Jump to content
 

First Group wins the West Coast.


Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I doubt any train would be able to bat round the curves at Wolverton and Berkhamsted at current line speeds without tilt.

Unless there is some plan to increase the cant on the fast lines?

Are the 110mph 350s restricted on the bendy bits?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 06/12/2019 at 09:25, jim.snowdon said:

At the moment, I would see that as being replacement simply for the sake of replacement. Mechanically, the Pendolinos should have at least a decade of life left in them. The situation may be different with the power electronics, but re-engineering that with more up to date components is not the world's most difficult job.

 

Jim

They are replacing the 221s which will then go to Cross Country.

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Well I didn't know TPE were intending 125 running.

That's not quite what the article is saying. The important part is not the speed that the train can achieve, but the average speed. That is a combination of the sped that can be achieved, the distance over which it can be maintained, and the rapidity with which the train can change its speed. The last is the acceleration and deceleration that it can achieve, and is the factor behind this story.

 

Jim

Link to post
Share on other sites

Non tilting 125mph north of Preston - Ha Ha.

 

Buckets and sponges will be handed out at Lancaster on northbound non tilting trains to all passengers to spew in & clean up afterwards.

 

Avanti !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The last Virgin operated train is due to depart Euston for Wolverhampton in a couple of minutes.

 

Thank you Virgin, you have never let me down.

 

Brit15

 

 

Edited by APOLLO
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, royaloak said:

You cant have travelled on them very often or you were plain lucky then.;)

 

Quite a few times actually - mainly the Lancaster - Wigan - Warrington corridor, so always a choice of trains if the odd one was late / cancelled. A few times also to London / Edinburgh.

 

The WORST outfit is Northern, simply pathetic at the moment, and getting worse. They need "putting down", (the management that is).

 

Brit15

Link to post
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Quite a few times actually - mainly the Lancaster - Wigan - Warrington corridor, so always a choice of trains if the odd one was late / cancelled. A few times also to London / Edinburgh.

 

The WORST outfit is Northern, simply pathetic at the moment, and getting worse. They need "putting down", (the management that is).

 

Brit15

So because Northern havent got enough units and the ones they have are basically foo um knackered its Managements fault and nothing to do with the DaFT letting previous franchises on no growth term plus train crew having to be trained on all the new trains meaning they cant do their booked jobs leading to crew shortages across the board etc, yeah okay but it wouldnt make any difference who was running it they would still have the same problems!

  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
11 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I doubt any train would be able to bat round the curves at Wolverton and Berkhamsted at current line speeds without tilt.

It will be interesting to see what speed they achieve around Weedon, even with tilt the Pendo’s can’t do 125. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, royaloak said:

So because Northern havent got enough units and the ones they have are basically foo um knackered its Managements fault and nothing to do with the DaFT letting previous franchises on no growth term plus train crew having to be trained on all the new trains meaning they cant do their booked jobs leading to crew shortages across the board etc, yeah okay but it wouldnt make any difference who was running it they would still have the same problems!

 

Daughter travels daily Wigan to Liverpool - the line was electrified a few years ago, service was OK till recently. She moans service cancellations now daily - shortage of drivers etc . It's pathetic. They have even cancelled trains tomorrow (sunday) citing on their web site lack of drivers.

 

They have new units, was on one today a 3 car 3something or other (a CAF unit) - I don't look at the numbers anymore.. Bloody hard seats and it runs like a washing machine. The old 319 coming home from Liverpool was swift, silent and comfortable. Old and reliable.

 

Just not good for the fare paying punter. Cancelled trains due to lack of drivers = shyte management full stop.

 

Last virgin op train on her way as I type, a special, Headcode 1Z47

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S28567/2019-12-07/detailed

 

Sail on silver girl !!!

 

Brit15

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, APOLLO said:

 

Daughter travels daily Wigan to Liverpool - the line was electrified a few years ago, service was OK till recently. She moans service cancellations now daily - shortage of drivers etc . It's pathetic. They have even cancelled trains tomorrow (sunday) citing on their web site lack of drivers.

 

They have new units, was on one today a 3 car 3something or other (a CAF unit) - I don't look at the numbers anymore.. Bloody hard seats and it runs like a washing machine. The old 319 coming home from Liverpool was swift, silent and comfortable. Old and reliable.

 

Just not good for the fare paying punter. Cancelled trains due to lack of drivers = shyte management full stop.

 

Last virgin op train on her way as I type, a special, Headcode 1Z47

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S28567/2019-12-07/detailed

 

Sail on silver girl !!!

 

Brit15

Drivers dont have Sundays in their working week so are under no obligation to work them, it isnt worth the agro for Management to try and get Sundays into the working week because DaFT will not sanction the costs involved (how much would you want to have to work Sundays) plus a 7 year franchise means they wont get a return on that investment so why bother, by advertising they are short of drivers they can let people know what trains are cancelled so people can rearrange their travel arrangements rather than turn up at the station to find out the train is cancelled, its the least worst option.

