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Kato/Peco Announce FR Locos in 009! (confirmed!)

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49 minutes ago, nathan70000 said:

After many years resisting the allure of 009, I think the opportunity to own my very own 'Prince' might finally tempt me as I have a bit of a soft spot for this particular locomotive. It's a little odd that they're doing it in green; it's been red for the last 40 years IIRC and it had a 'flat' footplate back then whereas now it is raised underneath the water tank. The cynic inside me wonders if they are waiting to do the current 'Prince' (and the also currently operational 'Palmerston') in the second batch so people end up buying two! 

 

£150 is a little steep for an 0-4-0 but 009 is still somewhat of a niche. Hattons are quoting £130 which is a bit more palatable. I'd be expecting the Fairlie to come in at just under £200 but it could be lower. I seriously doubt the market would take a price of £200> for them. 

Bear in mind that the Fairlies aren't likely to arrive for at least three years, and a lot can and will happen between now and then. With the pound moving as it has today, £200 now could easily translate to £300 in the interim.

 

OO9 has always been and always will be a niche, and it's keen adherents are used to either making things or paying others to do so for them. The cost of a professionally built OO9 Fairlie from a kit would make your eyes water and many would regard a £200 Fairlie as an absolute steal by comparison. At that level it would be half what Roco were talking about for the one they didn't actually go ahead with a few years ago.

 

All the r-t-r stuff does is make OO9 a slightly bigger niche, but it's never going to get up to OO volumes or down to OO prices.

 

An OO9 Fairlie at a similar price to an OO Garratt therefore isn't necessarily a bad deal, there's just a decision to be made over whether it's worth it to you. If all you want is a dabble in a different scale/gauge, it probably won't be.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Bear in mind that the Fairlies aren't likely to arrive for at least three years, and a lot can and will happen between now and then. With the pound moving as it has today, £200 now could easily translate to £300 in the interim.

 

OO9 has always been and always will be a niche, and it's keen adherents are used to either making things or paying others to do so for them. The cost of a professionally built OO9 Fairlie from a kit would make your eyes water and many would regard a £200 Fairlie as an absolute steal by comparison. At that level it would be half what Roco were talking about for the one they didn't actually go ahead with a few years ago.

 

All the r-t-r stuff does is make OO9 a slightly bigger niche, but it's never going to get up to OO volumes or down to OO prices.

 

An OO9 Fairlie at a similar price to an OO Garratt therefore isn't necessarily a bad deal, there's just a decision to be made over whether it's worth it to you. If all you want is a dabble in a different scale/gauge, it probably won't be.

 

John

 

It will also depend a lot on what else is coming out at the same time. I'm sitting on the edge about doing OO-9. I could have started with Heljans items but people having issues with them plus the glut of southern releases at the same time lead me to dropping the idea.

These are very chosen prototypes. The 'Prince' being an 0-4-0 tank loco with a tender, the Fairlie with that double end push me pull you feel. Where else in UK RTR can we see such characterful splenders? 

 

 

 

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I suppose it could go above £200 but I think that's pretty much the absolute ceiling for most British R-T-R (O gauge and above notwithstanding), and even then pricing a model that high must be quite commercially risky. I can certainly see Bachmann getting burnt with their new Caley 0-6-0. 

 

I certainly hope these are successful enough for Kato/Peco to consider more 009 locos and more Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland locos in particular. 

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6 hours ago, nathan70000 said:

After many years resisting the allure of 009, I think the opportunity to own my very own 'Prince' might finally tempt me as I have a bit of a soft spot for this particular locomotive. It's a little odd that they're doing it in green; it's been red for the last 40 years IIRC and it had a 'flat' footplate back then whereas now it is raised underneath the water tank. The cynic inside me wonders if they are waiting to do the current 'Prince' (and the also currently operational 'Palmerston') in the second batch so people end up buying two! 

 

£150 is a little steep for an 0-4-0 but 009 is still somewhat of a niche. Hattons are quoting £130 which is a bit more palatable. I'd be expecting the Fairlie to come in at just under £200 but it could be lower. I seriously doubt the market would take a price of £200> for them. 

