When were the GWR Toads last used?

[Marshall5]

Probably the LLPG's Midland van rather than the 3 plank as that was usually the crane runner.

Cheers,

Ray.

[tomparryharry]

On 19/09/2019 at 17:22, Miss Prism said:

 

AA21 and a few AA23 (in BR days) were.

 

 

AA21 type were (are) a ministry -funded batch of 200 vehicles. In preservation, they are a highly-prized vehicle, being Vacuum braked. Such is their desirability, I sketched out a conversion kit, to allow fitting of the standard 21" cylinder to an ordinary AA23 van.  I haven't got around converting the van yet, sadly.

 

Ian.

[Rivercider]

It has puzzled me for some time, that if GWR toad type brake vans were decided to be to dangerous for use as a brake van, why then were still permitted to be used as a brake van when in civil engineers use? Presumably because the journey length was usually shorter, so the risk to the guard was of less duration?  

Although many toads were converted for various other duties once in departmental those vans coded ZTO, ZTP, or ZTV were still used in the same manner as an ordinary traffic brake van, albeit on engineers services. 

 

cheers

[bécasse]

12 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Presumably because the journey length was usually shorter, so the risk to the guard was of less duration?  

 

When in use as civil engineer's riding vans (a practice which continued for many years after they ceased to be used as brake vans), only civil engineer's staff travelled in them comfortably ensconced in the cabin, the train would have had a separate van (or two) for the guard which would not have been Toads. The brake column was retained to provide a "parking" brake.

Incidentally, it was the low veranda sides coupled with the low roof and lack of internal handrails that made them dangerous, it was all too easy to be pitched over the side, receiving a nasty bang on the head from the roof on the way, if the van lurched suddenly (something commonplace on loose-coupled goods trains). I only rode on one in traffic once, and I was very grateful that, at the first stop, the driver invited me to join him in the comparative safety of the footplate (where there were at least handrails to hold on to).

[ianmacmillan]

A previous post wondered what a double balcony GW toad would look like.

 

 

This one only exists in cyberspace.

It is for Microsoft train simulator.

[Fat Controller]

11 hours ago, ianmacmillan said:

A previous post wondered what a double balcony GW toad would look like.

 

 

This one only exists in cyberspace.

It is for Microsoft train simulator.

Reminiscent of the first 20t Stanier-designed 20t van on the LMS, apart from the absence of duckets. Such an absence would mean that a brake-standard would be required on both balconies...

[tomparryharry]

The only balcony i can think of is a 'double length' balcony.  This is specifically a P-way toad, with the extra length being taken up by the plough horns, and the cant adjusters. The ships wheel is the depth adjuster, being able to bear down on the ballast, whilst the van is in motion. I've seen one somewhere, but I can't remember where or why. 

[RobMG]

On 15/08/2019 at 11:51, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks for the info everyone,

 

I am reassured that they would e correct for my model of the period 1960-2!

 

Any further info/pictures would be appreciated.

 

Best regards

Paul

 

Judging by the variation in dates in the replies, I would say once again that nobody really knows for sure as usual.  I wouldn't give it a moments worry. Just carry on and use your toads. Nobody can really argue.

I have found that asking for information on most past railway questions reveals very little in terms of confirmation.  Whether it be colour shades, chimneys , tenders  etc etc...  Just do what you feel looks right . All the very knowledgeable experts now are long gone.  

[The Stationmaster]

On 14/10/2019 at 12:26, RobMG said:

 

Judging by the variation in dates in the replies, I would say once again that nobody really knows for sure as usual.  I wouldn't give it a moments worry. Just carry on and use your toads. Nobody can really argue.

I have found that asking for information on most past railway questions reveals very little in terms of confirmation.  Whether it be colour shades, chimneys , tenders  etc etc...  Just do what you feel looks right . All the very knowledgeable experts now are long gone.  

You really ought to read the thread through.

 

Fact - at a date sometime in 1965 they were barred from being used as brakevans for traffic use train working purposes  for the reason I explained.  Sorry I can't give you the month and day but even in 1966  I couldn't find anybody who could tell me that to that level of detail  and I was working there then with various routes of access to original sources.   

 

Now as a piece of amusement to show what can happen in 1975 I had occasion to 'pull' one of my Guards for being a naughty boy because he returned with our daily trip from Bristol East Depot having pinched borrowed an van in Engineer's use as the brakevan for his train.  His story was that it was the only van he could find but he went a bit red when I reminded him that it was a cold day with frost still on the ground and BR Standard brakevans were notoriously draughty so I knew exactly why he had 'borrowed' that van.

