Intercity WCML Trent Valley formations 1990s

[Foden]

Hi guys,

Just interested in what some of the varieties of traction and coaching stock were on the Trent Valley route in the 1990s. I remember ofcourse formations of 87s & 90s working with rakes of Mk3s and DVTs on the London - Glasgow services, but did these also work services to Liverpool & Manchester?

Likewise I also remember Class 86s and Mk2 coaches, sometimes with, sometimes without a DVT, I caught one of these to Liverpool in 1992, but did these formations also work to/from Scotland?

 

And finally diesel traction. I know both HSTs and 47s could be found on the Trent Valley, but what services would these have been on, Holyhead, Chester, and Blackpool? What would determine whether it would be a HST set or a 47 and Mk2s?

[hexagon789]

13 minutes ago, Foden said:

Hi guys,

Just interested in what some of the varieties of traction and coaching stock were on the Trent Valley route in the 1990s. I remember ofcourse formations of 87s & 90s working with rakes of Mk3s and DVTs on the London - Glasgow services, but did these also work services to Liverpool & Manchester?

Likewise I also remember Class 86s and Mk2 coaches, sometimes with, sometimes without a DVT, I caught one of these to Liverpool in 1992, but did these formations also work to/from Scotland?

 

And finally diesel traction. I know both HSTs and 47s could be found on the Trent Valley, but what services would these have been on, Holyhead, Chester, and Blackpool? What would determine whether it would be a HST set or a 47 and Mk2s?

 

Usually All Mk3 push-pull sets on Euston-Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow by the early 1990s. A few different formations but generally 5-6 TSO, RFM, 2/3 FO (occasionally a BFO in place of a FO), DVT.

 

The Euston-Birmingham/Wolverhampton were Mk2f push-pull with Mk3 RFM and DVT. Generally similar formations to the Mk3 but most sets had 6 TSO and 3 FO compared to the Mk3s.

 

The Liverpool/Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh were I believe mostly the usual Cross-Country formation of 7 Mk2e/f coaches, typically RFB, 5 TSO, BSO.

 

I think the few Blackpool services from London were generally the Mk3 sets, diesel-hauled from Preston. Holyhead went over from hauled stock to HSTs in about 1993 or thereabouts, someone will know the exact dates.

[Pete the Elaner]

I travelled from Euston-Birmingham weekly for a while around 1992. It was usually 86/ Mk2F / DVT but on 1 occasion (when I caught an earlier train) it was a Mk3A set.

Manchester has always seemed to have been the flagship service publicised for its journey time (A cut in journey time to Glasgow less well publicised), so this would make Mk3As preferred over Mk2Fs.

I have commuted from Milton Keynes to Euston from 2002, but the stock was the same so I assume the service would have been similar.

Whenever I caught it, the 1655 Euston to Manchester was a Mk3A set as was the 1700 Euston to Liverpool.

In the morning, there was an up HST from MK around 0702. I assume this originated in Chester or Holyhead but was surprised when I learned it was actually from Manchester. It was always an HST, so a diesel under the wires all the way.

So I agree with the above post. They may not have run all the services but the majority from London to both Manchester & Liverpool were Mk3As.

 

There were some odd rakes too. Typical length would have been 9 coaches + DVT but I remember a 6 coach + DVT set turning up once.

 

[Foden]

Cheers guys, my memory deceives me in this case then. I certainly remember that I caught one train from Nuneaton to Liverpool in '92 and I know that was an 86 & Mk2, but I thought that was pretty normal for the time, it must have been an oddity.

I was sure I'd remember, and seen videos on Youtube of Mk2 stock through Nuneaton in this time period though.  

 

This video for example, in 1996 shows an Class 86 and primarily Mk2 stock travelling North, what service might this have been?  (4:31)

 

 

There's another Southbound at 6:32

 

Would these all have been diversions at the time?

Edited August 5, 2019 by Foden

[hexagon789]

52 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I travelled from Euston-Birmingham weekly for a while around 1992. It was usually 86/ Mk2F / DVT but on 1 occasion (when I caught an earlier train) it was a Mk3A set.

Manchester has always seemed to have been the flagship service publicised for its journey time (A cut in journey time to Glasgow less well publicised), so this would make Mk3As preferred over Mk2Fs.

I have commuted from Milton Keynes to Euston from 2002, but the stock was the same so I assume the service would have been similar.

Whenever I caught it, the 1655 Euston to Manchester was a Mk3A set as was the 1700 Euston to Liverpool.

In the morning, there was an up HST from MK around 0702. I assume this originated in Chester or Holyhead but was surprised when I learned it was actually from Manchester. It was always an HST, so a diesel under the wires all the way.

So I agree with the above post. They may not have run all the services but the majority from London to both Manchester & Liverpool were Mk3As.

