Plymouth - Laira, Friary & Cattlewater

[dogbox321]

Hi all, I’ve always had an interest in railways in the Devon area (as eventually I would like to do a model railway based on the area), but one thing I have never really had much of an understanding of, is the operations around Laira, Plymouth Friary and Cattlewater.  We recently went on holiday, and I saw the little that remains at Friary, and it probably raised more questions than answers.  Hence the start of this thread.

 

For example:

 

–  ECS’s for the Waterloo Exeter trains.

Where did they go when they reached Laira?  Did they go straight through the HST sidings to the washing area, or via the speedway?  And at that point, did the mainline loco change ends or did a shunter take over?

Likewise,  I seem to recall on the odd occasion seeing some of  the coaches in Lipson sidings.  But again, was this normal practice?   Did they go via the speedway and did the locomotive do the move, or a resident Class 08?

 

-Mount Gould Jcn/ Train Washing – Were trains washed on approach from Laira, or as they headed back into Laira?  I have seen some information stating that to run round locomotives went to Friary, but was this always the case, did Friary get used to hold stock in busy times -awaiting a route through either the carriage washer, or even just to get the stock back into the main Laira Depot?

 

-TPO Stock, I “recall” was always stabled in the HST sidings, but again to leave or arrive, either the mainline locomotive would need to either run round, or have a shunter attached, unless there were instructions permitting a propelling move?

 

-Fuel Tanks - Movements to Laira from Tavistock.  I would expect it was a Tavistock shunter that took the Wagons to Laira?

 

-Freights for Cattlewater/Friary – the process/route involved.  For starters did they use the speedway?  Did trains go direct from the mainline, or were they always tripped from Tavistock Yard?  Was there any form of signalling, token’s etc.?

 

-Friary, for starters, I would really like to see track plan(s) for the 1970’s – 90’s.  I have seen a few photos on the internet, but they don’t really “fit” together.  I recall me and my father going past the gates and a stone wall around  a freight depot in Plymouth, on a detour trying to get from Laira to the station! Plus there being some of the 1980's Red/Grey railfreight wagons in there.  I have also seen some photos with the likes of the old Red/Grey Freightliner 30’ Containers in there!  So did FFA/FGA’s ever make it to there?  Likewise – what were the main commodities that Friary were used for – I have seen a couple of Photos of mineral Industries PCA’s, but weren’t there also a Cement Terminal at Cattlewater?  Did any freight come from Cornwall to there, and go Lipson - Mount Gould?

 

Thanks for any information in anticipation.  I hope this thread can be used to illustrate the operations in this area of Plymouth. 

 

Best Wishes,

 

C.

[pb_devon]

Details of the various private sidings and freight connections on the Cattewater branch are in Plymouth’s Hidden Railways by Paul Burkhalter Twelveheads Press 2017.

 

[Fat Controller]

Paul Bartlett's site has quite a few views of Warwells and Warflats at Friary, carrying stuff like Bedford lorries.

Not sure if the Par- Park Royal Freightliner attached/detached a portion at Plymouth.

[dogbox321]

Hi thanks.  In a couple of photos I have seen, there were Freightliner 30 foot Containers on site, so perhaps they came off that.  Just done a quick web browse the train did not last very long, but it did stop at Plymouth!  Suppose on top of that is - whether the whole train went into Friary, or whether there was a trip working to get the wagons in and out?  Paul Bartlett has a photo of a 20' on a lorry, with a crane loading/unloading it at Par, and a photo of a 20' at Friary.

 

I just find the area very interesting, as to what went where.  

 

Regards,

 

C.

Edited August 18, 2019 by dogbox321
New information

[KeithMacdonald]

<pedantic mode>

It's "Cattewater", not "Cattlewater"

</pedantic mode>

 

Anyway, the Cattewater end of the Turnchapel branch line (wharves and station) has some unique modelling opportunities, as the RAF Sunderland flying boats were based very close-by.

 

Cattewater branch line

 

R.N.A.S. Cattewater Seaplane Station (a.k.a. Mountbatten)

 

Is a 1:72 Sunderland kit close enough to OO gauge?

