7mm John Summers iron ore hoppers

[Michael Delamar]

a while ago I asked some questions on these wagons, and got some very interesting responses.

 

Ive searched and searched but that very interesting thread has dissapeared sadly.

 

another question I have on them,

 

Photographs of them close up back in the 60s appear to be non existent.

 

but I can see on old cine footage, that they had decal/sticker with some sort of badge/branding under the letter "U" on the wagon side.

 

Im looking for any decent shots that show what this is, or any more info on this.

 

and as before, any good shots of these wagons, preferably during the steam era, when they had SUMMERS wrote on the side.

 

cheers

 

Mike

[Kenton]

a while ago I asked some questions on these wagons, and got some very interesting responses.

 

Ive searched and searched but that very interesting thread has dissapeared sadly.

As usual Google works perfectly

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9444&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=125

 

or

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26355&start=0

 

are both brought up by a search for

"John Summers" site:rmweb.co.uk

 

I'll leave you to check the many threads on RMWeb for

"iron ore hopper" site:rmweb.co.uk

[Arthur]

 

 

 

I've posted this before but I couldn't find it on any search so here it is again.  The branding under the U is, I think, "NON POOL"

 

 

Arthur

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Delamar]

thanks guys,

 

Kenton, thanks for the links, I had searched for quite a while, using the google and rmweb search engines,

 

but I was getting every thread that had "john" and "summers" in it, rather than "john summers" and sadly still the original thread seems to have vanished. other searched for "birkenhead" "shotton" etc still dont bring it up

one thing that did come out of the original thread was Paul Bartletts photos of them, now on his site. whilst theyre great for a modeller, theyre shots when they carried the BSC livery.

 

 

Arthur thats a great shot, but again it looks slightly different to the ones on the videos. they look as though they have some sort of badge or crest, similar in style and colour to West ham united badge is the best way I can describe.

 

Mike

[Kenton]

but I was getting every thread that had "john" and "summers" in it, rather than "john summers" and sadly still the original thread seems to have vanished. other searched for "birkenhead" "shotton" etc still dont bring it up

one thing that did come out of the original thread was Paul Bartletts photos of them, now on his site. whilst theyre great for a modeller, theyre shots when they carried the BSC livery.

It must be in there somewhere as I don't think Admin actively do much deleting of threads. I guess it may have been merged with another but even then the right combination of inclusive and exclusive terms should bring it up. Of course if it was on a pre RMWeb3 then it may have been cleaned out of the search index by Google and therefore only available on the archive site.

It is sad if really lost as it sounds like it may have contained useful info. I have done a search of most of the RMWeb2/2.5 pages that I archived and couldn't find it there - but again selecting search terms is again a problem.

 

But as always with the web, there are many fine images of historical importance that are posted on sites without captioning that is searchable/collectable by the search engines.

[Michael Delamar]

Arthur, I stand corrected,

 

Ive checked them on the screengrab, they do indeed say Non Pool with a red box around it, there is then 2 yellow dots then the wagon number Id imagine.

shouldnt be too difficult to copy for decals. it looked different as they where passing quickly on the video, when you pause it you can see.

even with the screengrab, I wouldnt have been able to tell what it said without the photo.

 

 

I take it Non pool means not BR wagons?

 

some other questions,

 

first the font of the lettering of SUMMERS. does anyone know what that could be

 

and what colour where these wagons painted, some seem to be normal unfitted grey, but some have a greeny tinge, or could that just be the weathering from the iron ore?

 

cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Iron ore colours are usually variations on rust tones: the solebar of the wagon in the lower picture, and the wagon end on view very much the expected shade. Greenish tinges are more likely the film emulsion degrading a little. Pale side of mid-grey would do it for me. The fonts used in the two photos appear to be different, just to add to the quandary.

 

Non-Pool means that these vehicles are not in general unrestricted use and was applied to many kinds of vehicles. There were either working instructions available to tell the rail staff precisely what any given non-pool designated wagon was permitted to do, or established 'custom and practise' meant that sufficient of the staff were in the know about operating these vehicles.

[Kits from Somerset]

Non Pool means that it canno't be used for other traffic, ie BR or the big 4 could not take them to a coal mine and fill them with coal etc.

