Some thoughts about the railway

[caradoc]

Back to train regulating; Signallers nowadays work with Traffic Management Statements (TMS) which are agreed between NR and the TOCs, and which give clear guidance on how to manage late running. An example from my own experience in Scotland: Down trains off the North Berwick branch cannot be shunted anywhere from Drem right to Edinburgh, and they have several stops en route. So during off-peak hours they are held on the branch at Drem for late running Down ECML expresses, however during the peaks, when the Scotrail services are busier and if delayed have a greater impact on that TOC's overall operations, they are given preference over late runners. Every TOC on the route is aware of the regulating policy.  

[RRU]

16 hours ago, caradoc said:

 Signallers nowadays work with Traffic Management Statements (TMS) which are agreed between NR and the TOCs, and which give clear guidance on how to manage late running.

 

Thanks for the reply. So my hunch was correct, there is a pecking order for trains at various pinch points.

 

Peter

 

[The Johnster]

This is a long standing practice and precedes privatisation.  A feature of the Harrow disaster in 1952 which involved an up express overrunning signals was that it was the established practice to hold Class A up expresses and give priority to Class B commuter traffic, which in this case had been been routed to the up main platform because the up slow platform was occupied by another train; the signalman's action in doing this was criticised in the press at the time but he acted perfectly properly and signals at danger protected the move; the express driver didn't respond to them.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, RRU said:

 

Thanks for the reply. So my hunch was correct, there is a pecking order for trains at various pinch points.

 

Peter

 

Not exactly a 'pecking order' but since privatisation a long standing system of regulating priorities agreed with operators.  So for example at one junction in south London Thameslink trains had priority over Eurostar trains in the event of late running - not so much a 'pecking order' but decisions about business and passenger priorities laid down in advance.  And it isn't always the long distance express services which get the benefit of the doubt in that process.

[62613]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

This is a long standing practice and precedes privatisation.  A feature of the Harrow disaster in 1952 which involved an up express overrunning signals was that it was the established practice to hold Class A up expresses and give priority to Class B commuter traffic, which in this case had been been routed to the up main platform because the up slow platform was occupied by another train; the signalman's action in doing this was criticised in the press at the time but he acted perfectly properly and signals at danger protected the move; the express driver didn't respond to them.

There wasn't in fact a train in the down slow platform; H & W was the stopping train's last stop, and if up long-distance expresses were running late (in the case of the Perth Express, 90 minutes) the instructions allowed outer suburban trains to run "main line" to Euston

 

I suppose, where all the trains on a particular line were run by the owning company, regulation could be covered by a clause in the General Appendix, or in box instructions. What happened in the old days when a line was jointly owned, or another company had running powers?

 

Quote

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by 62613

[caradoc]

Regulating trains when everything is not going to plan has long been necessary, but of course under BR the train that got the road and the one that was delayed all belonged to the one operator, so although people might moan about it (and I certainly did if one of 'my' trains was delayed for someone ele's !) that was usually the end of it. It is a very different railway now of course, and regulating is a thankless task; Whichever TOC has their train delayed for another operator will not be happy. Network Rail has to be as fair as possible to all operators, and if they were not senior managers would soon hear about it !

 

Another example from my time in Glasgow Control; When there was still a heavy flow of imported coal over the Glasgow & South Western route towards Carlisle, an Up coal train could be looped at Thornhill (between Kirkconnel and Dumfries) for a passenger train to pass. This might save a 10 minute delay to the passenger, but would incur around an hour delay to the freight, due to the length of the sections. The freight would then lose its path forward and the reactionary delays could be horrendous, sometimes extending to the next day (if the coal train arrived at its destination too late to make its return working on time). So my normal policy was to keep the freight running.  

[RRU]

Thank you every one for your replies on this subject. Its all been very interesting and informative.

Previously I assumed it would be first come, first served.

 

Just to round off this subject, can anyone explain the thinking for holding “The Dalesman” train in Kirkstall loop for 15 mins. while local trains pass. This loop is only two miles out of Leeds station and seeing as “The Dalesman” runs non-stop to Skipton I cannot see the reason.

 

The train is also held there on the return journey.

 

Peter

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, caradoc said:

The freight would then lose its path forward and the reactionary delays could be horrendous, sometimes extending to the next day (if the coal train arrived at its destination too late to make its return working on time). So my normal policy was to keep the freight running.

