GE 44 Ton Switchers in Europe

[Nearholmer]

I think this has been discussed on RMWeb somewhere before, but can I find where? No.

 

USATC imported c100 GE 44 Ton Switchers (actually ballasted to 45 Tons in the USATC version) to Europe after D-Day, many being assembled in GB from kits of parts sent from the USA.

 

Excellent photo of one being unloaded in France from the TS Twickenham Ferry below.

 

I know that a lot were eventually recovered and sold to Indian and Pakistan Railways, that a few went to a light railway in France (one preserved in working order in the Landes), the Portuguese Railways had some, and that others went to industrial users in Spain and Sweden, and when the Bilbao Metro was first being built, I "copped" one being used by a track contractor on that work.

 

So, any European users that I've missed? And, did any actually get used in Britain? Somewhere, I've seen a photo of about fifty of them lined-up after assembly somewhere in South Wales, but I'm thinking of actual use, rather than "passing through".

 

Davenport also built locos very similar, possibly to GE drawings, and some of them were used by FS after WW2, but its specifically the GE ones I'm after.

 

Kevin

 

[Warning - some of the foregoing turns out to be incorrect ....... all becomes clear in the rest of the thread!]

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

I think this has been discussed on RMWeb somewhere before, but can I find where? No.

 

USATC imported c100 GE 44 Ton Switchers (actually ballasted to 45 Tons in the USATC version) to Europe after D-Day, many being assembled in GB from kits of parts sent from the USA.

 

Excellent photo of one being unloaded in France from the TS Twickenham Ferry below.

 

I know that a lot were eventually recovered and sold to Indian and Pakistan Railways, that a few went to a light railway in France (one preserved in working order in the Landes), the Portuguese Railways had some, and that others went to industrial users in Spain and Sweden, and when the Bilbao Metro was first being built, I "copped" one being used by a track contractor on that work.

 

So, any European users that I've missed? And, did any actually get used in Britain? Somewhere, I've seen a photo of about fifty of them lined-up after assembly somewhere in South Wales, but I'm thinking of actual use, rather than "passing through".

 

Davenport also built locos very similar, possibly to GE drawings, and some of them were used by FS after WW2, but its specifically the GE ones I'm after.

 

Kevin

 

 

IIRC,some ended up with the Chemin de fer de Bouches du Rhone, who operated lines west of Arles. These lasted into the 1980s. 

I believe a lot of the USATC was stored in places such as Rogerstone, NW of Newport. Whether any saw use in the UK, I don't know.

[Nearholmer]

Many thanks.

 

The preserved one that I have seen came from CFTA line SE de la Gironde, where they were used well into the 1970s, so that makes at least two French secondary railways.

 

And, I've just found this excellent video of one in service ....... the viaduct is terrifying! https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-Lkry-SF01&hsimp=yhs-SF01&hspart=Lkry&p=CFTA+de+la+Gironde#id=1&vid=ad5af374d1daadb1b4168f3c38c62891&action=click

Edited August 18, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Fat Controller]

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Many thanks.

 

The preserved one that I have seen came from CFTA line SE de la Gironde, where they were used well into the 1970s, so that makes at least two French secondary railways.

 

And, I've just found this excellent video of one in service ....... the viaduct is terrifying! https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-Lkry-SF01&hsimp=yhs-SF01&hspart=Lkry&p=CFTA+de+la+Gironde#id=1&vid=ad5af374d1daadb1b4168f3c38c62891&action=click

I believe the Chemin de Fer D'Herault also had some, which may even have hauled passenger services on a line near Beziers.

[brack]

I know they had a lowered cab compared to the usual 44t, but would they be within the loading gauge for british use? If they're sat about waiting and locos were needed I can see it as plausible they were borrowed or tested locally, but obviously not if they're out of gauge.

[Nearholmer]

I'm fairly sure they were designed to be in loading gauge for Britain, and they were certainly designed for ease of changing the track gauge ...... I think the traction motors were narrow enough to allow down to metre gauge.

 

Lots more pictures of the Gironde ones in this thread, which practically amounts to a book about the railway http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=73243&start=165

 

The only Herault picture that I can find shows a bigger loco, I think its a Whitcomb 65 Tonner, of which USATC had lots, some of which became NS 600 class (they were later redesignated 2000 class, so are not to be confused with the British EE350 locos, which were the slightly later 600 class). A few of this type did work in the UK, including on the Longmoor Military Railway.

 

EDIT: No, having checked, the Herault locos were built by Coferma, heavily based on the Whitcomb design, and using engines, generators, and bogies bought "army surplus". The design was also heavily ripped-off by OBB for their first post WW2 diesels.