[br2975]

"....then 2 yellow dots then the wagon number ...."

.

Is it a "CC" for commuted charge ?

.

I can't be more accurate as I'm not too familiar with these beasts.

 

Brian R

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northeast/sites/deeside/pages/locos.shtml

 

Is this the cine film from which the screen grab came? Plenty of the bogie hoppers still carrying 'Summers' from about 11 minutes, despite it being apparently all diesel operated. Lots of other interesting vehicles too, as usual with steelworks.

[Adam]

I'd go with the 'CC' Brian. The other yellow dot is probably a 'fast traffic' star. As shown in this photo: http://www.gallery6801.fotopic.net/p54768403.html

 

A minor point Mike, but that's a letter form rather than a font (which is a printing term). The wagons would have been sign-written and, while there probably was a drawing to work from, my suspicion is that the painters would be familiar enough with the wagons not to make much use of it. Just to elaborate on the 'Non-Pool' branding. This stemmed from the pooling of mineral wagons at the beginning of WW2. Specialist vehicles such as these were normally exempt and this arrangement continued under BR after nationalisation for PO vehicles.

 

Adam

[DavidBelcher]

I'd go with the 'CC' Brian. The other yellow dot is probably a 'fast traffic' star. As shown in this photo: http://www.gallery6801.fotopic.net/p54768403.html

 

A minor point Mike, but that's a letter form rather than a font (which is a printing term). The wagons would have been sign-written and, while there probably was a drawing to work from, my suspicion is that the painters would be familiar enough with the wagons not to make much use of it. Just to elaborate on the 'Non-Pool' branding. This stemmed from the pooling of mineral wagons at the beginning of WW2. Specialist vehicles such as these were normally exempt and this arrangement continued under BR after nationalisation for PO vehicles.

 

Adam

 

I thought the star branding was only for tank wagons (exclusive of those used for food-grade products); 1 star for unfitted tanks, 2 stars for those with vac brakes and allowed to travel at higher speeds as a result.

 

David

[Michael Delamar]

thanks for all the wonderful info chaps.

 

it would be the style of lettering in the screengrab, which all the photos and film Ive seen (usually late 60s and the period Id be modelling) seem to be that style, rather than the one in Arthurs shot.

 

the screengrab is from B&R videos Wirral steam vol 58. highley recommended viewing of these trains being hauled by 9fs.

 

that archive film on the BBC website is fantastic, I had seen it before (someone posted it on last thread) but it shows more detail in some of the shots, the signwriting on the solebars etc.

 

couldnt imagine the yellow dots to be a fast traffic star, even tho on the videos they appear to be travelling pretty quick behind the 9fs. the wagons were unfitted and ran under class 8 headlamps.

 

another point, Id be modelling ( he says, this is mainly research at the moment ) a train of loaded hoppers, as they ran a train of 9-10 full or around 33 empty. I dont fancy making 33!

 

so id need to look into loading these wagons. would the best thing to load them up be be real iron ore, like we use real coal for our model wagons? if so where would one obtain it?

 

cheers

 

Mike

[beast66606]

Very light blue is what I remember when they 9Fs on them.

 

The iron ore was like ball shot for a musket, a vaguely round clump about 0.5" diameter.

 

Technically Mike they ran to Bidston Dock not Birkenhead - does this produce anything ?

[cctransuk]

couldnt imagine the yellow dots to be a fast traffic star

 

I'm not sure that the yellow star denoted "fast traffic".

 

In BR (and earlier days) PO wagons carried the black concentric Cc on a yellow square, and a small yellow star - I know that the Cc stood for COMMUTED CHARGE and related in some way to payments from the owner to BR (and its predecessor).

 

SWB handbraked tank wagon carried the yellow star so it is very unlikely to refer to "fast traffic"

 

I think that the confusion here is with the much larger stars carried at the RH end of PO tank wagons. I believe that one star may have indicated non-continuous brake, and two stars indicated continuous brake (or "fast traffic").

 

There were a few three-starred tankers - presumably this indicated that the wagons in question could run at passenger speeds.

 

In conclusion, I am absolutely certain that the yellow blobs referred to are the standard Cc and star markings as seen on PO tank wagons.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[craigwelsh]

I assume this site is wrong referring to the yellow star as a 'Pool' symbol http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/6-livy/odds/9-poliv.htm (its certainly bee wrong before).. If it is a star next to non-pool lettering then definitely couldn't be right!