Back around 1974 I regularly experienced such a situation on the Birmingham - Coventry line. I used to catch a local from New Street to Lea Hall. In those days there was no Birminham International so no loop before Coventry. We were often held in the platform at Stechford while a Bescot - Banbury unfitted freight passed us off the Up Aston line. It was not a problem to the local as it averaged 30mph including stops. The freight was permitted 35mph. By the time the local left Lea Hall it was already on a double yellow and after Marston Green it was on a clear road all the way to Coventry, so would regularly reach there on time. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Not exactly a 'pecking order' but since privatisation a long standing system of regulating priorities agreed with operators.  So for example at one junction in south London Thameslink trains had priority over Eurostar trains in the event of late running - not so much a 'pecking order' but decisions about business and passenger priorities laid down in advance.  And it isn't always the long distance express services which get the benefit of the doubt in that process.

In the Birmingham area the local services paid for by WMPTE through the Section 20 arrangements got priority over Class 1 expresses. Because of this it was quite common for an XC Manchester express to be 5 minutes late at Coventry, have a stopper let out 1 minute in front of it. This would make it 25 minutes late at Wolverhampton, then missing its path at Macclesfield and ending up over 30 minutes late at Piccadilly.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, RRU said:

can anyone explain the thinking for holding “The Dalesman” train in Kirkstall loop for 15 mins. while local trains pass. This loop is only two miles out of Leeds station and seeing as “The Dalesman” runs non-stop to Skipton I cannot see the reason.

I think that the northbound case is determined by the platform arrangements for dealing with the train at Carlisle. It uses platform 3 which can be occupied by TP trains until 6 minutes before it arrives so it has to be held somewhere. At Leeds it used platform 11 on its last run. The Skipton local it followed after being looped leaves Leeds at 1026, a train from Sheffield is due in platform 11 at 1030. I've got a feeling that the 1028 departure to Knottingly and the Sheffield arrival preclude it from departing after the Skipton train.

Edited August 27, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[RRU]

A work mate used to fund all his holiday travel every year with the vouchers he received from late running trains.

 

Peter

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

In the Birmingham area the local services paid for by WMPTE through the Section 20 arrangements got priority over Class 1 expresses. Because of this it was quite common for an XC Manchester express to be 5 minutes late at Coventry, have a stopper let out 1 minute in front of it. This would make it 25 minutes late at Wolverhampton, then missing its path at Macclesfield and ending up over 30 minutes late at Piccadilly.

The well known 'West Midlands Charter' - much hated by BR InterCity, especially its Cross country part.  Class 1 trains regularly used to get appalling hammerings, as you quoted, as a result.  

[Dunsignalling]

Don't know if it still happens, but up Exeter/Salisbury trains occasionally used to get held at Worting Junction in favour of northbound Freightliners.

 

Quite logical as the Freightliner would be through and away whilst the passenger train stopping, being in the platform for a couple of minutes then restarting would result in the heavy container train being at a stand for much longer and possibly miss a path further on.  

 

John

[ejstubbs]

On 26/08/2019 at 20:44, caradoc said:

Down trains off the North Berwick branch cannot be shunted anywhere from Drem right to Edinburgh, and they have several stops en route. So during off-peak hours they are held on the branch at Drem for late running Down ECML expresses, however during the peaks, when the Scotrail services are busier and if delayed have a greater impact on that TOC's overall operations, they are given preference over late runners. Every TOC on the route is aware of the regulating policy.  

 

Hmm.  That may be the basic policy, but I well remember sometime last year or the year before being on a late-running train from Kings Cross, which I had been willing to make up time ever since we left BoT but which never seemed to get the opportunity to stretch its legs properly, coming round the curve at East Fortune in a disappointingly leisurely fashion to see the lights of a train from North Berwick heading serenely off the branch on to the main line ahead of us.  The dawdle in to Edinburgh behind the stopper was excruciating.

 

IIRC realtimetrains had us 29 minutes late in to Waverley so I didn't even get to claim delay repay!

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, ejstubbs said:

 

Hmm.  That may be the basic policy, but I well remember sometime last year or the year before being on a late-running train from Kings Cross, which I had been willing to make up time ever since we left BoT but which never seemed to get the opportunity to stretch its legs properly, coming round the curve at East Fortune in a disappointingly leisurely fashion to see the lights of a train from North Berwick heading serenely off the branch on to the main line ahead of us.  The dawdle in to Edinburgh behind the stopper was excruciating.

 

IIRC realtimetrains had us 29 minutes late in to Waverley so I didn't even get to claim delay repay!

 

Sometimes the Signaller has no choice but to run a Down North Berwick in front of an express, for example if there is more than one late running Down express and no gap between them for an unacceptable period. No consolation if you are on the delayed express however !

 

[RRU]

Good evening. Scarborough again today. Its not long since I got back home. You will probably know about the disruption to TPE trains this afternoon. If not I will post a description tomorrow.

 

It is too late now to write anything longer than this .

 

Here is a pic of the SSE arriving. 13 coaches today.