 

There were some odd rakes too. Typical length would have been 9 coaches + DVT but I remember a 6 coach + DVT set turning up once.

 

 

The reason for Mk3s on Glasgow services was they could run at 110mph, the Mk2f sets were limited to 100. The Glasgow services were mostly timed for 110 (some weren't), but I'm not sure if Liverpool/Manchester were even after the move to fixed formation push-pull sets.

 

As to weird sets, definitely a few over the years. Virgin had a Mk2f set going about with 2 DVTs for a while!

 

By about 1992 the sets seemed to be quite rigid formation wise, Glasgow almost always being 6 TSO-RFM-2 FO-DVT. Though I've seen sets in videos with only one FO or only 4 TSOs in some cases.

 

Perhaps the strangest Mk3 set I've seen was formed 4 TSO-RFM-BFO-DVT, just 7 coaches plus DVT.

Edited August 5, 2019 by hexagon789

[hexagon789]

39 minutes ago, Foden said:

Cheers guys, my memory deceives me in this case then. I certainly remember that I caught one train from Nuneaton to Liverpool in '92 and I know that was an 86 & Mk2, but I thought that was pretty normal for the time, it must have been an oddity.

I was sure I'd remember, and seen videos on Youtube of Mk2 stock through Nuneaton in this time period though.  

 

This video for example, in 1996 shows an Class 86 and primarily Mk2 stock travelling North, what service might this have been?  (4:31)

 

 

There's another Southbound at 6:32

 

Would these all have been diversions at the time?

 

The 86+Mk2s I would guess is a Liverpool/Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh.

 

Edit: just noticed at least one Mk3, a FO. I couldn't see if there was a DVT or not, but I didn't see a catering vehicle. Possibly a Mk3 FO standing in for the usual Mk2f RFB?

Edited August 5, 2019 by hexagon789

[Foden]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

 

The 86+Mk2s I would guess is a Liverpool/Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh.

 

Edit: just noticed at least one Mk3, a FO. I couldn't see if there was a DVT or not, but I didn't see a catering vehicle. Possibly a Mk3 FO standing in for the usual Mk2f RFB?

 

Can't be in this instance, as the footage was shot in Nuneaton.

 

The video does show electric drags, but I would assume they are London - Birmingham (and beyond) diverted via Nuneaton on the line to Birmingham via Water Orton.

 

These formations caught passing through Nuneaton at speed must either be timetabled services to use the Trent Valley, or they themselves are diverts for the north that would have stopped at Birmingham, but are bypassing that area completely. I'd figure this unlikely though, wouldn't they just be dragged to Birmingham to re-join the wires as the others are?

[wombatofludham]

The 1990s Trent Valley services were slightly more nuanced than is first thought, and it also depends on when in the 1990s you are modelling.

 

Most Glasgow services were Mk3 stock but formations could vary, there being, as a rule of thumb, less demand for first class accommodation.  Most were 8 or 9 car rakes with two FO, a RFM and 5 or 6 TSO.  However, sometimes one of the FOs were replaced with one of the three experimental BFOs, built for use with a projected electric HST.  However, I have travelled on Mk2f stock on a London to Glasgow service in 1993, it was the first train out of London to Glasgow which was virtually a semi-fast, stopping at places like Lichfield, and taking over five and a half hours as a consequence, so not all Anglo Scottish services were 110mph rated to begin with.

 

Manchester services in the early 1990s had some Mk3 Pullman rakes which were FO,RFM, FO,FO,FO,RFM,TSO,TSO.TSO,TSO, although originally a Mk1 kitchen car and a Mk2 BSO were included until enough RFM vehicles were available and DVTs became the norm when a full Mk3 rake allowed the service to be timed at 110 mph.  Other Manchester rakes tended to have 3 FOs, an RFM and 5 TSOs as there was a lot of first class traffic on the route.

 

Liverpool Pullmans were three FO, and RFM and 5 TSOs, non-Pullman were 2 TSO, RFM and 5 TSO.  Some Liverpools were formed of 100mph Mk2f coaches, I once caught a Liverpool service from Euston which was a Mk2 rake.  Again though it was a service that stopped along the Trent Valley so probably wouldn't be regarded as one of the prime business trains.

 

Blackpool/Preston/Carlisle services could produce the most variety, I've seen Mk3 formations with a single FO+RFM and 6TSO, but also Mk2f stock.  By the late 90s though most were Mk3.  Don't forget the odd "Motorail" service which in push-pull service would be a rake of Mk3s, the loco, then two or three GUV vans behind the loco going south.

 

Holyhead and North Wales were primarily served with Mk2f stock until the Intercity sector rostered Great Western main line HST sets to the North Wales and Blackpool circuits, so again in the early 90s these services usually had no more than two FOs, a buffet and6-7 TSOs.