 

Not quite true, it has had a raised footplate in green, that is how I remember first seeing it in 1981.  Here is a photo from 1984 (not mine):

https://www.ffestiniograilway.org.uk/galleries/welsh-pony#gallery-12

 

I wonder if they are recreating Prince as it was when the line re-opened? At that time a raised footplate was also present and, whilst I can’t find a colour photo to confirm it, I believe Prince was green. The flat footplate came later during a preservation era rebuild. 

 

Roy

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6 hours ago, nathan70000 said:

I suppose it could go above £200 but I think that's pretty much the absolute ceiling for most British R-T-R (O gauge and above notwithstanding), and even then pricing a model that high must be quite commercially risky. I can certainly see Bachmann getting burnt with their new Caley 0-6-0. 

 

I certainly hope these are successful enough for Kato/Peco to consider more 009 locos and more Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland locos in particular. 

Bare in mind that the current selling price for the Heljan L&B locos is over £200 now, 4 of the 6 types in stock at Hattons are £209.95  (although some are seen at reduced prices sometimes)

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/272027/heljan_9954_lynton_barnstaple_2_6_2t_e759_yeo_in_southern_railway_livery/stockdetail.aspx

 

In 3 years time I would not be surprised to see the Fairlies sold for well above £200

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5 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Not quite true, it has had a raised footplate in green, that is how I remember first seeing it in 1981.  Here is a photo from 1984 (not mine):

https://www.ffestiniograilway.org.uk/galleries/welsh-pony#gallery-12

 

I wonder if they are recreating Prince as it was when the line re-opened? At that time a raised footplate was also present and, whilst I can’t find a colour photo to confirm it, I believe Prince was green. The flat footplate came later during a preservation era rebuild.

I suspect you're correct there. In the 1981 photo Prince already has the higher cab (note the way the front spectacles are some way above the tank). I think the first two will have the earlier, lower style cabs, so I think it will be Prince like this, 1890s up to early preservation era.

Edited by BernardTPM

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This is really annoying. I was saying to someone the other day that what I absolutely don't want to do on my 009 layouts is have a lot of locomotives show up that in reality were native to one particular line. "That being said," I added, "I might make an exception if someone did Prince, but it's probably going to be a long time before anyone gets around to that."

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It will be interesting to see which locos they are planning.  For example will they do Taliesin as running in the 1960s?

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On ‎30‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 01:57, nathan70000 said:

I suppose it could go above £200 but I think that's pretty much the absolute ceiling for most British R-T-R (O gauge and above notwithstanding), and even then pricing a model that high must be quite commercially risky. I can certainly see Bachmann getting burnt with their new Caley 0-6-0. 

 

I certainly hope these are successful enough for Kato/Peco to consider more 009 locos and more Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland locos in particular. 

They said that when prices of big locos in OO passed the hundred quid mark, and again when small ones started to do so. A "successful" model is one that sells in the expected numbers and makes an adequate return on investment. Further OO9 locos will only be produced if both criteria are fulfilled. Look at Bachmann's latest release schedule and notice how OO9 releases seem to be leap-frogging OO ones. Reason? They will fulfil pent-up demand in a hitherto under-supplied market segment which is consequently less price resistant than over-provided OO. 

 

However, what constitutes a successful "big seller" in OO9 isn't more than 5% of what an OO producer would expect and OO9 modellers are well-accustomed to the fact-of-life that servicing a specialist interest always costs more than being part of a larger herd. The numbers modelling OO9 have inevitably risen as a result of increasing r-t-r provision, but it's unlikely it will ever challenge N on volume, let alone standard gauge OO. Those entering with an "OO-bargain-hunter" mentality are doomed to disappointment. 

 

Collectors/Rule One-ers who choose models randomly based on the individual attractiveness of prototype or livery (e.g. Caley 0-6-0) can afford a pain-free take-it-or-leave-it attitude to purchasing based on their personal perception of value. Those who really want a model of a particular locomotive (or whatever) that fits their established modelling interests will have a different take on it. 

