Southern Railways font

[ColinK]

Hi,

 

Does anyone know what font Southern used for their lettering?

[sem34090]

Do I?!

 

As far as I can gather it depends on the period and exactly what you're looking to put lettering on.

[sem34090]

Bloomin' typical! I do a Google search for this, then click on this thread hoping it'd be useful only to be met with this!

 

So... Does anybody know what font the Southern used for station signage and for loco numbering and lettering in the 1930s? Actually, I know that the answer is "on locos it was sign-written, on signs it came out of some sign-writer's pattern book" but I'm trying to find the closest thing I can.

 

I've already been told that the station signs did not use Gill Sans and looking at a few examples there do seem to be differences.

[Nearholmer]

For enamel signs, you might need to compile an alphabet from examples, Which shouldn’t be too difficult.

 

Assuming that the signs were all made using a single typeface, which may not be the case!

 

Anyway, here are some letters and a figure ‘5’, and, as you say, this definitely isn’t Gill Sans. I wonder if it might be a ‘made up’ face, devised by the Southern DO or the sign-makers - the firm is still in being (Wells) and might have old artwork. The ‘R’ looks very uncomfortable!

 

 

[sem34090]

Making an alphabet could work... Thanks for the idea Kevin!

 

Now, where to find those letters and characters not normally used on signs...

[eastwestdivide]

There are online tools to find a near match from a photo, e.g. What The Font.

Although trying it just now with that Platform 5 sign, it didn't find anything with that resembles @Nearholmer 's "uncomfortable R".

[sem34090]

I'm currently trying to get as many characters as I can together. So far I think I'm only missing 'Z', '?', '!', '-' and a few numbers. Obviously lower case is a non-entity here so I'll use that for some variations.

[Nearholmer]

The SR also used another face on some enamel signs, one with rounded ends on all the limbs of the letters.

 

I associate that one with ‘southern electric’ signage, but what I can’t remember without checking is whether it was used more widely than that and/or whether it might actually have been an early BR thing.
 

To get a full picture, you’d probably need to look for station exterior signs too, the very big ones that were fixed to fascias and places like gable-ends.

 

Theres an interesting one here http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/freshwater/ looks like hand painting onto brickwork in a sort of extended face.
 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Nearholmer

[45655]

Good morning afternoon, campers!  Seeing this topic has finally persuaded me (after a long career as a lurker) to set up a username so that I can contribute something on station signs (not loco and rolling stock insignia, about which I know very little).

 

First, with apologies, I'm going to refer this thread to Pedant's Corner. A printer's typeface is a family of type of a particular design.  In metal typesetting, a font was a particular size, weight and style of a typeface.  (Thanks Mr. Google.)

 

Over the years I've amassed quite a collection of images and dimensions of SR enamel station signs.  The staff of some well-known heritage railways probably thought I was casing the joint, but there was some method in it as I was aiming to get some replica signs made.

 

I quickly concluded that  the lettering style used by the SR for its enamel station signs had been nowhere near a competent typographer.  Many of the proportions look rather odd compared with, say, Johnson or Gill Sans  - the R referred to by Nearholmer is a case in point - and there is considerable variation in detail between examples and between manufacturers (there were several). As a general rule the weight seems to have become lighter as time went on. The patterns for the individual signs will have been made by hand and my best guess is that they started off by replicating signwriting practice, possibly from a pattern book.  The pointy ends were probably easier to cut out.

 

The SR muddied the waters after WW2 by producing some 18" x 6" dished door plates with a much finer, nearly-but-not-quite-Gill-Sans, version of the style.  These are frequently mis-described as BR plates by the railwayana trade.

 

There were a couple of exceptions to the general rule.  First, there was an early, very heavy version of the lettering with squared off ends.  This is not common but the Bluebell has a couple of examples from West Hoathly on display.  Second, enamel poster headers used an outlined version which initially had rounded ends but later (probably in the 1930s) changed to pointy ends.  This was also used for the "Southern Railway" title on posters.