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Nearholmer

[melmerby]

I noticethat according to Wiki the weight is quoted in US "short" tons i.e 2000lb = 1T.

The imperial weight was around 39 Tons.

[Nearholmer]

The 44 (Short) Ton weight was crucially important in the US, because it just skimmed under the limit agreed with Trades Unions that allowed single-manning; a pound heavier and it would have needed a crew of two. This was a huge sales feature, because the sort of marginal railway that they were intended for could save a lot over the cost of steam loco crew of two, and use some of that to fund the purchase price. (Oh, I just read wikipedia, and it says all that, only more accurately!)

 

The military ones were 1 (Short) Ton heavier, but I haven't worked out exactly how/why, and I guess there weren't any trades union agreements in the military.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Nearholmer

[brack]

Industrial users weren't covered by the weight/manning agreements. Only proper railroads. Plus they were built for abroad.

 

Having said that I'm not sure 1 extra ton of ballast would make much difference in performance.

[Nearholmer]

I've just been looking at diagrams, and there were subtle differences in dimensions between batches of the military type, some being 10' 2.5" above rail level, and some 2" shorter, width varied by 4" also ....... I wonder if the first ones scraped something, or whether for one batch the dimensions are "as drawn" and the others "as measured when fully fuelled".

Edited August 18, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Tony Cane]

They were used in the UK after assembly at Ebbw Junction, but only on trial runs with, probably a local freight train, often in pairs.

See Tourret "Allied Military Locomotives of the Second World War" Page 270

 

 

[Fat Controller]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I've just been looking at diagrams, and there were subtle differences in dimensions between batches of the military type, some being 10' 2.5" above rail level, and some 2" shorter, width varied by 4" also ....... I wonder if the first ones scraped something, or whether for one batch the dimensions are "as drawn" and the others "as measured when fully fuelled".

I wonder if it was  because of someone checking the loading gauge for parts of North-Western France; it isn't as generous as people think.

[EddieB]

On 18/08/2019 at 21:43, Nearholmer said:

I think this has been discussed on RMWeb somewhere before, but can I find where? No.

 

USATC imported c100 GE 44 Ton Switchers (actually ballasted to 45 Tons in the USATC version) to Europe after D-Day, many being assembled in GB from kits of parts sent from the USA.

 

You might be thinking of a discussion arising from a topic “Foreign Built Locos at Carnforth” in another place (I Remember Somewhere, commonly abbreviated) and in particular an example that worked at Esso, Farley.

[Nearholmer]

Blow me! Yes, that was what was lurking, half-submerged, at the back of my mind. 

 

Thank you!

 

Checking the relevant handbook, it was GE(USA) 30483/1949.

 

But, as this rather good photo shows, it was a US-domestic-style 45 tonner, rather than a ballasted 44 tonner to military spec, so had external coupling-rod drive. https://www.flickr.com/photos/65480188@N07/8458255482

 

And, a sadder photo at Carnforth https://www.flickr.com/photos/65480188@N07/8278609233

 

 

TBH, I've never properly worked out whether the 45 ton locos still had two small traction motors per bogie like the 44 ton or, as I suspect, one big one.

 

The other UK 44/45 ton loco is, of course, the machine from Ford at Dagenham, currently OOU at the KESR due to a generator flashover, but that is an altogether earlier beast, with a single engine.

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Nick_Burman]

On 18/08/2019 at 22:43, Nearholmer said:

the Portuguese Railways had some

The CP locos were bought new in 1949.

 

On 18/08/2019 at 22:43, Nearholmer said:

a few went to a light railway in France

AFAIK the Gironde locos were 65t rather than 45t. I think CFTA still has one loco lurking at Gray works.

 

Cheers Nicholas

Edited September 8, 2019 by Nick_Burman

[Nearholmer]

Oh yes, you're right about the CP ones: built in 1949! They are clearly to the military spec, with low cab, buffers, compressors on the running board etc, which is how I misled myself. Nice picture here https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portuguese_shunter_type_1100#/media/File:CP_1106_1993-11-11_Barreiro.jpg

 

The Gironde ones, now I look deeper, were indeed not 44/45 ton locos: Tourret cites them as being 75 tons, and having 2x250hp engines, rather than 2x190hp. He gives details as USATC 7228-37, becoming SNCF D4028-37, of which D4028, 31, 33, and 36 passed to CFTA, although I think D4030 also went to CFTA.