 

Drivers and Guards have to be released from their normal duties so they can learn the new train, driving characteristic, fault finding etc so who covers their normal duties while they are learning the new traction?

Plus the speed these new trains are being rushed into service means the crew training also has to be rushed, no point turning a new train out on its diagram if half the booked crews dont sign the thing yet is there.

 

Virgin trains have 2 traction types (221 and 390), Northern have lots (142, 144, 150, 153, 156, 170, 319, 320, 321, 333, plus all the new stuff) see the problem?

 

But its still the Managements fault isnt it!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry Royal Oak - not good enough.

 

YES it is managements fault. 100%. Paying passengers demand and deserve trains to run, management should ensure sufficient assets and trained personnel are available to provide said service.

 

I worked, as a gas engineer on standby duties many perhaps hundreds of Sundays (and all other days and nights) on both rostered and emergency work, all hours, all weathers. I was management, we, at ALL levels knew what we were doing back then, labourer up to MD, and care for the customer was our motto.

 

We provided (and still do) a 24/7 service to every customer, and we didn't down tools and off at midnight like our railways seem to do today.

 

Brit15

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Sunday working was part of my contract, and of most others also at the customer facing front end in the gas industry. As it should be.

 

If Sunday working not in yours as a driver then our whole railway system (on a sunday) is an absolute joke. (as far as the fare payer goes). Services advertised, tickets sold, trains run at the whim of the staff wether to turn up or not, what a way to run a railroad !!.

 

Not your fault Royal Oak, it's managements - all the way to the top. (just WHO is at the top these days ?).

 

Brit15

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

 

 

6 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Drivers dont have Sundays in their working week so are under no obligation to work them, it isnt worth the agro for Management to try and get Sundays into the working week because DaFT will not sanction the costs involved (how much would you want to have to work Sundays)

 

Why should there be any extra cost?

 

When I went self-employed in 2003, I was quite happy to work Sundays for no extra/higher rates - it meant that I could have a day off during the week for doing stuff - such as shopping and playing golf - which was quieter than a weekend. 

I'm now no longer self-employed, but still enjoy (quiet) days off during the week as I generally work every other weekend.

 

I worked in manufacturing  for about 25 years that had very strict rules with overtime rates.

Such as: Time and a 1/3 during the week, time and 1/2 on Saturdays - up to 12noon. Double time after that on Saturday and Sunday.

But you only got Saturday rate if you'd done 4 hours overtime during the week and only allowed to work Sundays if you'd worked  4 hours Saturday.

 

Holiday pay was based upon the average of the past 4 weeks, and the overtime opportunities miraculously appeared increased in the few weeks leading up to Summer and Christmas holidays. Yet all the production schedules were geared to include holiday periods.

As much as the extra was welcome, I never based my outgoings on overtime and didn't feel the need to regularly supplement my wages - I only did overtime when I felt there was a genuine need to do so to meet deadlines. Usually on site during a customer shutdown having to install/commission equipment in a limited time window.

 

Very little of those manufacturing workplaces remain - I wonder why?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

That's not quite what the article is saying. The important part is not the speed that the train can achieve, but the average speed. That is a combination of the sped that can be achieved, the distance over which it can be maintained, and the rapidity with which the train can change its speed. The last is the acceleration and deceleration that it can achieve, and is the factor behind this story.

 

Jim

I understand it is about the operating envelope of the new trains whose acceleration is better than other trains enabling more time to be spent at full line speed, but also the artlicle talks about 125 without tilt for the whole line between Preston and the North from next summer.

 

As the gap between the slowest and fastest trains to use a line reduces so the case for tilt reduces as the cant can be maximised for all trains.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To demonstrate the general public's take on the railways, I was on a EMR service between Oxford Rd and Piccadilly today, a lady was late getting to her Virgin service.

 

Discussion began about the transition "First have bought the trains from Virgin, they have made Virgin remove all their markings from the trains"

 

Whilst we train enthusiasts understand the franchise concept and the handover process, many of the general public believe the railways to be completely private, to be bought and sold like this and that it isn't that Virgin lost the franchise but they chose or had to sell it to First.

 

And no I didn't put on my best nerd voice and put them right, even at crawl speed I did not have the will to educate.

  • Friendly/supportive 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Not your fault Royal Oak, it's managements - all the way to the top. (just WHO is at the top these days ?).

 

The same who have been for at least a decade, DfT.  They are the ones who specify how much can be spent, service levels, etc. and on a subsidized TOC like Northern that means what the DfT specifies is what you get.

