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Kato announces Class 800 in N


Mike Harvey
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8 hours ago, fezza said:

In general British modellers seem very insular with only a very small minority building 'continental' layouts. That's not necessarily the case elsewhere. 


I"m not sure why you think this—Britain is the only country in the world, AFAIK, to produce a magazine devoted to other countries' railways in model form. You won't see much if any coverage of British railways in other countries' magazines—though I'm not so sure about Japan.

 

If Kato are only interested in models they can sell in Japan, why the range of US prototypes — yes, they might sell the "Twentieth Century Limited" in Japan, but an NW2?

Edited by D9020 Nimbus
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Kato seem to be enjoying the contact on the 800 and 009 projects and Mr Kato has been actively engaging with people at a few shows last year so it’s nice to see their enthusiasm. They have vast experience and after a slow start the RhB Swiss range is steadily increasing but not at any great rate as it has to join the Japanese, US and European ranges in the design office. I suspect we are considered more as part of the European range as a whole so if we are lucky you may see one new thing a year as they have planned in 009. I don’t expect a full on UK range to be built fast from experience with the RhB stuff which is very popular in Japan. The US market is vast in comparison and they do have KatoUSA as the only official foreign ‘station’ as a result. Noch have been heavily involved in their RhB range and it seems Peco have been instrumental in a similar way with the 009 so maybe Kato will look to others here to push more liveries etc? It will be interesting to see what they do. 

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1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

If Kato are only interested in models they can sell in Japan, why the range of US prototypes — yes, they might sell the "Twentieth Century Limited" in Japan, but an NW2?

 

The N scale market in North America is much larger, and thus much healthier, than the UK N market.

 

In addition to Kato the North American N market also has Athearn, Intermountain, Atlas, Microtrains, Broadway Limited, Bachmann as well as smaller producers like Rapido and Fox Valley (and likely others).

 

 

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The launch of new multiple unit models is something that rarely excites me - I normally get one loco costing around £100-125 a year from my in-laws for Christmas. I don't often buy a loco myself because, despite being committed to N gauge, I can't really justify it. I could certainly never justify a Pendolino set, for example. I know they're excellent but it's just so much money. 

 

This is different - it's good value and from an established and reputable source. It'd be nice to see another major manufacturer get involved with British N. There are a few, like Rapido, Sonic, Hattons and so on, who are just tickling round the edges of it with one model every now and then and then Bachmann who just don't seem as committed as they could be- the new announcement sections in the magazines every year only have a tiny list of N gauge stuff. It'd be great to see an alternative like Kato set up with a broad range. It won't happen for all the reasons stated above but it'd still be nice. I've put myself down for one. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, LukeB said:

There are a few, like Rapido, Sonic, Hattons and so on, who are just tickling round the edges of it with one model every now and then and then Bachmann who just don't seem as committed as they could be- the new announcement sections in the magazines every year only have a tiny list of N gauge stuff. It'd be great to see an alternative like Kato set up with a broad range. It won't happen for all the reasons stated above but it'd still be nice. I've put myself down for one.

 

I think some clarification is needed.

 

Claiming that Rapido and Sonic are "just tickling round the edges of it with one model every now and then" is more than a bit unfair to them, and if that is going to be the attitude of the N scale community then that same community shouldn't act surprised and upset if no further models are released.

 

What is really happening is that both Rapido and Sonic are new entrants to the British N scale market, having both announced only 1 model each (their first).  And the indications are in both cases that they have plans for further models in N once they get their respective brands established.

 

So while there are likely valid reasons to be upset with the likes of Farrish/Bachmann, lumping all of the manufacturers into the same basket when it is not deserved is an easy way to kill N.

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Just anecdotal I know at this stage, but currently looking at the top sellers/reservation list at my preferred Japanese supplier (Hobby Search), the GWR version is number 1 and the LNER version is number 4 at the time of writing. Which means there looks to be quite a bit of interest in Japan (and others, but unlikely UK) at least with this supplier.

 

The Japanese are quite proud of these sets operating in the UK, so Kato have chosen well; there is a domestic and UK market for these trains, as well as those who collect high speed trains from around the world.

