Some thoughts about the railway

[TheSignalEngineer]

45 minutes ago, RRU said:

So the railway companies are basically “winging it”, knowing full well that if anything goes wrong they are up the creek without a paddle.

 

Peter

 

The TOCs do what they consider they are contractually obliged to provide. It is cheaper to pay the penalties than to provide spare trains and crews. 

FOCs are a bit different as they are a commercial operation as with any haulage company in the UK. They should price according to what they think the risks of non-delivery due to their own failings are under their contract with the customer.

[RRU]

53 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The TOCs do what they consider they are contractually obliged to provide. It is cheaper to pay the penalties than to provide spare trains and crews. 

 

 

The bus/coach companies will always come to the rescue

 

Peter

 

[Rugd1022]

Not always, in some cases they too do not have the resources to help out the TOCs when requested - and no, the railways aren't 'winging it', there are contingencies in place but the resources they do have are sometimes stretched beyond reasonable expectations compared to BR days when thousands of locos, hundreds of spare coaches and train crews were available.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Rugd1022

[TheSignalEngineer]

39 minutes ago, RRU said:

 

The bus/coach companies will always come to the rescue

 

Peter

 

Not that easy nowadays. Bus companies are there to run at a profit. That means either running what you can make money on or tendering for council supported work and school runs. Getting a replacement bus at short notice is almost impossible in most places, as is actually getting a bus full stop. Try getting a taxi at short notice during the afternoon school run. Last time I tried I was told 90 minutes wait. Best chance you have is if the bus companies are obliged to take rail passengers in the event of disruption where they are effectively still at the behest of PTEs/Councils. I assume it is still like that in the Peoples Republic of West Yorkshire, etc.

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

compared to BR days when thousands of locos, hundreds of spare coaches and train crews were available.

Travelling Birmingham to York one morning in the 1980s. First HST north from Bristol to Newcastle had failed at Cheltenham and was awaiting assisting engine.

 

Birmingham Control normally had a spare DMU, on this day a Class 116, sitting in No2 Siding at New Street. Spare crew collared from the staff canteen took it to Derby where they hitched it up to the back of a Class 120, then they returned back passenger to resume the domino game.  A spare Derby crew took it forward and we made it to York in time for onward connections to be made without much delay for the passengers from Birmingham to Sheffield. Meanwhile Newcastle had rustled up a Class 47 and loco hauled set to work to Bristol in the return path of the failed HST. That's only the first half of the story. Sets and crews had to be returned empty to their places of origin and another set provided by Tyseley or Soho for the New Street standby after the morning peak had finished.

 

Try doing all of that in the Privatised, Franchised railway and the TOCs would spend three days arguing the toss over who was paying how much for what before someone acted. Booked XC driver not passed out on local TOC stock, local TOC driver doesn't sign the road past 'X', substitute stock available but not cleared for working booked route of failed train beyond 'Y', XC driver doesn't sign available alternative route from 'Y' to destination via 'Z'........ 

 

How many lawyers and accountants does it take to move a train? The last internal BR Management vacancy list I received before my office was sold off had 41 posts, 3 of which were for people who new how to build and run a railway, the other 38 asked for qualifications in management accounting and contract law. No wonder the fares are so high.

 

Glad I got out of it whilst I still had my marbles, as it was getting like Catch 22. You can only get out by being declared insane, but if you can understand how bad the situation is you can't be insane.

[DY444]

14 hours ago, RRU said:

So the railway companies are basically “winging it”, knowing full well that if anything goes wrong they are up the creek without a paddle.

 

Peter

 

 

Ask yourself a simple question.  What are the two things that the travelling public complain about the most when the annual fares increase comes around?  You know when a BBC breakfast reporter collars passengers (or as they seem to call everyone now - commuters) at a London terminus or more likely Manchester Piccadilly if it's the BBC.  They say it's overcrowded and it's too expensive.

 

So let me ask you how you think the industry can go about providing sufficient trains, infrastructure (especially depot space), and train crew to provide more capacity, spare stock and crew as cover for disruption, reliefs etc, Sundays inside to avoid the reliance on RDW etc, and without the cost going up to either the fare payer or the tax payer?  What precisely do you cut to provide more for the same money?  Wages, maintenance, safety?

 

Everyone always wants more and generally doesn't want to pay for it either directly or indirectly.  I think it was Peter Parker (no not spider man the other one) who said that the public can have whatever railway it is happy to pay for.  That's still true 40-odd years after he said it.