 

I'll never trust my eyes again, because I've stood in front of one of the Gironde locos, and been convinced I was looking at a 44 tonner, whereas tables of dimensions show them as being very subtly larger in several key dimensions!

 

Thank you for these corrections.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Fat Controller]

CFTA's operations at Gray are now part of Europorte Proximité, itself a subsidiary of Eurotunnel.

[Northroader]

Sorry, Kevin, only just spotted this thread, here’s some info from Tourret “USATC locos”  The GEC locos for overseas use were three classes.

45 Ton 7800-29, 7924-9, 8390, 8499-8528,8560-73. (8390 built 1945, rest in 1944)

75 Ton 7228-37

25 Ton (0-4-0) 7770-9

The standard American 44 tonner, with high cab and central buckeye couplers 70xx and 71xx numbers stayed in the USA at various army and airforce depots.

The overseas 45 ton version had the low cab and side buffers, two Caterpillar v8 190hp diesels, and four traction motors.

First batch 7800-29, with broad gauge bogies, went straight to India in 1944, and stayed there, on various systems, and Pakistan got some after partition.

most of the rest came to Europe, 7924 and 8499 batches through Newport with assembly at Ebbw Jc, he thinks. They stayed for much shorter time than the 2-8-0 steamers, barely a month before Dday, and weren’t used on British lines, mainly stored at Newport, but a few at Southampton, Then went to France and joined by more in the 8560 batch sent straight from America. They worked behind the allied advance, and in 1945 returned to America, not staying in Europe like the steamers. He thinks the reason was they would be needed for the Pacific war, but this ended before they went, and remained in USA.

The 75 tonners had two Cummings 250hp diesels, and externally looked very like a 44 ton, just a shade larger.These also came to Britain summer of 1944, and quickly shipped to France. After the war they became SNCF D4028-37, and four went to the Gironde system.

The small 25tons locos with a Cummins 150hp diesel and single traction motor with chain linkage, passed through Eastleigh works and Southampton Docks, and were used for reconstruction work close to the front lines. All thought to have returned to USA in 1945.

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Northroader

[brianusa]

Lionel has made one of these for years, a bit too big but looks all right with US size freight cars.  Quite a good model, one of the cheaper line but looks the part and a good runner.

      I have made a coupler adapter for Hornby and Lionel but it needs a spare plastic Lionel coupler for mutilation which entails drilling a hole for a length of stiff wire about 1/2" and securing with super glue.  Primitive but it works well and hardly noticeable.  Best way though is to pick a Hornby truck and install a Lionel coupler on one end.

      Brian.

[Fat Controller]

To further muddy the waters, it would appear that some locos were built, using spares brought from the US military, by a firm called Coferma. This is a link to Wiki (I know..):-

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemins_de_fer_de_l'Hérault#Locomotives_BB_Diesel-électriques_Coferna_série_DE-1_à_6

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I did refer to those earlier in the thread ...... they were weight-adjusted copies of the Whitcomb 65 ton, rather than the GE 44/45 ton.

 

Even French enthusiasts seem unsure about all of the details surrounding the disposition of the various USATC diesels, which isn’t surprising given that (a) their country was in post-conflict shock and turmoil at the time in question, and (b) the vast majority of the diesels actually didn’t stay in Europe very long, being pulled back to the US very quickly, with a view to use in the Far East, which didn’t happen as things turned out, which means that it is a case of pursuing the odd few that were left behind.

 

These locos did leave a legacy though, in that they gave a concrete demonstration of the utility of diesels.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Adding link to locomotive operator's manual for a 44 Tonner

 

http://www.prrh.org/downloads/ge-44ton.pdf

[cctransuk]

On 18/08/2019 at 21:43, Nearholmer said:

... a light railway in France (one preserved in working order in the Landes) ....

 

I've been hauled by that one - at the Ecomusee des Landes.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[russ p]

I suppose one reason why they weren't used in the UK is that there were virtually no drivers trained on driving diesels .

I wonder if the USATC had made a version of the RS1 suitable for the British loading gauge things may have been different as they were truly mainline locos 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

I wonder if the USATC had made a version of the RS1 suitable for the British loading gauge things may have been different as they were truly mainline locos 

 

They almost did, the RSD1, which was a six-axle version supplied to USATC for use in Iran, but that had a tall cab, so I don't think it would have fitted over here.

 

Slightly later USATC did procure the 1600hp MRS1, which was a small loading gauge "go anywhere" road locomotive. In a previous thread I posted a drawing of one that I'd mocked LMS lettering onto, but actually they were too late for that.