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martin_wynne

25 miles Carstairs to Edinburgh with no brakes?

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I was a shunter in the past, and looking at the above photo, I would say the valve is in quite a vulnerable position for an important piece of kit !

In the past, those kind of things were out of harms way, somewhere under the middle of the carriage

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Looking at that picture,  it seems to me they have made the red pipe merely a control pipe for the distributors which in fairness it always had been on on two pipe system but if there is a problem with the main res pipe or if the vehicle is part of a single pipe train the control of the brake and the supply of air to the brake cylinder is all done through the red pipe.

This looks like something I'd more likely encounter on my central heating system than a safety critical part of an express trains braking system 

Even if its found that the incident was not down to the equipment I do not feel that this is a good system ..

WHY !! Is nothing an evolution of good British practise anymore just cheap crap developed for other countries railways

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Hi Folks,

 

I have if upon good authority that it is known that the failure of brake system continuity is a known issue on the TPE Nova 5 sets from at least 18 months ago.  CAF and affected TPE staff were suspended pending D&A testing back in mid 2018 following unsolicited parking brake activation on several sets in pre-service testing. Lots of new trains, not necessarily safe.

 

Glad I'm out of it all !

 

Gibbo.

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12 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Of the Caledonian Sleeper stock, all I know is that they have Scharfenberg couplings. The detail of the brake control arrangements are not in the public domain.

 

11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The brake pipe isolating cock is the low mounted valve on a horizontal pipe immediately to the left of the bottom of the gangway - it was discussed some time back in another thread when I wondered what it was and expressed concern about it being mounted so low down.  It is visible, in the closed position in the photo linked below. (which was originally linked in the Caledonian Sleeper thread).   The isolating cock is approximately level with the bottom of the gangway to the left of it and vertically below the ETH female connector.  It is in the closed position in the photo linked below and is clearly visible if you click on the link or v can otherwise enlarge the photo. incidentally the phoy to shows a test run, nota. train in public service.  I understand from conversation with another forum member who confirmed that it is the Brake Pipe isolating cock that the letters 'BPIC' indicate 'Brake Pipe Isolating Cock' .

 

What is not clear is whether or not the air pipes through the Dellner coupler heads self seal when they are on the rear vehicle although - I'm told - it is probable that they do and that if a breakaway occurs there is a mechanism in the coupling which prevents them self sealing.  Perhaps the RAIB Report will clarify that one way or the other unless any other members of the forum have more complete information on this aspect. 

 

PS. I've just remembered that having observed Class 387 splitting it would appear that the couplings self seal on a planned separation of vehicle (unless there is an isolating valve controlled from the cab?).

 

https://mark5812.smugmug.com/UKpicturesclassorder/Rolling-Stock/i-p45ktvB/A

 

 

The couplers are of standard Type 10 Scharfenberg design but in this case manufactured by Dellner. They are very widely used on fixed formation/multiple unit trains all over the world, with great success, but in this application I don't know how the locos are coupled to the coaches. I presume there is some form of adaptor coupler and separate hoses?

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There's a drophead version fitted to the sleeper 92s and 73s, air pipes plug into the rear of the coupling when in use

 

Jo

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3 hours ago, Steadfast said:

There's a drophead version fitted to the sleeper 92s and 73s, air pipes plug into the rear of the coupling when in use

 

Jo

Thanks, I couldn't find a photo of that.

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10 hours ago, russ p said:

WHY !! Is nothing an evolution of good British practise anymore just cheap crap developed for other countries railways

 

Roger Ford of Modern Railways has a number of what he calls Informed Sources laws; one of which is something along the lines of the attractiveness of a railway product to a TOC/NR/DfT is proportional to the distance its manufacturer's HQ is from the UK.  He's tended to use it in reference to signalling products after Manchester South, Horsham, Portsmouth etc but there might be some rolling stock candidates emerging too.

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Posted (edited)

A "loophole" that needs fixing!

 

It is most disturbing to read of what appears to be the neglect of carrying out, what for well over 100 years, has, and still is one of the most crucial duties in railway operating practice.

