toolongtoremember Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 Hi everybody, quick question, what is the best height to make a layout for the public to get the best view of a layout you are exhibiting? Have built a 5ft x 2ft layout and can't decide on the height to make the legs. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danemouth Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 There is a fashion at the moment for layouts to be higher than in the past at 50 to 60 inches. Whilst this has its good points think of wheelchair users who cannot see these layouts. Danemouth is 42 inches which I feel is a good compromise. Dave 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach james Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 How long is a piece of string? I would suggest that the maximum height you want is somewhat less than 60", so that the legs can fit into the layout. Other than that, it is a question without an answer. Some individuals feel that a low layout is good, some think a high one is good...both have points in favor and points against. Our club layout is at 44", so the legs will fit into the 48" sections of the layout. Home I have 23", 40" and 60". I prefer the 40", but I find all are workable. James 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1 Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 This comes up on a regular basis. The only person who can decide is you. You will be operating the layout for maybe 6-7 hours at a show. Think about all the bending and leaning over involved. If it's too low you'll end up with backache. How tall are you? Think about reach if you need to get to the other side of layout. I have my layouts at a height where I'm not bending, can easily reach across if required and the majority of people can see it. steve 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted August 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 9, 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, peach james said: How long is a piece of string? I would suggest that the maximum height you want is somewhat less than 60", so that the legs can fit into the layout. Other than that, it is a question without an answer. Some individuals feel that a low layout is good, some think a high one is good...both have points in favor and points against. Our club layout is at 44", so the legs will fit into the 48" sections of the layout. Home I have 23", 40" and 60". I prefer the 40", but I find all are workable. James Agree with the above. Some visitors love high-level TV set style boxed cameo layouts to give eye-level viewing, not my favourite, and some are definitely too low. I would suggest a height you are comfortable either standing at or sitting on a high, kitchen/bar type chair to operate. Standing all day is surprisingly tiring. Gauge how comfortable your personal height is against your ironing board or kitchen worktops, check that for height and adjust up/down as appropriate. My current layout is an ironing board height plus about 70mm. Edited August 9, 2019 by john new Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted August 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 9, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, john new said: Agree with the above. Some visitors love high-level TV set style boxed cameo layouts to give eye-level viewing, not my favourite, and some are definitely too low. I would suggest a height you are comfortable either standing at or sitting on a high, kitchen/bar type chair to operate. Standing all day is surprisingly tiring. Gauge how comfortable your personal height is against your ironing board or kitchen worktops, check that for height and adjust up/down as appropriate. My current layout is an ironing board height plus about 70mm. UK Kitchen work surfaces are in the range 870-910 (720 + legs + worktop). Ikea are a bit different as the cabinets alone are 800mm, a set of which I have under my layout. My layout at home is 960mm (38") but started of at 30" and has been raised twice. Edited August 9, 2019 by melmerby 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 The answer is the height that is most comfortable for you to operate it. One suggestion I have seen is the height to your armpit minus about a foot to enable you to reach across the layout as a maximum. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, asmay2002 said: The answer is the height that is most comfortable for you to operate it. One suggestion I have seen is the height to your armpit minus about a foot to enable you to reach across the layout as a maximum. That's very similar an empirical method for setting the height of engineering workbenches, which involves putting one's hand up to the chin and then setting the bench height from the position of the elbow. Jim 4 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 Some very good advice about height to suit the owner/operator, but the other person to consider is the viewer, which isn’t easy! Eye-height, even considering only adults, varies very widely. Wheelchair users have been mentioned, and at the other end of the scale are the really tall people, well over 6ft, so eye-height maybe over 66 inches. There probably isn’t a perfect answer to meet all needs, as is proven by cash-machines, the height of which is set very carefully, after much research, but which I find are always set a little bit too low to be ideal for my eye-height (I’m about 5’11” tall). But, the screen height of a cash-machine is probably not a bad guide, if you want to cover the same demographic as banks try to cover. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 I remember sitting down to watch a S gauge layout one year at York show. It was at table height and had an arc of chairs laid out in front. It was a nice change and slowed down the people who were watching. I think the operator was sat at the side. Marc 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted August 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 9, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Nearholmer said: Some very good advice about height to suit the owner/operator, but the other person to consider is the viewer, which isn’t easy! Eye-height, even considering only adults, varies very widely. Wheelchair users have been mentioned, and at the other end of the scale are the really tall people, well over 6ft, so eye-height maybe over 66 inches. There probably isn’t a perfect answer to meet all needs, as is proven by cash-machines, the height of which is set very carefully, after much research, but which I find are always set a little bit too low to be ideal for my eye-height (I’m about 5’11” tall). But, the screen height of a cash-machine is probably not a bad guide, if you want to cover the same demographic as banks try to cover. Exactly why when visiting shows I dislike many of the TV set style cameos, and get a problem from others with low level lighting rigs - the pelmet is often in the way of my sight line as I am over 6ft tall. Too low (for operating) leads to back ache, cash machines for me are also generally set too low. I can’t remember the layouts but at recent York shows I have seen layouts where due to the chosen height operators were struggling to see over the backscene for operations, one was even having to use a step stool to be tall enough. Ultimately your call, your comfort for operating, you will be with it the whole show, a visitor can walk on if they don’t like the height you’ve picked. Edited August 9, 2019 by john new 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted August 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 9, 2019 As Steve and Andy have said, a height that is comfortable for you. My present exhibition layout is table top height, and I sit down to operate it. I find standing all day then having a three or four hour drive after packing up very tiring. I think everyone would like to see me driving safely after a show where I am not too tired. The kids love it as it is at their height, and their mums and dads like it as they do not have to lift them up. Very tall people don't seem so keen, but they can bend down for a couple of minutes, or find a chair and sit in front. I am behind it all day. Selfish, maybe. 4 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdr Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 the point of an exhibition layout is to entertain the visitors, but there is also the thought of how to make that happen. It must be viewable for all but also able to convey the view that the exhibitor is after. After all it's the exhibitors view that made the layout and all the thought processes and designs were either from memories or pictures that captured the idea to start with. You will know what height to make it when you see what you've made. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted August 10, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 10, 2019 1 hour ago, rdr said: the point of an exhibition layout is to entertain the visitors, but there is also the thought of how to make that happen. It must be viewable for all but also able to convey the view that the exhibitor is after. After all it's the exhibitors view that made the layout and all the thought processes and designs were either from memories or pictures that captured the idea to start with. You will know what height to make it when you see what you've made. I disagree, the point of a model railway exhibition is to show the public and fellow enthusiast what members of our hobby are capable of by displaying our achievements. I think all visitors have a telly these days for entertainment. How do you make a layout viewable to all? A 3ft 6 in child has a totally different angle of view to that of a 6ft 6in man. Layouts should be made at a comfortable height to operate and work on. How many hours/days/weeks does it take to build an exhibition layout? How many hours is someone operating it at a show? How many minutes does a visitor view it? Whose comfort is the most important? 2 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdr Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 it is a major undertaking to operate a layout in an exhibition for one day, let alone two or three, so i take my hat off to all who make the effort to not only exhibit but also construct. We must remember who actually pays for the exhibitions, without the visitors whether allied to the hobby or not and at whatever age, there would be no exhibitions. You could say a layout at 50 - 60 inches high is designed to give a certain look when viewed at that height and children could be lifted up to view it, but then who lifts the wheelchair bound adults and not everyone is 6ft tall. I have a friend who is chair bound and used to love doing the rounds of the local ish exhibitions, but the trend of smaller but higher layouts that entice you to look closer to it, are totally out of bounds to him. He rarely goes to the shows now and i saw the interest die off for him over the years because of this viewing problem, which is really sad. I attend exhibitions to see the quality of work, but most of all i want to be "entertained". I'm quite critical but fair, and appreciate the effort that has been made to get to this point. "whose comfort is the most important" you make your own mind up on that one. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted August 10, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 10, 2019 It's a matter of compromise to satisfy the range of possible viewers but you could say that a model railway is a work of art and the artist's concept of how it should be viewed trumps everything. For instance you might be relying on a building blocking the view of something the viewer shouldn't see. So, if you care about the viewing angle in that way then set it at the height you need, accepting that it might not suit everyone. Obviously the layout can be set at different heights for working on it and viewing it. That shouldn't be a big problem. So a high viewing height doesn't necessarily mean it will be difficult or tiring to work on. Seating or standing operation shouldn't make a difference to viewing height - you can buy or build a seat of the required height and transport it with the layout. The seating could be height-adjustable and that might inspire the ultimate solution to exhibition viewing height: Mount the layout on gas struts so it can be raised and lowered on request! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 3 hours ago, rdr said: We must remember who actually pays for the exhibitions, without the visitors whether allied to the hobby or not and at whatever age, there would be no exhibitions.... I attend exhibitions to see the quality of work, but most of all i want to be "entertained". I'm quite critical but fair, and appreciate the effort that has been made to get to this point. I think these are very important points and are something that some layout operators seem to forget when they chat to their mates or fellow operators at an exhibition without ensuring the frequent movement of trains. Those who are watching are generally there to be entertained and whilst it may be prototypical, they don't actually want to see the hour in the middle of the day when there was no activity on the branch line on the shunter was in the local pub having his lunch. They want to see a train arrive at the station and another train depart before they move on to viewing the next layout. However, layouts of any height can provide that enjoyment to a section of the population. I think what is important is that an exhibition manager books layouts that have a range of operating heights so that there is something for everyone: some layouts with a low operating height that appeals to children and those in a wheelchair and some layouts with a higher operating height that may be appreciated by those who are six foot tall. That's why I agree with Clive's point below. It's not possible to make a layout that can be viewed by all in comfort. The tall person can bend down, the child can be lifted up, but if you want to take account of those in a wheelchair then you'd have to go with a lower height. 9 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said: I disagree, the point of a model railway exhibition is to show the public and fellow enthusiast what members of our hobby are capable of by displaying our achievements. I think all visitors have a telly these days for entertainment. How do you make a layout viewable to all? A 3ft 6 in child has a totally different angle of view to that of a 6ft 6in man. Layouts should be made at a comfortable height to operate and work on. How many hours/days/weeks does it take to build an exhibition layout? How many hours is someone operating it at a show? How many minutes does a visitor view it? Whose comfort is the most important? Ultimately, I agree most with Clive's point that I have highlighted in bold. An exhibition provides an opportunity for someone to come along and spend five or ten minutes admiring something that has possibly taken its builder several years to construct. The subject matter of the layout, whether that be scale, era or whatever won't appeal to all, so the fact that it isn't necessarily comfortably viewed by all shouldn't be a major problem. I therefore think that comfort for the operator should be the main driver in determining the height of each layout. Since operators vary in height, so to should their layouts and therefore sometimes children will have to be lifted up and sometimes tall people will have to bend down. As long as the exhibition provides variety, there shouldn't be a problem. Public enjoyment should be met by operating the layout well and in a professional manner. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JiLo Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 12 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said: As Steve and Andy have said, a height that is comfortable for you. My present exhibition layout is table top height, and I sit down to operate it. I find standing all day then having a three or four hour drive after packing up very tiring. I think everyone would like to see me driving safely after a show where I am not too tired. The kids love it as it is at their height, and their mums and dads like it as they do not have to lift them up. Very tall people don't seem so keen, but they can bend down for a couple of minutes, or find a chair and sit in front. I am behind it all day. Selfish, maybe. Im the opposite to Clive, i'm more comfortable standing, after a bad back injury a