 

 

Peter

 

[royaloak]

On 27/08/2019 at 15:21, The Stationmaster said:

 And it isn't always the long distance express services which get the benefit of the doubt in that process.

Damn right it isnt, Westbury prioritise HSTs (thats Heavy Stone Trains ) to the point of stopping an on time class one at Clink Road to let a late running class 7 stone train out in front, the 'Express' then followed the stone train to Fairwood jn and then gets stopped to let an empty class 6 stone train across at Heywood Road, end result the class one ended up 15 minutes late.

 

Then we have Airport Jn where tHeathrow Express get priority over on time class ones meaning we have to brake from 115mph (no point going any faster) to a dead stand so we wait for the HX to go first,  a lot of the time we could go first and not impact on the HX but its booked order courtesy of the ARS.

[RRU]

Thursday 29th August What a day!

 

It all started like any other Thursday. The SSE arrived on time loaded to the max. at 13 coaches.

There were two class 68`s stood at the buffers of no. 3 and 4 platforms. Pictures below. All was running well and I took my place to video the SSE leaving.

 

I was looking forward to a ride on the new Nova3/class 68 combo but then I noticed the train for the 1644 wasn't there. Then the 1744 did not turn up. Something's wrong. The Hull trains were running and the SSE left and then I made my way to the station. That's when I found out there would be no trains for at least two hours. We were told this was caused by someone jumping in front of a train at Slaithwaite

 

Then an announcement. Buses would be provided. 1730 is the worst time this could have happened. All the buses and coaches are busy and it is when most people are going home. So, everyone moves outside to wait. Eventually a coach and a H reg. double decker arrive. Poor old thing, it should be in semi retirement but found itself thrashing down the A64 at 40mph.

 

A thought occurred to me during the journey, I wonder if the train onward at York will be the next departure from Scarborough, and it was. That 90 min. bus ride got us nowhere. Ah well.

 

Then to cap it all off, the train ran spot on time all the way to Huddersfield where I got off.

 

This has raised a few talking points which I will come to later.

 

Here are the class 68`s

 

Nearest the camera is 68023 “Achilles” and alongside is 68028 “Lord President”

 

 

Peter

 

[RRU]

I recieved two messages a few minutes ago whilst I was composing another post. I must have done something wrong because I cannot see them. If you replied to this thread a few minutes ago can you please re-send it.

 

Peter

 

[RRU]

I know I am going to get a lecture from Mr. Stationmaster on how the railway works, but I am not criticising, just asking what the procedures are when something goes wrong.

 

There must be some sort of contingency plans for these kind of things. Are there not any spare trains and crew at Manchester and York that can spring into life and run some kind of service until the problem is solved? I would imagine it will be easier to set up and run emergency services when all the operations are run from inside one building like the ROC`s than having to communicate to many signal boxes.

 

A chap next to me in the queue asked where are the trains on our side of the blockage. They would probably be on the Newcastle and Middlesbrough services.

 

Peter

[Rugd1022]

Spare trains and crews to work them are a thing of the past I'm afraid Peter, it costs a lot of money to have people sat around waiting to be put to use. We do still have spare turns to cover for sickness and emergencies but they're much fewer than in BR days. Each TOC / FOC has their own way of providing for this, for example my company rosters us on 'on call' turns where we have a booked starting time, if we don't get called out within four hours we switch our phones off. In these situations there are other things to consider such as the crew's route knowledge and how many hours they may be available for and wether or not they in turn will require a relief crew en route. It's never as simple as it seems!

 

Even if there were sufficient resourses, a given situation might not enable something to be put into place to keep things moving, such as the location or track layout of the incident in question. Hope this makes sense. The last time I failed out on the mainline I had to wait over an hour for assistance, the nearest loco and crew were forty miles away.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Rugd1022

[RRU]

6 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

Spare trains and crews to work them are a thing of the past I'm afraid Peter, it costs a lot of money to have people sat around waiting to be put to use.

 

They could be doing yard jobs or working as I did as a mechanic in the garage. Many times the boss came in and said Peter take your overalls off and go do the 360 service for two hours.

 

Peter

+

[rockershovel]

Re the discussion above, I can’t envisage how such a complex system, with so many variables could possibly work WITHOUT having a generally understood system by which priorities are reviewed and allocated on an ongoing basis. 

[Rugd1022]

2 hours ago, RRU said:

 

They could be doing yard jobs or working as I did as a mechanic in the garage. Many times the boss came in and said Peter take your overalls off and go do the 360 service for two hours.

 

Peter

+

 

Mechanics / fitters / yard staff are not trained drivers so that is a none starter, it doesn't work like that on the railway I'm afraid.

[RRU]

So the railway companies are basically “winging it”, knowing full well that if anything goes wrong they are up the creek without a paddle.

 

Peter