Edited August 31, 2019 by DY444

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

Spare trains and crews to work them are a thing of the past I'm afraid Peter, it costs a lot of money to have people sat around waiting to be put to use. We do still have spare turns to cover for sickness and emergencies but they're much fewer than in BR days. Each TOC / FOC has their own way of providing for this, for example my company rosters us on 'on call' turns where we have a booked starting time, if we don't get called out within four hours we switch our phones off. In these situations there are other things to consider such as the crew's route knowledge and how many hours they may be available for and wether or not they in turn will require a relief crew en route. It's never as simple as it seems!

 

Even if there were sufficient resourses, a given situation might not enable something to be put into place to keep things moving, such as the location or track layout of the incident in question. Hope this makes sense. The last time I failed out on the mainline I had to wait over an hour for assistance, the nearest loco and crew were forty miles away.

The very distant past Nidge as far as most of the British rail network is concerned.  The big innovation has been the idea you mention of what amounts to an equivalent of the US idea of 'call off' spares because Spare men. particularly Drivers, were one of the big cost elements where we spent years gradually trimming them to what we though was the bare bones but then some operators simply did away with them (in exchange for pay and conditions deals in some cases although one or two made a real hash of it and have subsequently been found wanting (usually after the manager who instigated it has moved on).

 

Spare trains and locos is a similar situation as you have instanced and nowadays - which again is nothing new - the rationalised network and lost traffic mean that spare resources simple aren't available and are rarely available v close at hand.  When, in the 1990s I first started dealing with SNCF I was amazed at their profligacy - when a new type of train enters service they have a policy of 100% hot standby availability for the first 4 - 6 weeks then dropping to 50% for a month or so then dropping to their normal level of spares.  Amazingly inefficient to somebody used to BR ways and of course inefficient use of traction resources is a hallmark of the way they work - must cost somebody an absolute fortune.

17 hours ago, RRU said:

So the railway companies are basically “winging it”, knowing full well that if anything goes wrong they are up the creek without a paddle.

 

Peter

 

Not really.  There is I think a perfectly reasonable assumption (and probably the only affordable situation) that within certain limits everything will work broadly as it is intended to work - trains should be reliable, crews should be equally reliable, and the railway itself should be there for them to run.  If one link in the chain fails, for whatever reason, Control (particularly a really good Controller) will find a way round it or at least to mitigate things.  But on what amounts to a long branchline such as that to Scarborough there is rarely going to be much available as an alternative as there will be nothing there to do it the traditional way and 'step up' trains or crews.  That sort of thing is far easier on much busier routes but you can't step up forever.

 

And the $64,000 question with spare anything is how much do you have or need or have to be 'reliable'.  I remember all too well the first Summer Saturday at Westbury when we had a fairly complete Class 50 run service on the West of England - the failures started with the first Down train so we took it off and put something else on.  By the middle of Saturday afternoon we had taken off 16 failed Class 50s - we had used every spare Type 4 we had (and being a Saturday we had about 12), I'd mightily upset Old Oak Common  Driver Alfie Kebble (who Rugd would have known) by giving him a 1000 instead of anything else, and I'd managed to get a single Type 4 over from Bristol, but by late afternoon we were putting back out the 50s which had failed in the morning along together with a wing and a prayer that they might at least get somewhere where a suitable replacement was available if they failed again.  

 

So on that day even a dozen spare locos weren't enough - and that is the eternal question; just how many 'spare' whatevers do you need let alone how many you can afford?

[Rugd1022]

Yes Mike - almost every link at Old Oak had a Driver called Alfie in it! When the turntable was out of action for about six weeks in 1984 (awaiting parts from Switzerland I was told) several locos were trapped for a couple of days so we had to blag a few spare locos from Bath Road and Laira, luckily they were on hand at the time or the numerous Padd - Oxfords and Newburys would have been totally kyboshed.

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And the $64,000 question with spare anything is how much do you have or need or have to be 'reliable'.  

We used to have Nuneaton Drags when the wires were down or other blockages between Birmingham and Rugby. These were often arranged at short notice but to run the full service would need about six crewed up big locos. These were usually borrowed of freight depots. How many Euston drivers signed 56s or 58s I wonder?

[D9020 Nimbus]

One thing I've noticed recently is that the time tabling system suggests very tight connections on quite a few occasions. Take Newcastle to Shildon, changing at Darlington. The changeover time allowed is 6 minutes. Even though there isn't far to walk, the outbound train from Newcastle doesn't have to be delayed very much for the connection to be missed. That means a delay of an hour—two if Northern have a cancellation (not that unlikely). That costs the operators money under "delay repay".