The industry has had to learn from numerous incidents throughout its history. From the minor to the calamitous, these "lessons" have been key to the introduction of even more safety devices and working practices. In turn, these have been partially or fully automated to alleviate the element of human error. 

 

With the degree of on-train monitoring and modern technology available, is it plausible that a means of ensuring a static brake test is implemented, confirmed and recorded might soon be developed? This might also encapsulate a continuous monitoring of the brake integrity throughout the journey.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Right Away

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1 hour ago, Right Away said:

 

With the degree of on-train monitoring and modern technology available, is it plausible that a means of ensuring a static brake test is implemented, confirmed and recorded might soon be developed?

 

I would have thought this is already possible? Does not OTMR monitor brake pipe pressure?  If so it would be easy to see the characteristic uncommanded momentary drop in brake pipe pressure  at the time you would expect a continuity test to be conducted.

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And if its found the crew did a correct brake test and this still happened afterwards????

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17 minutes ago, Bruce Depot said:

And if its found the crew did a correct brake test and this still happened afterwards????

 

Then, hopefully, the RAIB investigation will establish what did happen and they will share it in good time.

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The only thing that I find interesting is that the new stock was not specified with EP brakes from the start. All locos since the 58 have EP brakes anyway, no direct air valve in the cab anymore, so it would not be beyond the ability to modify them to work EP coaches.

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Hi Folks,

 

It is my observation of the modern world, and not just the railways, that there is a misunderstanding of the difference between what may be defined as complex system and what be defined as a complicated element of a system.

 

The railways have for a long time been operated as complex systems, however they were made up from lots of simple elements that as a whole contributed to that complex system. In more modern times the world in general, along with the railway as a whole, have been somewhat simplified as systems, that is they are less complex, yet these simplified systems use much more complicated elements to achieve their objectives.

 

The bottom line for me is that, the less parts a machine has, the less likely it is to fail, period.

 

Gibbo.

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6 hours ago, Titan said:

I would have thought this is already possible? Does not OTMR monitor brake pipe pressure?  If so it would be easy to see the characteristic uncommanded momentary drop in brake pipe pressure  at the time you would expect a continuity test to be conducted.

Yes. Brake pipe pressure, and the speed of change in pressure are recorded. So you can tell the difference between a loco brake tap being opened or one 40 wagons back, for example

Jo

 

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On 14/08/2019 at 08:37, Right Away said:

A "loophole" that needs fixing!

 

It is most disturbing to read of what appears to be the neglect of carrying out, what for well over 100 years, has, and still is one of the most crucial duties in railway operating practice.

The industry has had to learn from numerous incidents throughout its history. From the minor to the calamitous, these "lessons" have been key to the introduction of even more safety devices and working practices. In turn, these have been partially or fully automated to alleviate the element of human error. 

 

With the degree of on-train monitoring and modern technology available, is it plausible that a means of ensuring a static brake test is implemented, confirmed and recorded might soon be developed? This might also encapsulate a continuous monitoring of the brake integrity throughout the journey.

 

 

 

 

 

As a matter of historical fact the need for a test of the full continuity of an automatic brake has not existed for any more than, possibly, c.60 years.  Such a test was definitely required in the 1960s reissue of the General Appendix but it did not exist in the predecessor documents except possibly in accordance with the Instructions of individual Companies.  Some parts of the Brake Regulations were revised in 1954 but I can't find any amendment referring to brake continuity testing dating from that year although there might well have been a separate circular.

 

The earlier Instructions required the Guard to open the brake setter in the rear most brakevan (on passenger etc  trains) and listen for the inrush of air.  The only check applying to any vehicles marshalled behind the rearmost brakevan was solely to observe that the various pipe connections between vehicles had been properly made.  In my experience - admittedly for many years prior to 1966 from the other side of the fence it was unusual (even Post 1960) to see a continuity type test carried out on vacuum braked trains, it only really came to teh fore with teh introduction of the 2 pipe air brake system.