 

It would be great to think this would be triggering the start of a wide-scale entry into the UK train market for Kato, but I suspect as some others on here, that we'll only see limited releases...the UK market just isn't big enough.

 

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It will be interesting to see what Kato’s future UK releases are, as they have stated they are intending on a range, so more than 1 release. The 800 is the perfect first model as many have pointed out due to the huge Japanese market interest.

 

I wonder if future releases will have to be more expensive to account for lower sales if they become too UK-niche. How many Japanese modellers would buy a class 197 for example? 

 

The 395 would seem a sensible next step perhaps?

 

David 

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These look great and at a fantastic price. Sent to my partner who responded:
"Pick a gauge".

 

I have OO and HO, but am sorely tempted by O as they're impressive, and N by being able to actually fit in a layout...

 

The gaugemaster sets are a decent price with track and controller; they would seriously tempt me as an impulse purchase.

 

Kato mechanisms have a fantastic reputation in North America, I think expectations will be high :)

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6 minutes ago, bmthtrains - David said:

It will be interesting to see what Kato’s future UK releases are, as they have stated they are intending on a range, so more than 1 release. The 800 is the perfect first model as many have pointed out due to the huge Japanese market interest.

 

I wonder if future releases will have to be more expensive to account for lower sales if they become too UK-niche. How many Japanese modellers would buy a class 197 for example? 

 

The 395 would seem a sensible next step perhaps?

 

David 

 

395 would probably be a good call as they, too, are made by Hitachi, so could also appease the Japanese market. (I read somewhere that Japan accounts for some 90% of Kato's production with the remaining 10% shared around the rest of the world. Not good economics to manufacture something which will only appeal to UK only, which could reach a massive 1% of their production! BTW, the prototypes of the RhB metre gauge trains [Glacier Express, Bernina Express, Allegra, etc.] which they model are usually full of Japanese tourists - hence their viability as models! I would not be surprised if they developed a set of Jungfrau region trains for the same reason.)

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20 hours ago, mdvle said:

What is really happening is that both Rapido and Sonic are new entrants to the British N scale market, having both announced only 1 model each (their first).  And the indications are in both cases that they have plans for further models in N once they get their respective brands established.

 

Sonic already have a model in the shops - the VEA van, done in three liveries and multiple running numbers.

In Revolution Train's Facebook Live from earlier this week, Ben Ando said that Sonic have their second N Gauge model planned - another steam engine due to be announced once the 56xx arrives in the shops. They've also got a OO Gauge model to announce at the same time.

 

Steven B.

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20 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I think some clarification is needed.

 

Claiming that Rapido and Sonic are "just tickling round the edges of it with one model every now and then" is more than a bit unfair to them, and if that is going to be the attitude of the N scale community then that same community shouldn't act surprised and upset if no further models are released.

 

What is really happening is that both Rapido and Sonic are new entrants to the British N scale market, having both announced only 1 model each (their first).  And the indications are in both cases that they have plans for further models in N once they get their respective brands established.

 

So while there are likely valid reasons to be upset with the likes of Farrish/Bachmann, lumping all of the manufacturers into the same basket when it is not deserved is an easy way to kill N.

 I agree with all of that but I'd suggest that that this isn't the attitude of the bulk of the N gauge community.

 

To add to Sonic thread, according to comments on the most recent Revolution webcast, they (Sonic) have mapped out their next 2 or 3 (at least) models and are only waiting the arrival of their first powered model before making further announcements.

 

I'd also suggest that Bachman Farish have shown great commitment to the British N gauge market with some simply excellent models over the last year or two, such as the EE Type 4, Thomson Coaches and the superb 8F.

 

Best

 

Scott.

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19 hours ago, bmthtrains - David said:

It will be interesting to see what Kato’s future UK releases are, as they have stated they are intending on a range, so more than 1 release. The 800 is the perfect first model as many have pointed out due to the huge Japanese market interest.

 

I wonder if future releases will have to be more expensive to account for lower sales if they become too UK-niche. How many Japanese modellers would buy a class 197 for example? 

 

The 395 would seem a sensible next step perhaps?