I've also seen a similarly tight time allowed for a changeover at Edinburgh Waverley — a much bigger station and one where you need to look at the departure boards to see what the right platform is. It seems to me that less time is allowed than used to be the case, and in any case, wouldn't it make sense to be a bit more generous?

[Edwin_m]

12 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Ask yourself a simple question.  What are the two things that the travelling public complain about the most when the annual fares increase comes around?  You know when a BBC breakfast reporter collars passengers (or as they seem to call everyone now - commuters) at a London terminus or more likely Manchester Piccadilly if it's the BBC.  They say it's overcrowded and it's too expensive.

 

So let me ask you how you think the industry can go about providing sufficient trains, infrastructure (especially depot space), and train crew to provide more capacity, spare stock and crew as cover for disruption, reliefs etc, Sundays inside to avoid the reliance on RDW etc, and without the cost going up to either the fare payer or the tax payer?  What precisely do you cut to provide more for the same money?  Wages, maintenance, safety?

 

Everyone always wants more and generally doesn't want to pay for it either directly or indirectly.  I think it was Peter Parker (no not spider man the other one) who said that the public can have whatever railway it is happy to pay for.  That's still true 40-odd years after he said it.

Also of course if there were lots of spare trains and drivers hanging around in sidings, the public and the press would be asking why they aren't in service doing something about the overcrowding. 

[DY444]

It's not just random posters on web sites that can't get their heads around economic reality.  Our former MP was ranting about the train service and demanding more seats and more bicycle spaces.  When I said to him that his demand would require more stock or fewer trains in the timetable he couldn't comprehend.  He seemed to think that there was suitable stock standing around doing nothing that could just be used.  He also couldn't comprehend that the existing network has a finite capacity and that longer trains require platform extensions.  He also campaigned successfully against a proposed timetable change which would have split an existing route in two but doubled the frequency on the part serving the constituency.  So he was simultaneously calling for more capacity whilst campaigning against a change which would have provided some.  We didn't get on!

Edited September 1, 2019 by DY444

[caradoc]

I believe Cross Country Trains keep, when available, a spare Voyager at Birmingham New St. Assuming New St is also a crew change point a spare crew is not required, if an incoming service is badly delayed the relieving crew waiting at New St can work the train forward with the spare set.

 

If a spare set was stabled at a location with no booked crew changes however, spare crews would need to be rostered, with enough time to cover the service's hours of operation, plus meal breaks, plus changeover times. The cost would be high, for something that would not be required most of the time.

 

[The Johnster]

There's clearly a balancing act to be had between economic viability on one hand and service reliability when a train fails or a connection is missed because of late running on t'other.  

 

Back in the 1970s, a much younger and slimmer Johnster was the guard on the last service from Hereford to Cardiff on a Sunday evening.  This was a 120 dmu barely able to keep time on the hilly route, and had been delayed (as was not uncommon in those days) by being held at Crewe, it's point of origin, to connect with late running WCML up trains.  It had a booked connection with the last down Paddington-Swansea SWML train of the day at Cardiff, which in turn connected at Swansea with West Wales trains.

 

Our hero took it upon himself to canvas the passengers before we got to Abergavenny for downliners from Cardiff, and informed SM Abergavenny, who informed Cardiff.  SM Cardiff, on the basis of my passenger count, took the decision to let the Paddington-Swansea go to time and rustle up another 120 from Canton, which had plenty, complete with crew (yes, even on a Sunday evening).  This ad hoc train connected with mine at Cardiff and took the downliners, with those travelling beyond Swansea being given a taxi.  

 

It just felt like the sensible thing to do; nobody asked me to do it, nobody criticised or praised me for doing it, and nobody asked who paid for it.  The Swansea punters got home on time, and mine got home eventually, without having to put up in a Cardiff hotel overnight like they would nowadays.

 

It would not happen now for several reasons, not least of which is that there would not be a spare train or crew available at Cardiff deze daze, and even if there was the first question, which didn't even occur to anyone in my tale, would be to ask who paid for it!

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 hours ago, caradoc said:

I believe Cross Country Trains keep, when available, a spare Voyager at Birmingham New St. Assuming New St is also a crew change point a spare crew is not required, if an incoming service is badly delayed the relieving crew waiting at New St can work the train forward with the spare set.

They used to keep a set in the siding between platforms 5 and 6. Crews normally changed at Birmingham, some workings that included the buffet staff and additional supplies. More than once I have been waiting for a late runner to Manchester when the driver has gone over to shunt the spare to the platform and we have gone out more or less RT. The passengers for beyond Birmingham on the late runner have been decanted onto the service following 30 minutes behind and if the unit was the problem it would return to depot from New Street when a spare driver arrived. 