 

I hope that's of some help.  The best advice I can offer to anyone trying to model these signs is to find an original which dates from about the time you're interested in and copy that.  Heritage railways are a good source of inspiration but beware!  There are a lot of modern replica signs about which may introduce their own little variations...

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Interesting.

 

I thought the “rounded ends, sometimes with outline” was later, rather than earlier, than the pointy ends.

 

I’ve got a few bits of SR paperwork if I dig about, and I’ve got a feeling that the ‘rounded ends plus outlining’ appears on things like timetables from the late ‘30s onwards.
 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Nearholmer

[sem34090]

Here's my attempt at putting a basic version of the font together from photos of real signs found online. Note that the 'SOUTHERN ELECTRIC' legend at the top of the sign on the right isn't my creation; it's a font that was made by Iain Logan and is available to download here; http://www.zoo.co.uk/iainlogan/commercial/index.html. The Target shape and arrow are part of the font - the target replaces '9' , a left-pointing arrow is '(' + ')' + '+' and a right-pointing one is  '=' + '?' + '@'.

 

What I've 'created' (hardly) is a fairly bold version, some signs use a lighter weight version - Compare this to the photo above, for example;

But I think it captures a general sense of the font. It needs a lot of refinement really, but with a bit of playing in MS Publisher or a similar piece of software one ought to be able to produce something that is at least usable on a model railway. I'm now working on making it able to be downloaded by people here. I may put some time into reworking it with a bit of guidance from @45655 when he next has the (dis)pleasure of my company. Speaking of which, I have a period telephone directory to replicate...

A font like this will never, never, be perfect as there is quite simply an almost endless number of variations from one sign to the next. Slightly differing weights, slightly differing character shapes; I've included two 'A's and two versions of '1', '3' and '4' alone!

Some of the characters are very messy; I was working from photos found online after all and to do this properly would require someone with some actual graphic design skills (i.e. not me!). @45655 (Again) has already pointed out the issues with the 'L', 'N' and the spacing around the standard 'A' so i will probably resolve these at some point.

 

Hopefully, once I've managed to upload a link to download it, someone finds this useful though!

Edited September 7, 2020 by sem34090

[Nearholmer]

Looking good so far, and certainly the sort of thing that would look the business at 1:76 or 1:43.

 

The "with outline" version with square-cut ends, rather than rounded ends, I'd forgotten.

 

All the arrows I could find on line had three, rather than four fletchings, but the version with four may well be a legitimate variant.

 

BTW, I kept finding pictures of a big Southern Electric sign that I think must be at Alton, presumably a preservation prank, or is it a replication of a real one?

 

Being close to computer illiterate when it comes to this sort of thing, I shall be hoping for someone to commercialise this, so that I can order some signs for Birlstone and Paltry Circus.

 

Next debate: the shade of green.

 

Which I raise, because it was distinctly bluer than the BR(S) colour for enamel signs.

[sem34090]

I suppose I could always knock some up for you - wouldn't take a few minutes.

 

The sign at Alton is a preservation-era addition and is, I believe, based on a sign that was at Wokingham with the places swapped to match Alton.

 

The pre-war shade, and possibly the shade used for signs throughout, has got a BS number and name, but I'm afraid I can't remember it; Ask @45655!!! (That's going to be my stock answer from now on for all things Southern, probably...)

[Nearholmer]

The colour certainly changed. I used to have a few BR(S) ones, including a hotdog from DEPTFORD, now all sold to pay for 0 gauge trains, and put alongside PLATFORM 5 or a genuine SR target the difference was really noticeable, and not I think down to dirt.

[45655]

Quite a lot to catch up on here.

 

First, on the subject of poster headers, I drew my conclusion on the basis, first  that survivals with round-ended lettering tend to be rather more faded and battered than the (very few) survivors of the pointy-ended version and, second, that the pointy-ended version (a technical term) was certainly used on posters in the 30s and 40s.  There are many more survivals of the round-ended version but I put this down to their having become near-universal early on and not needing replacement until after nationalisation.  If anyone can shed any more light on this I'd be very interested.