 

Heljan's latest L&B loco releases are not all that far over the £200 mark now and batch-built models from Fourdees have already exceeded it on a number of occasions.  What the Peco/Kato Fairlie ultimately costs two or three years down the road will certainly not align with 2019 expectations. An awful lot is going to change in the meantime and, whatever our political leanings,  none of us will like all of it. 

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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2 hours ago, knitpick said:

It will be interesting to see which locos they are planning.  For example will they do Taliesin as running in the 1960s?

The Double Fairlies are coming after the Small Englands, and Taliesin is a Single Fairle, so I doubt she'll be made unless they decide to make the NWNGR ones down the line too.

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20 minutes ago, 9402 Fredrick said:

The Double Fairlies are coming after the Small Englands, and Taliesin is a Single Fairle, so I doubt she'll be made unless they decide to make the NWNGR ones down the line too.

One of the double Fairlies ran as Taliesin in the sixties,  it later became Earl of Merioneth, then Livingston Thompson (it's original name) when the new EoM was built. Now in the NRM.

 

Given that the original Taliesin was, and the modern replica is, half a FR double Fairlie in mechanical terms, a model could presumably use the same "motor bogie" as they'll be making for them.

 

John 

Edited by Dunsignalling

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Interesting that the initial pair of England engines are Princess and a green Prince.  That to me suggests two models of the England engines in post 1890s rebuilt condition.  This probably rules out Prince in current condition (red or green) as it's a much larger beast than Princess due to being put on Boston Lodge steroids during the rebuild in the 1970s.

 

This might indicate the Fairlie being Livingston Thompson/Taliesin or Merddin Emrys in pre-1970 condition, these would match the pair of England engines for period.

 

All just guess work, we'll have to wait  and see.

 

Martin

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It'll certainly be interesting to see how many detail variations are to be included in the toolings, hopefully they won't go down the 'one size fits all' route, as there are lot of differences between the Englands some of which would be very noticeable to a lot of potential purchasers.

 

The rule-onners, and casual modellers might not mind too much, and it'd be good for the FfR shop to be able to sell a model of the locos as a souvenir of a trip, albeit a rather expensive one! Those of us who are planning on, or actually modelling some of the FfR/WHR would most probably want them to be mostly (a few tweaks to bring a loco to a more specific era are acceptable) right.

 

Looking forward to seeing how this develops, but for now, I'll be waiting to see what is actually being produced before committing.

 

Cheers

 

J

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On 03/08/2019 at 16:43, JaymzHatstand said:

It'll certainly be interesting to see how many detail variations are to be included in the toolings, hopefully they won't go down the 'one size fits all' route, as there are lot of differences between the Englands some of which would be very noticeable to a lot of potential purchasers.

 

The rule-onners, and casual modellers might not mind too much, and it'd be good for the FfR shop to be able to sell a model of the locos as a souvenir of a trip, albeit a rather expensive one! Those of us who are planning on, or actually modelling some of the FfR/WHR would most probably want them to be mostly (a few tweaks to bring a loco to a more specific era are acceptable) right.

 

Looking forward to seeing how this develops, but for now, I'll be waiting to see what is actually being produced before committing.

 

Cheers

 

J

 

The more detail and the more variations, the higher the price, and the greater the mithering.

 

Just sayin'.

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Just to clarify, I am aware that the current Taliesin is a single Fairlie.  However, my wife has fond childhood memories of riding behind double Fairlie Taliesin - hence my reference to the 1960s.  One of my HC Casserley books notes that this double Fairlie was renamed to Taliesin in the 1930s and lost that name in another renaming in the 1960s.  It is my wife's interest that prompted my question.

 

In terms of costs, the maximum number of variations and thus potential sales that can be achieved with limited retooling, then the lower prices will be.  At a simplistic level, the more locos that can be put onto the same chassis albeit with subtle body differences then  the higher the number of sales to set against the tooling costs.   

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4 hours ago, bingley hall said:

 

The more detail and the more variations, the higher the price, and the greater the mithering.