I haven't been on the route for a while so I don't know if this still applies.

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, caradoc said:

I believe Cross Country Trains keep, when available, a spare Voyager at Birmingham New St. Assuming New St is also a crew change point a spare crew is not required, if an incoming service is badly delayed the relieving crew waiting at New St can work the train forward with the spare set.

 

If a spare set was stabled at a location with no booked crew changes however, spare crews would need to be rostered, with enough time to cover the service's hours of operation, plus meal breaks, plus changeover times. The cost would be high, for something that would not be required most of the time.

 

There was reputedly a set - officially booked to maintenance - held on Central Rivers depot in later years but presumably not manned as would have been a 'hot standby'.    Not unusual in my experience to try to 'make' a spare set out of maintenance allocation for busier/peak days and we certainly had a Eurostar set (allegedly) available on that basis at North Pole for Fridays as a result of introducing balanced exams.  SNCF of course carried on in their usual way and simply diagrammed a spare set at various times although it wasn't always there although it existed on paper.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I've checked out the Realtime site and it looks as if there is an early morning path from Barton under Needwood to New Street No1 Siding. It appears that it can run via Alrewas and Rugeley to Stafford then Wolverhampton, Bescot and Soho to New Street. It the continues from New Street to Birmingham International via Soho, Perry Barr, Aston and Stechford then returns to New Street direct. There is an evening path from New Street No.1 Siding reverse of the morning route to Barton under Needwood.  The alternative route for the return is Aston, Perry Barr, Soho and Dudley Port to Wolverhampton. Both seems to be booked differently on different days of the week and can change at short notice or be cancelled and replaced by a STP path to another station if they are short of a set.

 

Routing of the ECS between Barton under Needwood and New Street is arranged to maintain diversionary route knowledge as in addition to the multiple options for the spare set some run via Aston and Lichfield City, some via Whitacre, and some come into New Street via the Lifford Curve.

[RRU]

Moving on. More gadgets.

 

There are two of these between platforms three and four at Scarborough. Anyone know what they are? They obviously do not need to be level.

 

 

There is also this further along.

 

Peter

[Dave Hunt]

Is the last one a parking meter?

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, RRU said:

Moving on. More gadgets.

 

There are two of these between platforms three and four at Scarborough. Anyone know what they are? They obviously do not need to be level.

 

 

 

 

There is also this further along.

 

 

Peter

ETH shore supply by the look of them so presumably stock will be left in the platforms overnight or for extended periods.

[RRU]

On 23/08/2019 at 21:29, a98087 said:

 

the pictures also shows a back drive attached to the point, the purpose being to move the rear of the switch over,

 

Normally its mounted in between the running rails in 3rd rails areas , and outside when there isn’t no 3rd rail

 

dan 

 

On 24/08/2019 at 07:23, jim.snowdon said:

And is something of a British peculiarity resulting from a self-imposed limit on the switch opening that harks back to the days of mechanical operation. So is the flexible stretcher bar, as well as its modern replacement, the tubular stretcher bar, which is a singularly complex piece of kit for a simple task, and uniquely British.

 

Jim

 

Here is a shot of the full installation.

 

[RRU]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

ETH shore supply by the look of them so presumably stock will be left in the platforms overnight or for extended periods.

 

Thank you for your reply Sir. Maybe they are there so that the class 68`s can be shut down during their layover. I will try and get a pic of them in use.

 

Peter

 

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, RRU said:

 

Thank you for your reply Sir. Maybe they are there so that the class 68`s can be shut down during their layover. I will try and get a pic of them in use.

 

Peter

 

Could well be - depends on how long they will be standing there.

[RRU]

Exhaust emissions.

 

Now that some cities have, or are planning to have, clean air zones only allowing vehicles in with Euro 6 emissions, will this have an impact on the railway?

 

What standard are the new trains entering service now up to?

What does it mean for older units and preserved loco`s at heritage railways?

What about steam loco`s?

 

These pics are taken at Keighley during the recent diesel gala. Any vehicle on the road producing that amount of smoke would be stopped as soon as it was spotted.

 

 

 

Peter

[jim.snowdon]

44 minutes ago, RRU said:

These pics are taken at Keighley during the recent diesel gala. Any vehicle on the road producing that amount of smoke would be stopped as soon as it was spotted.

Whereas for some enthusiasts, it is far from enough.

 

Jim