 

1:72 Sunderland kit

 

More recently, Professor Barry Cunliffe (a noted archaeologist) organised a dig at Mountbatten, and found pre-Roman Phoenician remains. That could be an even older opportunity (for ancient shipping modellers). For anyone interested in GWR and Southern shared locations, the branch line to the Ocean Quay station is still just visible in the tarmac, where the line crosses Richmond Walk. The actual Ocean Quay station site is now occupied by the flats and buildings at Mayflower Marina.

 

Ocean Quay Station

 

Cornwall Railway Soc. has some useful pics of the area.

 

Plymouth Millbay, Friary and Stonehouse

 

[Gwiwer]

Quote

ECS’s for the Waterloo Exeter trains.

Before the Dartmoor route was severed these ran to Friary in service so any e.c.s. would have been a shunt-back from there.  When they terminated at North Road they had to be kept the same way round so which ever way they went in they had to come back the same way.  I don't recall whether they actually did run in to Laira or not.

 

Post Dartmoor closure these trains terminated at Exeter St. Davids and reversed via the Waterloo Siding there.  After resignalling they simply ran round in the platform and departed whence they came unless the platform was required for other services in the interim.  

 

Some were WR stock and others SR stock.  I believe the rolling stock diagrams were designed to have each region's own come back at night.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Gwiwer

[Re6/6]

Dogbox, after digging deep into RMweb here's a link to a thread on the Cattewater line that I started back in 2012. 

 

Some very interesting stuff went on down there! Regrettably all now disappeared (Cattewater). The track that ran as far as the scrapyard may still be in place.

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Re6/6

[Fat Controller]

Re the Sunderland; the model's 1/72 scale, and 4mm scale is 1/76.2, so it's perhaps 5% too large. I wouldn't worry about that myself.

[Mallard60022]

Dogsbollocks I think you are talking about diesel days by the sound of things? Is that the case? Sunderlands etc. would then not be relevant. 

There is some great info about the Cattewater Branch on a Video, including diesel days, that I have but the last person who said they wanted to borrow it never bothered contacting me again after saying he wanted it. I am reluctant to have that same thing happen again but it is here to be loaned out to a careful borrower. I can give you more information if you wanted to know more of what's on it.

Phil

 

[brianusa]

Its all a sorry state these days but I am lucky enough to have seen it when it was all active and before it became a glorified yacht marina.  Very busy in those days with B4s in evidence along with an odd O2 now and again with long trains from Friary when the station and yard was active.  Nowadays there hardly enough commercial shipping to keep the docks open, let alone a railway.  If indeed there is some shipping business anymore?

    Brian.

[Kris]

26 minutes ago, brianusa said:

Nowadays there hardly enough commercial shipping to keep the docks open, let alone a railway.  If indeed there is some shipping business anymore?

    Brian.

 

There is still commercial shipping entering the harbour. There is still tanker and cargo vessels arriving on a daily basis (not always both though). 

[pb_devon]

Re6/6, the track remains to the EMR scrap handling depot, but hasn’t seen any rail traffic in years. The remainder of the branch is slowly disappearing under development.

[Re6/6]

End of the line at EMR in 2013.

 

[Mallard60022]

Has the OP gone AWAL like so many these days? Not wasting by precious breath any more on this one.

P 

[brianusa]

The only 'action' these days seems to be rail inspection trains and the like which venture up to the buffers at Friary yard now and again.  Its sorry sight these days to see the desolation of this area and what replaced an elegant building which had outlived its usefulness.

      Brian.

[pb_devon]

18 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Has the OP gone AWAL like so many these days? Not wasting by precious breath any more on this one.

P 

Thats a bit unkind? He was here on Sunday morning.

[chris p bacon]

19 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Has the OP gone AWAL like so many these days? Not wasting by precious breath any more on this one.

P 

 

Here Sunday which isn't that long ago.

 

But he might not have appreciated being called.

 

On 18/08/2019 at 17:35, Mallard60022 said:

Dogsbollocks I think you are talking about

<snip>

Phil

 

 

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, pb_devon said:

Thats a bit unkind? He was here on Sunday morning.

Probably, however the last time I attempted to help someone with an interest in this Area, I spent quite some digging out info and then a long time trying to find an old Video I have of the Cattewater Branch and area. Tried contacting the person several times and got nothing.....just saying!

I'm fed up with being 'kind' these days as you tend to get taken advantage of.

However, yes I probably was, but it is already Tuesday; maybe he is on nights or poorly so I apologise. 

There you go. Just letting off a bit of steam...……….we shall see.