few years back. My layout is set around 42", but the backscene is topped at 5ft as one of my operators is smaller than my 5'8" height Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 I use adjustable height trestles while I am building the layout. By doing that you will find a suitable height for you. I have operated a couple of layouts that use folding bar stools for the operators which hopefully makes operation less tiring. I have also seen a couple of layouts with short folding legs which are designed to sit on top of a table. Gordon A 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TheQ Posted August 10, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 10, 2019 Children trying to pull themselves up so they can see, using the layout front edges , are a danger. Speaking to a wheel chair user at our last show, he preferred about 3ft to 3ft 6inches. But it does depend on you style of layout, if you are building a flat earth layout with buildings scattered around you need to see from above to see it all. The problem with letter box layouts is, it's only good for the correct height person.. I use an adjustable height "ironing stool" with backrest.. To sit and operate. My own layout is on a hill side so the front is about 40 inches, the back can be up to 50inches so even with short viewing Height more of the layout can be seen. I do like a presceinum arch , but not letter box style, there is nearly 3ft between the front top of the layout , and the bottom edge of my arch / pelmet / lighting box. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 10, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 10, 2019 I suppose the height you exhibit a layout at depends on the viewpoint you intend it to be seen from, which has implications for the lighting, sight lines, and general presentation. Problem is that the viewers, being human beings, don’t come at a standard height. This can be overcome on higher layouts by providing a stepped viewing platform on which children and small adults can stand while their taller brethren stand a little further back and look over their heads. An ex-squeeze was of the sub-5’ persuasion, and unable to use much of our kitchen; I’m aware of the issues! Which is of no use whatsoever to wheelchair users. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted August 10, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 10, 2019 My layouts are all displayed at 54 inches. Now clearly that is high and does not assist those in wheelchairs. However this height is comfortable for me and as already been said, exhibiting can be tiring for the operator and this height helps me cope with a long day. I also make sure I have a handout for the layout and will chat to anyone but in particular will chat about the layout with wheelchair users in conjunction with the handout, which I hope offsets the inability to view. My layouts are built to be viewed at this height in a cameo type of format and this height suits them best. Most seem to be happy and at my last exhibition a lady thought it was great that she was looking directly into the layout. Having the subject matter at eye level certainly works for me. Height has it's advantages. Rob. 5 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
long island jack Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 My American layouts are 52", I've taken photos of the layouts and put them on a CD, to give to any wheelchair visitors . my micro layout Brewery sidings have 19" legs, this sits on the tables provided at exhibition. Ray 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 36 minutes ago, The Johnster said: I suppose the height you exhibit a layout at depends on the viewpoint you intend it to be seen from, which has implications for the lighting, sight lines, and general presentation. Problem is that the viewers, being human beings, don’t come at a standard height. This can be overcome on higher layouts by providing a stepped viewing platform on which children and small adults can stand while their taller brethren stand a little further back and look over their heads. An ex-squeeze was of the sub-5’ persuasion, and unable to use much of our kitchen; I’m aware of the issues! Which is of no use whatsoever to wheelchair users. There can be no right answer to this but I believe that CMRA supply periscopes to its member clubs to offer at exhibtions so that people with a low eye height (for whatever reason) can comfortably see the higher set layouts. Perhaps we should put out chairs in front of layouts and "demonstrate" them to the next audience of comfortably seated spectators at scheduled times. I'm not being entirely serious but I have seen photos of Bill Banwell and Frank Applegate's famous pre-war Maybank Railway with a "The Next Demonstration Will Be At .." sign clearly visible. Maybank was a main line terminus to traverser layout, almost certainly the first such to be exhibited at model railway shows, and I believe the operating sequence of four arrivals and departures with shunting took about 15-20 minutes to run through. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 10, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 10, 2019 And then presumably needed some down time to set the stock up and position it for the next session. I suppose it’s the same principle as screenings at a cinema. I hadn’t considered periscopes, which are an inventive way of addressing the wheelchair issue. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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