 

That of course makes no differeence to teh railway of today where there will of course be nobody working in the relevant grades who were in railway employment prior to 1960.

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Surely there was a General Appendix (GA) instruction for the working of air brakes? I joined LT in 1970 and great emphasis was made on the need for a brake continuity test before a train left a depot or had been coupled or uncoupled  during a journey. the earliest rule book I have is a 1956 LT re-issue of the 1933 LPTB book, I'm sure there's a section in there on the working of the automatic air brake. When I find it I'll copy it to here. I no longer have my BR rule book but may have a GA book lying around

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A Caledonian ECS is reported as dividing at a crossing at Rutherglen 

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18 minutes ago, roythebus said:

Surely there was a General Appendix (GA) instruction for the working of air brakes? I joined LT in 1970 and great emphasis was made on the need for a brake continuity test before a train left a depot or had been coupled or uncoupled  during a journey. the earliest rule book I have is a 1956 LT re-issue of the 1933 LPTB book, I'm sure there's a section in there on the working of the automatic air brake. When I find it I'll copy it to here. I no longer have my BR rule book but may have a GA book lying around

Automatic Air Brakes were added to the GA in Supplement No.2 (to the 1960 General Appendix) in March 1968 and at that time there was what was known as a 'Simple Brake Test' which effectively tested the continuity in some circumstances.  The Continuity Test as we know it today and described as such, also including a widened range of circumstances in which it is required, was not introduced until Supplement No.4 which was published in 1971.

 

No doubt prior to then there would have been individual Regional/specific rolling stock related Instructions but whether or not they used the term 'Continuity Test' I don't know although I'm sure there would have been some sort of test as it had seemingly been established for the vacuum brake (see my earlier post) by 1960

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1 hour ago, Talltim said:

A Caledonian ECS is reported as dividing at a crossing at Rutherglen 

Only problem reported on ScotRail's Twitter feed was a 'broken down train at Rutherglen' at 15:14 today which was moved 'back into its siding at Polmadie' by 15:53. No other details except it affected GCent-Lanark / Edin via Shotts

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Both sections of the low lander sleeper are showing at platform and ready to go on Real-time trains as I type. So if it did have a problem it’s been sorted. 1500 seems awfully early to be taking the ECS across to Edinburgh too. 

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3 hours ago, Talltim said:

A Caledonian ECS is reported as dividing at a crossing at Rutherglen 

 

2 hours ago, keefer said:

Only problem reported on ScotRail's Twitter feed was a 'broken down train at Rutherglen' at 15:14 today which was moved 'back into its siding at Polmadie' by 15:53. No other details except it affected GCent-Lanark / Edin via Shotts

 

We were told an empty Mk5 sleeper rake had become divided across a junction at Rutherglen whilst on a 5Z73 Polmadie-Craigentinny.  Subsequently it seems the 73/9 became detached from the coaches Dellner to Dellner, and they were shunted off the mainline back into (presumably) Polmadie.

 

Resulted in 1V70 1500 Glasgow Central-Bristol being cancelled from Glasgow and started from Edinburgh with another unit, as well as diasruption to other shorter distance trains.   . 

Edited by Covkid
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14 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

Both sections of the low lander sleeper are showing at platform and ready to go on Real-time trains as I type. So if it did have a problem it’s been sorted. 1500 seems awfully early to be taking the ECS across to Edinburgh too. 

May have been going to Craigentinny for wheel turning?

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12 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

 

We were told an empty Mk5 sleeper rake had become divided across a junction at Rutherglen whilst on a 5Z73 Polmadie-Craigentinny.  Subsequently it seems the 73/9 became detached from the coaches Dellner to Dellner, and they were shunted off the mainline back into (presumably) Polmadie.

 

Resulted in 1V70 1500 Glasgow Central-Bristol being cancelled from Glasgow and started from Edinburgh with another unit, as well as diasruption to other shorter distance trains.   . 

 

Thats rather serious. Dellner couplers are used everywhere and well known. They shouldn’t be parting unexpectedly. I wonder if it was another software fault with the coaches?

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