43 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Here Sunday which isn't that long ago.

But he might not have appreciated being called.

 

Wasn't that his Webname?     Oops, must wear my specs next time. Hope he has a sense of humour. 

Ducksarse.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Waraqah]

8 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Probably, however the last time I attempted to help someone with an interest in this Area, I spent quite some digging out info and then a long time trying to find an old Video I have of the Cattewater Branch and area. Tried contacting the person several times and got nothing.....just saying!

I'm fed up with being 'kind' these days as you tend to get taken advantage of.

However, yes I probably was, but it is already Tuesday; maybe he is on nights or poorly so I apologise. 

There you go. Just letting off a bit of steam...……….we shall see.

Wasn't that his Webname?     Oops, must wear my specs next time. Hope he has a sense of humour. 

Ducksarse.

That's Mister Dogsbollocks to you Phil.

[brianusa]

If you dig up anything interesting Phil, put it here.  I still find anything to do with the old place interesting!

     Brian.

[Mallard60022]

Come on Dogbox, shake a leg lad. My Vid is waiting.

P

[dogbox321]

On 20/08/2019 at 09:12, chris p bacon said:

 

Here Sunday which isn't that long ago.

 

But he might not have appreciated being called.

 

 

 

Hi, thank you very much for many of the responses so far, and I am sincerely sorry for lack of replies - unfortunately I have had lots on at work, the internet has been down, 2 kids, moaning wife and lots of other things on the go, balance.  I have also been burning the candle on the model railway, as I wanted my 5 year old to be able to see it, and operate it during the school holidays.  Unfortunately that has been and nearly gone, so am hoping to be able to run something in the October half term, so apart from the odd prusal of RMweb - otherwise I can look on it for hours, I disciplined myself this week to use my free time (and time I should be asleep!) to work on the model railway!  Last night/this morning it were 3am!   Picture of the latest work below (Fuel point and run-round loop)!

 

 When I looked a few days ago, some people had sent some replies, but to do them justice I wanted to have good look at the replies, and try to work out what is appropriate, how things were done etc., before replying, as the least I can do is understand what people are discussing, and discounting items such as the Exeter Waterloo ECS's, which as per one of the responses is outside my time period, but interesting all the same, and possibly useful for Bachmann 42's and 43's, and I would imagine that was before Laira's current depot and the speedway!?

 

Like I say - my main period of interest is 1980's - current, but I find the whole area fascinating, and something that is hard to find out about, and will get harder and harder over time. 

 

Re6/6 - nice photo at the end of the line, but do you know the operation in order to get there?  One of the biggest questions is what the speedway is used for and its operation - is it's primary use for the use of traffic passing Laira to get into Friary/Cattlewater and effectively part of the national infrastructure, or as part of the depot?  So does the likes of the EMR working use this, or have to pass through Laira Depots sidings.  Likewise, does it need authority from Laira Depot to use it,  plus did a train such as the EMR have to reside into Tavistock, to await permission to proceed.  Likewise upon arrival at Friary - is it then signalled by stop boards, GWR section C working, a token arrangement or what?  Are there any propelling moves involved too?

 

Best Regards,

 

C.

 

p.S.  Never been called the dogs before, but I have been called worse! 

 

[pb_devon]

Have you seen the signalling map on OTT? https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/exeter

That shows all movements to beyond the washer are signalled from Plymouth Panel. I would guess there is a Stop Board into Friary from there.

[dogbox321]

14 hours ago, pb_devon said:

Have you seen the signalling map on OTT? https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/exeter

That shows all movements to beyond the washer are signalled from Plymouth Panel. I would guess there is a Stop Board into Friary from there.

 

Hi ya - thank.  Just had a look - so I take it Signals 316 & 367 are on the speedway then.

 

Just looking at 5C95:

 

 

So I take it the carriage wash is beyond 365 Signal?  And after returning through Mount Gould Jcn., will either go into the shed for maintenance, or into the HST sidings?

 

There must be quite a few conversations to get trains in and out.  I.e. Laira to tell the Signaller, ready for the train to go to the washer, and then afterwards to tell the signaller its ready to go from the washer, and then for Laira to say where they want the train to go/give acceptance for the train to enter the depot!

 

Regards,

 

C.

[pb_devon]

Google Earth in 3D mode is useful as you can see some of the signals.