 

In the very early 1990s some Cross London Intercity services ran down the WCML, electrically hauled to Mitre Bridge then diesel hauled to destinations in Kent and Sussex.  These were originally diagrammed to have air conditioned Mk2 stock with a mini-buffet converted from a Mk2d TSO but within weeks, a rag-bag of stock would turn up.

 

So in summary whilst most trains along the TV were either 8 or 9 car Mk3 rakes (and some 10 car Manchester Pullmans) you did see Mk2 stock along the route working London services on what might be termed "second tier" services or those which served intermediate stations.

 

YouTube has a lot of good video of the late 1980s-1990s which is worth a search.

[Foden]

19 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

The 1990s Trent Valley services were slightly more nuanced than is first thought, and it also depends on when in the 1990s you are modelling.

 

Most Glasgow services were Mk3 stock but formations could vary, there being, as a rule of thumb, less demand for first class accommodation.  Most were 8 or 9 car rakes with two FO, a RFM and 5 or 6 TSO.  However, sometimes one of the FOs were replaced with one of the three experimental BFOs, built for use with a projected electric HST.  However, I have travelled on Mk2f stock on a London to Glasgow service in 1993, it was the first train out of London to Glasgow which was virtually a semi-fast, stopping at places like Lichfield, and taking over five and a half hours as a consequence, so not all Anglo Scottish services were 110mph rated to begin with.

 

Manchester services in the early 1990s had some Mk3 Pullman rakes which were FO,RFM, FO,FO,FO,RFM,TSO,TSO.TSO,TSO, although originally a Mk1 kitchen car and a Mk2 BSO were included until enough RFM vehicles were available and DVTs became the norm when a full Mk3 rake allowed the service to be timed at 110 mph.  Other Manchester rakes tended to have 3 FOs, an RFM and 5 TSOs as there was a lot of first class traffic on the route.

 

Liverpool Pullmans were three FO, and RFM and 5 TSOs, non-Pullman were 2 TSO, RFM and 5 TSO.  Some Liverpools were formed of 100mph Mk2f coaches, I once caught a Liverpool service from Euston which was a Mk2 rake.  Again though it was a service that stopped along the Trent Valley so probably wouldn't be regarded as one of the prime business trains.

 

Blackpool/Preston/Carlisle services could produce the most variety, I've seen Mk3 formations with a single FO+RFM and 6TSO, but also Mk2f stock.  By the late 90s though most were Mk3.  Don't forget the odd "Motorail" service which in push-pull service would be a rake of Mk3s, the loco, then two or three GUV vans behind the loco going south.

 

Holyhead and North Wales were primarily served with Mk2f stock until the Intercity sector rostered Great Western main line HST sets to the North Wales and Blackpool circuits, so again in the early 90s these services usually had no more than two FOs, a buffet and6-7 TSOs.

 

In the very early 1990s some Cross London Intercity services ran down the WCML, electrically hauled to Mitre Bridge then diesel hauled to destinations in Kent and Sussex.  These were originally diagrammed to have air conditioned Mk2 stock with a mini-buffet converted from a Mk2d TSO but within weeks, a rag-bag of stock would turn up.

 

So in summary whilst most trains along the TV were either 8 or 9 car Mk3 rakes (and some 10 car Manchester Pullmans) you did see Mk2 stock along the route working London services on what might be termed "second tier" services or those which served intermediate stations.

 

YouTube has a lot of good video of the late 1980s-1990s which is worth a search.

 

This is an excellent insight, thankyou.

I have spent some time watching the aforementioned Youtube videos now, and can see this mishmash of stock you point to, I just wondered what the logic was behind it! 

[seraphim]

To add a little to this, I worked for InterCity West Coast in the 1990s. Regarding the 1717x BFOs, I've never heard the electric HST story. My understanding was that they were built as part of the plan to dump the Mk2-based Manchester Pullman stock. These were replaced (in part) by the MkIIIB vehicles which were first class only (and a bit of an upgrade on the MkIIIA FOs, with better heating, built in tail lights. more modern electrics etc). This allowed the Pullman to be timed at 110mph, but a problem was the absence of 110mph capable guard's vans. Van accomodation in those days was with Mk1 BGs - there being no Mk2-based vans. A few BGs were "upgraded" to allow 110mph, but the BFOs offered a much better solution. 110mph in a BG with B4 bogies could be a bit exciting. The whole problem went away when the DVTs brought in push-pull operations.