 

And yes, there are still some knowledgeable folk around some of us having been there and done that plus having kept a lot of accurate original records complete with all issued amendments to them.  So no need for cheapskate jibes especially when accurate information has been given in this thread along with various reminiscences.

Edited October 17, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Fact - at a date sometime in 1965 they were barred from being used as brakevans for traffic use train working purposes  for the reason I explained.  Sorry I can't give you the month and day but even in 1966  I couldn't find anybody who could tell me that to that level of detail  and I was working there then with various routes of access to original sources.   

I've just done a totally unscientific trawl through some of my go to sources for layout research pictures. Unfortunately photographers concentrated on the front end but of the brake vans  visible I didn't manage to find a GWR Toad in revenue service after February 1965.

Edited October 17, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[Steamport Southport]

On 14/10/2019 at 12:26, RobMG said:

 

Judging by the variation in dates in the replies, I would say once again that nobody really knows for sure as usual.  I wouldn't give it a moments worry. Just carry on and use your toads. Nobody can really argue.

I have found that asking for information on most past railway questions reveals very little in terms of confirmation.  Whether it be colour shades, chimneys , tenders  etc etc...  Just do what you feel looks right . All the very knowledgeable experts now are long gone.  

 

Lol Wut?

 

So those of us that have spent thousands of pounds on books and spent years doing research are wasting our time then? 

 

We currently have more information at our fingertips than all the experts in the past had access to put together. We are quite happy to help people out. But sometimes we just give a vague answer due to time constraints.

 

All the information is out there in archives, but are we all meant to drop everything and go to the NRM or Kew so we can give someone the exact date that the last Toad was used or the date that 5787 was painted BR black?

 

 

 

Jason, who has a MA in Archaeology and spent about twenty years doing research in dusty rooms about things that haven't existed for thousands of years. Thankfully mostly forgotten as I hated the subject.

[RobMG]

On 17/10/2019 at 15:39, The Stationmaster said:

You really ought to read the thread through.

 

Fact - at a date sometime in 1965 they were barred from being used as brakevans for traffic use train working purposes  for the reason I explained.  Sorry I can't give you the month and day but even in 1966  I couldn't find anybody who could tell me that to that level of detail  and I was working there then with various routes of access to original sources.   

 

Now as a piece of amusement to show what can happen in 1975 I had occasion to 'pull' one of my Guards for being a naughty boy because he returned with our daily trip from Bristol East Depot having pinched borrowed an van in Engineer's use as the brakevan for his train.  His story was that it was the only van he could find but he went a bit red when I reminded him that it was a cold day with frost still on the ground and BR Standard brakevans were notoriously draughty so I knew exactly why he had 'borrowed' that van.

 

And yes, there are still some knowledgeable folk around some of us having been there and done that plus having kept a lot of accurate original records complete with all issued amendments to them.  So no need for cheapskate jibes especially when accurate information has been given in this thread along with various reminiscences.

 

I am very sorry if you thought my reply was cheapskate, I certainly didn't intend it to be, but I have spent many hours at times looking for answers in books , photos, internet, and of course here and other forums.   When I don't find one, I do what I think best, which may often be wrong.  

I think it's best I don't make any comments on here in future, I will just read what others have to say on a particular subject, and leave it at that..

Sorry if I have offended you.

 

Rob  

[tomparryharry]

I wouldn't know when the last Toad left the revenue side. After all, it's not like Evening Star, or Oliver Cromwell. However , places like Cathays C&W did indeed continue to overhaul Toad vans right into the 1980's. !7399 (AA21) remained as the 'site office' at Pontypridd engineers siding (the old cattle dock) until it was moved down to Radyr, as photographed by Paul Bartlett. I do know that when the family moved to Wales in the late 60's, everything van-wise was the standard 20 ton van, 

 

If I was a betting man, I'd say 1964-67. Remember though, that places lost their van allocations as soon as the business changed. Once the diagrams were reduced, the van fleet reduced likewise. Fitted stock remained in service quite a bit longer, however.

 

It's your railway though, enjoy!

 

Ian. 

[Fat Controller]

The most recent view I've seen, which I typically can't find at the present, was taken in 1965 near Radstock. The train was perhaps three 21t hoppers and a 13t one, with a Pannier in charge.

[brianusa]

GWR Toad!