 

Just sayin'.

 

More detail = more cost. More variations = more potential sales. Somewhere is a balance that needs to be found, it is not as simple as more variations means higher price.

 

A 20% increase in cost to allow for more variations may double sales and make more profit, even at the same price as for a single tooled variation. 

 

Roy

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So looking forward to this. Agree it's likely to be costly but a Double Fairlie is too good to resist...will start saving now!

 

Be interested to see if they sell this in Japan too. Probably not, but worth keeping an eye on. I've also got an n gauge layout of Kato Shinkansen trains, and with the yen quite weak against the pound over the last few years I've been able to purchase a lot at very decent prices (usually from https://www.1999.co.jp/eng). So *may* be cheaper there. And I'm planning on going on holiday to Japan again in 2021 so perhaps I'll pick one up !

 

I'm aware, of course, that the pound is only going in one direction at the moment...could increase costs across the board. Fingers cross I guess...

 

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On 04/08/2019 at 09:46, knitpick said:

Just to clarify, I am aware that the current Taliesin is a single Fairlie.  However, my wife has fond childhood memories of riding behind double Fairlie Taliesin - hence my reference to the 1960s.  One of my HC Casserley books notes that this double Fairlie was renamed to Taliesin in the 1930s and lost that name in another renaming in the 1960s.  It is my wife's interest that prompted my question.

 

The loco was originally named Livingston Thompson after a director of the company who had served until 1874. By the 1930's presumably the name no longer meant anything to anybody and when the single fairlie  was scrapped its name Taliesin (I'm not sure if he would have been a houshold name to North Wales folk) was transferred to the double Fairlie.

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Stan on the NG forum had a chat with Mr Hiroshi Kato when he was over and said :

 

He told us it would be one loco manufactured  (not a small or large England loco) one covering them all.

 

Also John from the FR has posted pics and video of the concept tests running at the show. Note they are rough size concepts to prove mechanism ideas the bodies are not based on accurate cad. 

http://isleofstoner.blogspot.com/2019/08/mostly-showing-off.html?m=1

 

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Peco in partnership with Kato had their first running sample of the highly anticipated 009 Scale Small England Locomotive on display over the course of the weekend at the Warley National Model Railway Exhibition 2019.
This early 3D Printed sample demonstrated the super smooth and quite characteristics of the mechanism on the Peco 009 Test Track. The sample was paired with a Kato N Gauge Tender to complete the pick-up circuit, while the prototypical tender is under development.  
*Please note this is an early test sample to demonstrate the mechanism* 

Hope you enjoy!

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Compared to what Bachmann and Heljan are offering in terms of detail and accuracy I have to say the chassis is a massive disappointment. It looks to be no improvement on an N gauge chassis with a oo9 body kit. 

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4 hours ago, colin smith said:

Compared to what Bachmann and Heljan are offering in terms of detail and accuracy I have to say the chassis is a massive disappointment. It looks to be no improvement on an N gauge chassis with a oo9 body kit. 

Was quoted by the Kato team the model is just to demonstrate the mechanism. The wheels and tender are from a Kato Japanese N Gauge donor. The body was quickly 3D printed, to give a rough feel toward the end product. Very early stages yet, but shows it will run well.

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4 hours ago, colin smith said:

Compared to what Bachmann and Heljan are offering in terms of detail and accuracy I have to say the chassis is a massive disappointment. It looks to be no improvement on an N gauge chassis with a oo9 body kit. 

It was announced at the first look it’s purely a concept prototype to test spaces and technical dimensions with a rough 3D print body. Don’t read anything into these early tests apart from an intention to make them.

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16 hours ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Was quoted by the Kato team the model is just to demonstrate the mechanism. The wheels and tender are from a Kato Japanese N Gauge donor. The body was quickly 3D printed, to give a rough feel toward the end product. Very early stages yet, but shows it will run well.

 

Ah. Thank you. When it said 'test the mechanism' I assume they meant the whole chassis was the finished article. Hopefully they'll have the right number of spokes in the wheels and much finer motion.

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