light, as if this was going to be an ordinary third class compartment until the ducket sprouted out on the other side of the door [photo: Garner p. 17]. This carriage also looks shorter on the far side of the ducket, so probably also 4-wheeler. Garner lists a 4-wheel, 2-compartment 25ft brake third No. 33 which might fit the bill. The third vehicle on view is a 4-wheel van of some sort, with two pairs of doors with droplights. It has non-standard (by Clayton/Highbridge standards) panelling - lower height to eves overall, narrow eves panels but deeper waist panels. The latter suggests LSWR to me. I don't have Weddell's LSWR Carriages volumes...

 

While on NPCS, Austin p. 14 (and front end-paper), Midsomer Norton, "1890s" - 0-4-4T, 6-wheel low arc roof brake, bogie lavatory composite with three-arc roof (so 1900 at the very earliest! - matches No. 36 - and later vehicles - luggage compt, 2 compts, lavatory...); the rest is wreathed in steam. But the leading vehicle is a CCT-is sort of high-roofed, outside-framed, 4-wheel van that is beyond my knowledge. There's no diagonal framing but a pair of doors in the centre that don't extend to the full height of the side. The roof is a single high arc, not the parabola-shape of Midland CCTs. LSWR again?

 

Photographs of goods trains out on the road are very rare at this early date, for the reasons discussed - expensive plates, Saturday photography. There's one photo that might be pre-Great War (i.e. pre wagon pooling), Austin p.18; Scottie No. 60 in post-1908 condition. The only identifiable vehicle is the second - one of the S&DJR road vans. Otherwise there's just the odd glimpse in photos where a locomotive is the main subject: p. 61 lower, 5-plank open wagon No. 344, one of the Highbridge clones of the standard Midland D299 wagon but with the variation of a sheet bar - per Garner's Registers. Wagons of this type (some with assorted non-Derby variations such as the sheet bar, or rounded ends) accounted for about half the S&DJR's wagon fleet. Here's one I made earlier:

 

 

- does now have wheels and couplings!

 

At p. 65 centre, three cattle wagons, two of Midland design and one LSWR. The S&DJR had examples of both, Midland-style ones built at Highbridge and LSWR ones built at Eastleigh. The one photo of a Midland-style one I've seen is in the pre-1905 style with just one bar across the opening at the top of the side [C.G. Maggs, Highbridge in its Hayday (Oakwood Press, 2nd edition 1986)] but these are the later style with two; so I think they're Midland vehicles. The photo is over-exposed (the loco is standing in shade, the wagons in the background in full sunlight) so lettering isn't visible...

 

There's a nice view of Radstock Coal Company 12 ton, 6-plank wagon No. 1568 behind 0-6-0ST No. 2, said to be "about the turn of the century", p. 62 lower. On the evidence of the wagon, the photo must be later - 12 ton PO wagons only really started to come in with the 1907 RCH specification, 10 tons or 8 tons capacity being the norm before then. I was rather pleased to have this confirmed on reading up the history of the Fox, Walker engines [D. Bradley & D. Milton, Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973)] to discover that No. 2 only received a saddle tank extending to the front of the smokebox, as in this photo, when reboilered in 1906. 

 

I may be giving the impression here of possessing a long-established library of S&DJR books - I should point out that they've all been purchased second-hand for under a fiver each, mostly over the last couple of years.

[down the sdjr]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

From Atthill's description, I suspect the lane is the one marked as Wards Drove on the modern 1:25000 map, at ST 889 052. There's a kink in the lane where it crosses the course of the railway. 

I was having a look at the old station location on google maps this morning, seems theres an old bridge there, must admit i did not know about that one, must go and have a look next time i am down.

Thanks again.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8460746,-2.1579287,3a,60y,225.17h,86.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz9-579Qfu-6-RJyZiNTIVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656