 

David 

I would have thought the Class 385, being another Hitachi product, would be another likely candidate.

 

Despite not being a high speed train in the veign of the 800s and the 395s, the theory is it would sell well in Japan simply because it is Hitachi...

 

Best

 

Scott.

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I'd stand by my comment that Rapido and Sonic are tickling round the edges. It's not meant to be derogatory but they're small manufacturers with small ranges. They're important for the N gauge environment but they lack the clout to really shake things up. Rapido might be established but even their US range has only eleven models. 

 

Kato offers the chance for an alternative to Dapol and Bachmann that has a well established, extensive range and if they really went for it we could see more choice, variety and quality for N gauge models, perhaps even better value and maybe even a few more modellers - modellers in the bigger scales often say the don't model in N because of the small ranges available. 

 

 

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The problem is that most of the likely big-selling classes have already been done. Some—particularly the V2, "Peak", 25/3 and the early Dapol tank engines (45xx, Ivatt 2-6-2T) need updating, others (WC/BB, "new" M7, 158 etc.) are still awaited, but apart from some of DJM's promises (King, GW Mogul) there isn't a lot left in the steam world. We could do with some more 1st generation DMUs but Bachmann are best placed there. So I'm not sure that there's room for a range of the size you seem to be thinking about — even in OO, most of the new entrants are "niche" players, at least so far, even Oxford, who claimed to be providing a full range, haven't grown hugely yet.

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1 hour ago, LukeB said:

I'd stand by my comment that Rapido and Sonic are tickling round the edges.

 

There is a concept, it applies to both businesses and human babies - "learning to walk before running"

 

When entering a new market, or starting a new business, one of the most damaging and dangerous things that can be done is to start to big.

 

There is no point of either Sonic or Rapido announcing additional N scale stuff until such time as they deliver (or are close to) their first loco - the market needs to experience the first product before it will even consider buying anything else, and the market needs time to learn that you exist.

 

(the opposite approach, as taken by DJM, was a grand announcement of a very ambitious program - and while there were certainly other issues with DJM as a business the failure to be able to deliver on those first grand promises was an important part of his problems).

 

1 hour ago, LukeB said:

It's not meant to be derogatory but they're small manufacturers with small ranges.

 

I won't comment on Sonic as I am not familiar enough, but Rapido is not a small manufacturer - with 15 employees and 3 soon to be 4 factories they are mid-sized to large for a model train maker (this hobby is in general small).  In the last 12 months Rapido have announced 19 new items (14 HO, 4 OO, 1 N) with the only reason for no North American N being they overwhelmed the market with what they announced the previous year - and they have shown tooling for at least 1 item that has yet to be announced.

 

1 hour ago, LukeB said:

They're important for the N gauge environment but they lack the clout to really shake things up. Rapido might be established but even their US range has only eleven models. 

 

Rapido's North American range has at least 20(*) models, plus 4 other models done as an exclusive for the hobby retailer Prairie Shadows.  And most of that is from the last 5 years when they were finally established enough that they could expand into N.

 

As for clout to shake things up, they do.  They are well enough established as a company with enough products now that they can expand as far as the market takes them - if UK modellers buy Rapido's N scale stuff, they can deliver more stuff.

 

To be blunt, both Farrish and Dapol should be re-evaluating their N scale plans as there is now a danger that Revolution, Sonic, and Rapido can take revenue away from them - just as Bachmann and Hornby have seen in the OO market as Accurascale, Cavalex, Hattons, and Rails have entered the market and taken models away from them.

 

1 hour ago, LukeB said:

Kato offers the chance for an alternative to Dapol and Bachmann that has a well established, extensive range and if they really went for it we could see more choice, variety and quality for N gauge models, perhaps even better value and maybe even a few more modellers

 

As has already been noted, Kato's economics don't work for the UK market - it is too small.  Kato is set up as a company to sell in the 50,000 to 100,000 unit range for a model and attempting to enter a market that operates in the 5,000 unit range won't work for their cost structure (though I will note that I would be happy to be proven wrong).

 

But in the meantime instead of wishing for a Kato miracle pay attention to the Revolution Trains, Sonic, and Rapido that actually can deliver what you want - for it is they that will drive the N market forward.