[Michael Delamar]

Very light blue is what I remember when they 9Fs on them.

 

The iron ore was like ball shot for a musket, a vaguely round clump about 0.5" diameter.

 

Technically Mike they ran to Bidston Dock not Birkenhead - does this produce anything ?

 

cheers Dave,

 

nope even searching for Bidston, and all the stations and locations along the line to Shotton, nothing seems to turn up sadly.

 

usually searching for Birkenhead 9fs will bring up shots of locos on the shed.

 

such a shame as it was a fascinating working

 

Mike

[beast66606]

These trains were not fast - they struggled up the bank to Heswall and then had to be strictly controlled on the descent to Shotwick Sidings (when loaded)

[Adam]

I assume this site is wrong referring to the yellow star as a 'Pool' symbol http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/6-livy/odds/9-poliv.htm (its certainly bee wrong before).. If it is a star next to non-pool lettering then definitely couldn't be right!

 

Pass, but it would seem probable. I'm not certain in what I was saying either although in a world where the average freight train wouldn't have done more than 25-30mph, 'fast' is a relative term in any event. The answer may be at the back of one of the Geoff Kent books?

 

Adam

[beast66606]

cheers Dave,

 

nope even searching for Bidston, and all the stations and locations along the line to Shotton, nothing seems to turn up sadly.

 

usually searching for Birkenhead 9fs will bring up shots of locos on the shed.

 

such a shame as it was a fascinating working

 

Mike

 

I know ! - I have an old friend who used to drive them and another old friend who photographed them! - I had a ride when they had 25s on them but remember the 9Fs panting on the bank.

[Arthur]

 

The iron ore was like ball shot for a musket, a vaguely round clump about 0.5" diameter.

 

 

That is not 'iron ore' as such, it's clearly been pre-processed as they often were, but that's a very small size lump to prepare for a blast furnace?  The furnace would get 'choked' so lumps that small would be initially destined for Shotton's sinter plant.  

 

Shotton used to crush it's ore down to 2.5".  In the 1970's Shotton was working an all imported iron ore burden, as it had been designed to do when when the blast furnaces were  erected in 1953 and 1955. Ores were imported from Canada, Labrador, Sweden, India, Venezuela, Brazil, Mauretania and South Africa so the trains would not be carrying a consistently uniform ore.  Imported ores were usually dry in nature and crushed down to around 6" max to ease handling though some ores were almost sand like.

 

Colours were largely tones of rust but they could be near black or purple at one end and mustard yellow at the other. 

 

 

It's pretty heavy stuff, if your gonna load 4mm wagons with it you'd better lay code 100 rail.....

 

 

 

 

Arthur

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Delamar]

 

It's pretty heavy stuff, if your gonna load 4mm wagons with it you'd better lay code 100 rail.....

 

 

 

7mm

 

probably not such a good idea to load them with real ore then

 

Mike

[Michael Delamar]

some shots of 9fs on these trains

 

http://raynortonsrailpics.fotopic.net/p63096096.html

http://raynortonsrailpics.fotopic.net/p62613197.html

 

Mike

[Michael Delamar]

and a usefull period colour shot, note the different shades of each wagon.

 

http://51a.fotopic.net/p57694438.html

 

sometimes you will see a clean newly painted light grey one in a rake, they stand out.

 

Mike

[craigwelsh]

Pass, but it would seem probable. I'm not certain in what I was saying either although in a world where the average freight train wouldn't have done more than 25-30mph, 'fast' is a relative term in any event. The answer may be at the back of one of the Geoff Kent books?

 

Adam

There are certainly pictures of CC and the star at the back of 3 with a note on commuted charge, didn't see anything written though, possibly its in 2 with the tankers. I did find another PO wagon that matches the Bachmann body in the back there though so that was worthwhile .

 

edit: In volume 2 he refers to ".. the commuted charge mark and star are in vertical format on [the tank modelled]" and says that the big stars are comparatively fast traffic markings, two stars cleared for 60mph..

 

10 of these with a 9F would make an impressive sight you couldn't fit on many 7mm layouts!