 

Mk2 sets were largely (and latterly entirely) concentrated on Oxley, with the Mk3 sets based at Wembley, Longsight and Polmadie. Therefore, the Mk2 sets largely worked the Euston-Birmingham-Wolves services. There was one year (1992? 1993?) when Oxley had three MkIII sets. Each morning, one would be turned out for 1P02, the up Birmingham Pullman. Most of the Mk2 sets were DVT/3FO/RFM/5TSO, but three sets were 2FO/6TSO. These typically worked Preston services.

 

The train at 6:31 has an RES BG in the formation as the van. My guess is that this would have been hired-in to provide a van for the Guard during one of the many WCML DVT crises. The MkIII DVTs were a poor vehicle from the word go, and suffered badly from bits dropping off and also spares shortages. I doubt if there was ever a moment when ICWC had 52 of the things operational or even complete.

 

 

[wombatofludham]

The "electric HST" working party documents are available (but not on line) from the National Archives at Kew

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11138246

 

Also mentioned in this Rail article

 

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/rail-features/class-91spromise-unfulfilled

[Bomag]

1 hour ago, seraphim said:

To add a little to this, I worked for InterCity West Coast in the 1990s. Regarding the 1717x BFOs, I've never heard the electric HST story. My understanding was that they were built as part of the plan to dump the Mk2-based Manchester Pullman stock. These were replaced (in part) by the MkIIIB vehicles which were first class only (and a bit of an upgrade on the MkIIIA FOs, with better heating, built in tail lights. more modern electrics etc). This allowed the Pullman to be timed at 110mph, but a problem was the absence of 110mph capable guard's vans. Van accomodation in those days was with Mk1 BGs - there being no Mk2-based vans. A few BGs were "upgraded" to allow 110mph, but the BFOs offered a much better solution. 110mph in a BG with B4 bogies could be a bit exciting. The whole problem went away when the DVTs brought in push-pull operations.

 

Mk2 sets were largely (and latterly entirely) concentrated on Oxley, with the Mk3 sets based at Wembley, Longsight and Polmadie. Therefore, the Mk2 sets largely worked the Euston-Birmingham-Wolves services. There was one year (1992? 1993?) when Oxley had three MkIII sets. Each morning, one would be turned out for 1P02, the up Birmingham Pullman. Most of the Mk2 sets were DVT/3FO/RFM/5TSO, but three sets were 2FO/6TSO. These typically worked Preston services.

 

The train at 6:31 has an RES BG in the formation as the van. My guess is that this would have been hired-in to provide a van for the Guard during one of the many WCML DVT crises. The MkIII DVTs were a poor vehicle from the word go, and suffered badly from bits dropping off and also spares shortages. I doubt if there was ever a moment when ICWC had 52 of the things operational or even complete.

 

 

 

There is a fairly comprehensive thread here on the BFOs, and another on their use on the 1986/87 Highland Chieftain. The initial reason for their design was for initial testing of 125mph rated Mk3bs for the electic HST which morphed into the Class 89 for ECML . This got scraped when they went to Class 91 and Mk4. There are mixed messages as to why they got built as BFO and not as three additional FOs; while there is official bumph on building them for the Manchester Pullman it was not due to the ride of NHAs, which while lively were perfectly acceptable for the other Mk3 sets. A more recent dig in docs shows the intended use on the Manchester Pullman was identified as a capacity solution given the second catering car and the limit on weight/length. In the end, by the time they were completed the 1st class loadings on the Manchester Pullman were reduced and there was a move towards evening out usage on the peak trains (which was reflected in the 'shuttle' philosophy). Also when moving into the 'Swallow' period all the Pullman branding on both WCML and ECML stock was removed and only the window flyers told you were on a Pullman services. 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Bomag

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

In the late 1980's and early 1990's Motorail GUV's were to be seen marshalled between the locomotive and train when working north but when working south the locomotives were marshalled between the train and the GUV's. These trains were Mk 3 stock as variously described above with a DVT at the south end.

The GUV's were painted in the executive livery of the day and ran on up-rated Commonwealth bogies, The traction for these trains were mostly Class 87 or Class 90, the 90's were mostly in Swallow livery not the mainline livery, there was occasionally class 86 traction but it is my guess that this was due to failure of an 87 or 90. 

The above is from memory of Preston station while attending college quite some time ago.

 

Gibbo.

[298]

From the video I think there are two diversions in place, the fairly usual Birmingham/Coventry/Rugby blockade where West Coast trains from the south are piloted from Nuneaton to Birmingham, and then a closure from Wolverhampton to Stafford that sees diversions over the same route but then reversing at Nuneaton, this would be the reason for Cross Country (47+Mk2s or HST) trains there. Any XC booked through Coventry when Cov-Birmingham was closed would run direct via Solihull and Camp Hill. During diversions the usual stock allocations would have gone out if the window, hence WC MK2 sets to Liverpool and Manchester.