 

 

 

 

*- I may have missed 1 or 2 other past products that currently aren't on their website.

8-40CM, GMD-1, F40PH-2D (originally and rebuilt), FP9A, Comets, Horizons, LRC, Osgoode Bradley, NH 8600, Skyline, Budd Coach, Budd Baggage, Chateau, Park, Diner, Manor, CC&F Coach, CC&F Baggage, 10-5 Sleeper, TurboTrain

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10 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

The problem is that most of the likely big-selling classes have already been done. Some—particularly the V2, "Peak", 25/3 and the early Dapol tank engines (45xx, Ivatt 2-6-2T) need updating, others (WC/BB, "new" M7, 158 etc.) are still awaited, but apart from some of DJM's promises (King, GW Mogul) there isn't a lot left in the steam world. 

Two obvious gaps still remaining for GWR/WR modellers are a 51xx large prairie (to replace the outdated Grafar model) and a Churchward 43xx (and perhaps Collett) mogul, as promised by DJ Models.

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8 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

even in OO, most of the new entrants are "niche" players, at least so far, even Oxford, who claimed to be providing a full range, haven't grown hugely yet.

 

Oxford are a bit of an unusual case, where the owner left to go and run Hornby.  We simply have no idea as to what Oxford might have announced/done without that change.

 

But the key point to take away is that it takes time to build up a business to the point where there is enough revenue being generated to get ambitious with what is produced - making model trains is capital intensive given the amount of money that needs to be spent prior to generating any income.

 

It's easy to look at Rapido today and say they are a successful business - as noted about 19 new items announced in a year (and they have doubled twice in the last 5 years I believe) - but that all ignores the first 10 years when there was little new product in any given year as they struggled to grow.

 

I have no idea what the owners of Revolution have planned, but watching them there are similarities to what was seen with Rapido and other companies - start out slow, but with each product that gets delivered there is more experience, a larger customer base, more trust that they can deliver what they promise, and the additional "profits" mean eventually they can make the next step if that is what the desire.

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2 hours ago, LukeB said:

I'd stand by my comment that Rapido and Sonic are tickling round the edges. It's not meant to be derogatory but they're small manufacturers with small ranges. They're important for the N gauge environment but they lack the clout to really shake things up. Rapido might be established but even their US range has only eleven models. 

 

Kato offers the chance for an alternative to Dapol and Bachmann that has a well established, extensive range and if they really went for it we could see more choice, variety and quality for N gauge models, perhaps even better value and maybe even a few more modellers - modellers in the bigger scales often say the don't model in N because of the small ranges available. 

 

 

The more manufacturers there are in N, the more product will come to market, the more attractive N gauge becomes again.

 

When Farish and Dapol were at each other at the beginning of this century (makes it sound a really long time ago!!) it spurred improvements on both sides and lots of product for us to buy.  Farish are already reacting to changes by including speakers and Next18 sockets in their latest products, this will also put pressure on other manufacturers into innovating and keeping up in specifications which is good for the market.

 

Having Sonic, Rapido, RevolutioN, Dapol, Kato, Farish and maybe even Hornby again via Arnold means there is still a place for N in the UK and it's quite exciting to see what will come of it.

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I must admit that I'm getting less and less excited by this model.

 

I don't really want either release, a TPE 802 is what I'm after, and it seems that these two five car units are likely to be all that we get for the next few years.

 

I don't like being locked into a proprietary DCC decoder brand either, although I'm sure I read somewhere that Zimo make the decoders for Kato.

 

I think it's also very unlikely that anyone else would be willing to offer a competing model, so we're stuck with whatever Kato do.

 

Ho hum,

 

John P

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6 hours ago, Steadfast said:

Hattons have emailed this morning.

They're now advertising the decoder set for £42

https://www.hattons.co.uk/611071/gaugemaster_dcc89_kato_class_800_digital_decoder_pack/stockdetail.aspx

 

Jo

Plus an additional 5(!) decoders for the interior lights according to Hatton’s. So a 5-car set needs 8 decoders in total. 

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