 

If the DfT won't increase the subsidy to allow for additional drivers and other staff, then you run a railway with no spare capacity so when you suddenly get a bunch of new rolling stock you have to take employees from existing services to train them.

 

31 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Why should there be any extra cost?

 

Because moving Sunday service from a "work it for overtime/extra hours" to a regular schedule inherently means you need additional employees.  Otherwise those x drivers who you now force to work a Sunday as regular work have nobody to replace them on the shifts they no longer provide during the M-S service.

 

And as any company that grows to rely on overtime knows, overtime costs less than hiring additional workers.

 

31 minutes ago, newbryford said:

When I went self-employed in 2003, I was quite happy to work Sundays for no extra/higher rates - it meant that I could have a day off during the week for doing stuff - such as shopping and playing golf - which was quieter than a weekend. 

 

Great, so you are a train driver.  Who drives your train on the weekday you are now taking off?

 

Your example only works because you are shifting the work to a different day, not moving from a 6 day operation to a 7 day operation.

 

I suspect if you were still working M-F and then told you also had to work Sunday you wouldn't be quite so happy...

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

To demonstrate the general public's take on the railways, I was on a EMR service between Oxford Rd and Piccadilly today, a lady was late getting to her Virgin service.

 

Discussion began about the transition "First have bought the trains from Virgin, they have made Virgin remove all their markings from the trains"

 

Whilst we train enthusiasts understand the franchise concept and the handover process, many of the general public believe the railways to be completely private, to be bought and sold like this and that it isn't that Virgin lost the franchise but they chose or had to sell it to First.

 

Which is precisely the problem - because the public is ignorant on how the railways operate, and more specifically how it is really DfT pulling the strings in the background, it means DfT remains unaccountable because the public blames the wrong people.

 

If the public were to instead blame the current government in charge on any given day, you might stand a chance at having stuff change - nothing motivates a government more than falling poll numbers.

  • Agree 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

There is an excellent write up on another forum as to why new trains are sat idle whilst there's a driver shortage. Basically the drivers conversion course takes 7 days, and they are only allowed to work 12 out of 14 which would include rest days anyway. So courses are getting cancelled to solve the short term need to avoid trains being cancelled, but that obviously doesn't solve the long term fix. 

 

Now you could cite "poor management" as an excuse but if I were to work overtime on a Sunday 12hr Nightshift before a bank holiday or a Wednesday day for 12 hours I get paid the same. So I'd respectfully acknowledge that anyone on better terms wouldn't really want to give up their terms and conditions to have to put up with more generalised terms in order to get the job done, because I wouldn't.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, newbryford said:

I worked in manufacturing  for about 25 years that had very strict rules with overtime rates.

Such as: Time and a 1/3 during the week, time and 1/2 on Saturdays - up to 12noon. Double time after that on Saturday and Sunday.

But you only got Saturday rate if you'd done 4 hours overtime during the week and only allowed to work Sundays if you'd worked  4 hours Saturday.

 

Lucky you, Saturdays are time because they are an ordinary working day, Sundays are time and a third because they are overtime, when I worked at SWT Sundays were normal time because they were part of the working week.

 

As for you working Sundays when you were self employed, well its in your own best interest to look after your own Company isnt it!

Link to post
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Yes, Sunday working was part of my contract, and of most others also at the customer facing front end in the gas industry. As it should be.

 

If Sunday working not in yours as a driver then our whole railway system (on a sunday) is an absolute joke. (as far as the fare payer goes). Services advertised, tickets sold, trains run at the whim of the staff wether to turn up or not, what a way to run a railroad !!.

 

Not your fault Royal Oak, it's managements - all the way to the top. (just WHO is at the top these days ?).

 

Brit15

Well Sundays isnt in my contract so I am under no obligation to work them (I have worked 37 Sundays outy of 48 but thats another story), what you are failing to comprehend is that most drivers (and guards) have Sundays outside the working week so dont have to work them if they dont want too, the reasons for this have been gone into many times and I cant be bothered to write it all again just  for it to be ignored yet again, but if the DaFT want Sundays in the working week then they will, have to pay for it because if Sundays are brought inside then I will have a day off during the week, who is going to work that duty when I am now day off, or are you proposing to increase the working week so the Sunday which was overtime is now an ordinary day so my weekly hours increase?

 

Lets say Drivers are expected to work 1 Sundays out of 3, (in my link we work 2 out of 4 but that increase the costs even more) that means they will be having a day off during the week they are now working Sunday, who works that duty, the answer is another driver, so for every 4 Sundays you bring in to the working week you need an extra driver, so you instantly increase your headcount by 25%, then there is the new drivers wages, Pension, holiday pay, uniform, equipment, training, Management (more drivers= more Managers) etc so there are your increased costs, now please tell me why I am wrong as you seem to know so much about how the railway works!

  • Agree 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...