[NCB]

Between 1957 and 1962 I was at secondary school in Stroud; the school bordered the GWR main line about a mile west of Stroud Station. Great for train-spotting!

In all that time cannot remember any brake vans other than GWR toads.

 

The guards seemed to move around the verandah quite comfortably. Maybe they developed the guard equivalent of sea-legs

 

Nigel

[Il Grifone]

On 05/11/2019 at 21:09, brianusa said:

GWR Toad!

 

I've got one of those too! and one with gold lettering !

[KeithMacdonald]

On 14/08/2019 at 21:00, bécasse said:

They were banned from long-distance freights from 1957 because they didn't have duckets.

 

Please excuse my ignorance - what's a ducket?

[phil-b259]

Just now, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Please excuse my ignorance - what's a ducket?

 

A section of the body which extended outwards so as to provide small forward and reverse facing widows to assist guards observing signals (and the train in general)

 

Found on many types of brake vans and some coaching stock too

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Please excuse my ignorance - what's a ducket?

 

The look out on the side on most brake vans and brake carriages.

 

 

Comes from the term "dove cot".

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Please excuse my ignorance - what's a ducket?

It's a small duck, of course.  

[Steamport Southport]

We had a previous thread about duckets. But here is one.

 

 

Used as dove cots but also as watchtowers.

 

https://www.rosscottages.co.uk/the-ducket-northumberland.cfm

 

 

 

Jason

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 17/10/2019 at 18:00, TheSignalEngineer said:

I've just done a totally unscientific trawl through some of my go to sources for layout research pictures. Unfortunately photographers concentrated on the front end but of the brake vans  visible I didn't manage to find a GWR Toad in revenue service after February 1965.

Forgive me if I ramble tonight but I'm unscambling my brain after an afternoon of Grandad duty.

 

Doing another of my unscientific skims through several books to see if I can find a picture of a 78xxx in the context of my layout I accidentally trumped my previous search.

 

Ned Williams has done several books on Black Country railways. I turned a page on the Byways subject and came upon the Bumble Hole Line. For those not familiar with the area it was a double track branch between Old Hill on the Stourbridge line and Blowers Green on the OWW near to Dudley. It was mainly for serving the local industries but also had a series of stations and halts served variously over the years by railmotors, auto trains and one of the last bastions of the Flying Bananas. Its main claim to fame was being home to the last station mentioned in the fade out of 'The Slow Train' by Flanders and Swann.

 

At Windmill End Junction, which was not situated at Windmill End Station but at Baptist End, there was the Withymoor Basin Branch which served a goods depot which later became known as Netherton Goods, although it was not at Netherton or near to the old Netherton station which was demolished to build the Bumble Hole Line or the new Netherton station which later became known as Blowers Green but was actually further from Blowers Green than the old station that it replaced.

 

Confused? Don't worry, this is the Black Country - home to Aynuk and Ayli.

 

Any Road Up, back to the discovery .........

 

A Toad on the Withymoor Branch hauled by Pannier 9614. Date? Picture caption says 10th June 1965.

There is another picture of the same pairing on the branch on Flickr quoted as April 1965. The branch closed in July 1965, so I would expect a few of the local enthusiasts would be taking an interest in its last throes.

 

Withymoor Basin by Prof2940, on Flickr

 

 

[melmerby]

On 05/10/2019 at 23:26, ianmacmillan said:

A previous post wondered what a double balcony GW toad would look like.

 

 

This one only exists in cyberspace.

It is for Microsoft train simulator.

8780 was a double balcony Toad (built in GW style), as was 35983 which was also a 6 wheeler, both probably came from South Wales.

Another double balcony one was 35927 which was a 1943 LMS/RCH design.

 

The AA8 built for Pontnewydd was also double ended but was not like any other Toad on the GWR.

[Miss Prism]

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

8780 was a double balcony Toad (built in GW style), as was 35983 which was also a 6 wheeler, both probably came from South Wales..

 

I've always felt 8780 was more 'Cambrian' style (and design?) than GW. There's a similar vehicle lurking in the background at Oswestry. 35983 is distinctly Barry Railway.

 

Incidentally, whilst I've got no dispute with the numbers 8780, 35983 and 35927 being as you describe, they are all listed in the bible as part of the ragbag of AA16 outside-framers. I guess the numbers were transferred after those old vehicles were withdrawn, but it is very un-GWR-like to re-use wagon numbers in such a fashion.