 

On the green colour, early SR signs do tend to be bluer than later ones but I think this may be partly due to fading.  I have certainly seen an early doorplate which has faded to a washed-out grey green colour.  I think the intention was to replicate the SR no.1 green paint shade used on buildings before the War.  The post -War BS equivalent of this was Lincoln Green (shade 276 of BS381c) - the old London Transport country bus colour - but with different media and paint mixed from raw ingredients there must have been quite a lot of variation in practice.

 

SR totems etc came in two distinct shades. Post 1948 they were a dark green similar to the SR shade but following the 1956 corporate image revamp they changed to a much lighter green.  Presumably this was intended to replicate the SR no. 1A green paint shade used on buildings after the War and perpetuated by BR as Brilliant Green (shade 221 of BS381c).

 

I do like SEM34090's generic SR alphabet.  It looks pretty good to me.  The Medstead totem takes its cue from the replicas currently in place at the station but for some reason these used the short version of the totem - the originals were longer. This was a fairly late example - 1937 - with a lighter weight of lettering, as you can see.  (An original surfaced in a railwayana auction a few years ago.  I missed it! Grrr...)

[bécasse]

There were some blue signs (with white lettering) as well as green ones. One is familiar with the "CAR STOP" signs being blue but there were also a few examples of that same blue being used for totems in the earliest days of electrification. Either only a handful of locations had them experimentally for evaluation or most were eventually replaced by green versions, but Woolwich Dockyard certainly retained several examples (but there were some green ones there too - post war replacements?) into the late 1950s.

[Nearholmer]

SR, rather than BR(s) totems, in genuine, rather than degraded from green, blue?

[sem34090]

The blue car stop numbers were, I thought, an LSWR hang-over? Blue signs on the South Eastern therefore sounds rather odd.

Edited September 8, 2020 by sem34090

[bécasse]

The car stop signs were blue throughout the suburban electrified network which largely got the third rail in the 1920s including the SE Division. The blue totem signs at Woolwich Dockyard clearly dated from that era and, at least as far as the eye could judge it, were the same colour blue, definitely not faded green. The other signs on the station "WAY OUT" etc were standard SR green at the time. Most people passing through the station on trains wouldn't have noticed, the station was largely in a cutting between two tunnels, of course, but once you did notice they stood out as being different and when I went down the Woolwich line I used to look out for them. They were eventually replaced with BR-style logos which were green, around 1960 at a guess.

A few other SR enamelled signs were different "colours" - "ALL SEASON TICKETS TO BE SHEWN" signs were white on black (with green wooden surrounds) and some safety signs were red on off-white.

Edited September 8, 2020 by bécasse

[roythebus]

a couple of people on the Isle of wight Steam Railway wanted to reproduce the Southern typeface and done some considerable research on the matter.

 

They came to the conclusion is that almost every sign was different, whether it was in the typeface, width or height of letter, style of letter. I seem to remember it was an article in the Island News magazine maybe 5 years ago. The research was probably done by Terry Hastings and Tim cooper, both IWSR historians.

 

the simple answer is there is no standard typeface! A standard type style maybe!

 

[sem34090]

I think, though, that as @45655 (him again...) have discussed there are enough common elements between signs that a generic 'Southern Railway Font' can be developed for use by modellers. Particularly on larger signs and in larger scales it is increasingly noticeable, for me, that certainly this would be better than trying to use a proprietary font such as the famous Gill Sans or even a derivative of Johnston.

Edited September 8, 2020 by sem34090

[Nearholmer]

The R and the position of the crossbar in the A seem to be particularly variable across these signs, don't they? And, to my eyes the N seems to vary in width slightly relative to the other letters.

 

Looks as if the best that will ever be achieved is either a single "typical, but not universal" letter-set, or a letter-set that has multiple versions of several letters and several numbers.

 

I won't even try to speculate on whether particular variations tend to occur in combination ..... they probably do, because an individual sign-setter-out will have personal quirks, but it would lead to (or require pre-existing) insanity to attempt an analysis.