z21 woes

[Pete M]

After nearly 60 years of DC, I decided it was time to move to DCC with a z21 operated via iPad. After a day getting the WiFi to talk to me I have come to a complete standstill trying to get a loco to do anything other the click and get warm. It’s a brand new item from Olivias trains that works fine on DC. YouTube tutorials gloss over everything and have proved more confusing than help. Getting a bit frustrated as I can usually muddle or struggle through most problems but this really has come to a dead end. Any ideas?

[NickC]

You are absolutely sure the loco does have a DCC decoder fitted in it?

[Phil S]

No Roco Controller will allow an analogue loco to run - as this is not a recommended practice, and is a policy followed by many,but not all, controller manufacturers.  An 'unfitted' (analogue) loco will BUZZ and get warm on a dcc track.

 

Did the invoice for the loco include a decoder or state that it had one pre-fitted ???  'DCC Ready' does NOT MEAN it has a decoder fitted ... it is a confusing phrase meaning that the loco has a SOCKET for a decoder built-in - but you have to open up the loco and fit the appropriate type of decoder  (There are many different fittings available depending on how many features may be available   eg 6 or  8   21,   22    18 ......

6 pin decoders are used in many small 00/H0 locos and N gauge -  2 pins for track connection, 2 for motor, and 2 for Fwd/Rev lights.

8 pin (2 x 4 in shape) is the most common  and as well as 2 track and 2 motor  has a +ve pin and upto 3 functions

Current ratings and other features vary between decoders - as does cost.

DCC FITTED or DCC SOUND identifies a loco which HAS a decoder fitted at the factory.

 

[melmerby]

32 minutes ago, Pete M said:

After nearly 60 years of DC, I decided it was time to move to DCC with a z21 operated via iPad. After a day getting the WiFi to talk to me I have come to a complete standstill trying to get a loco to do anything other the click and get warm. It’s a brand new item from Olivias trains that works fine on DC. YouTube tutorials gloss over everything and have proved more confusing than help. Getting a bit frustrated as I can usually muddle or struggle through most problems but this really has come to a dead end. Any ideas?

Hi Pete.

We need more information.

 

As has been mentioned: Does it have a decoder?

If so: What loco? What decoder? What address are you using?

Which output on the Z21 are you using, Programming or Main track?

 

[jpendle]

Also is it a z21(White) or a Z21(Black). The capital Z is important. The Z21 has two track outputs, main and program. The z21 has just one track output which can be switched between a program track and the main track.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[WIMorrison]

Pete

 

As has been suggested elsewhere you need to start by understanding DCC and I think that the advice offered by @Phil S may be the root of the issue, though your woes in connecting the z21 Start, z21 or Z21 suggest that you have some issues there as well.

 

The Z21 system is one of the most comprehensive and simplest system around therefore a good choice and DCC can be as simple of complex as you wish, but you really do ned to understand what it and DCC are and how DCC works first - DC it isn't though neither is it complication.

 

This may help you https://dccwiki.com/

 

 

[Pete M]

Thanks for all your quick replies; brand new z21, brand new from £300+ Hornby J15 from Olivias Trains; I only have a test track; I tested the loco on an old DC controller and it works fine. I’m a bit frustrated as all every tutorial shows you is the loco being plonked on a track dialled into the app and everything working like magic, sounds and all - nothing about addresses or all the programming or that you need to do to get everything to work in the first place. This definitely ain’t ‘plug and play’!

[melmerby]

15 minutes ago, Pete M said:

. This definitely ain’t ‘plug and play’!

It is if you know the basics of what is required.

 

z21? so it's a white one then? (If it's black it is a Z21, a subtle difference)

Hornby J15, Olivia's Trains. So did you ask for a decoder to be fitted? If so which one - basic or sound?

 

[Nigelcliffe]

20 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Thanks for all your quick replies; brand new z21, brand new from £300+ Hornby J15 from Olivias Trains; I only have a test track; I tested the loco on an old DC controller and it works fine. I’m a bit frustrated as all every tutorial shows you is the loco being plonked on a track dialled into the app and everything working like magic, sounds and all - nothing about addresses or all the programming or that you need to do to get everything to work in the first place. This definitely ain’t ‘plug and play’!

 

You haven't reported a decoder in that loco.   

Without a decoder, it won't run on DCC, all the loco will do is buzz, heat up and cook the motor in the loco. 

 

The J15 has an "8 pin" decoder socket in the tender.    Suggest you purchase either a Zimo or Lenz Standard decoder with an 8-pin connection to get started. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Pete M said:

Thanks for all your quick replies; brand new z21, brand new from £300+ Hornby J15 from Olivias Trains; ........

 

I hope you didn't pay £300 fo r the z21 when you can buy one for as little as £105 (inc. p&p) on its own with a power supply, or up to £150 complete with a MultiMaus (wired) handset.

 

 

Is there a decoder fitted in the loco?

 

 

Ron

[Phil S]

ALSO a CAUTION against using #an old controller#  to test or drive a loco ONCE A DECODER HAS BEEN FITTED ....

Old-fashioned, even if 'much cherished' pre-electonic era controllers such as H&M Duettes, Clippers, Safety Minors, Tri-ang Controllers - whether with Vari-wave, Half-wave and full-wave switches OR NOT are UNSUITABLE to use with a dcc-fitted loco, and the loco  will often not run correctly, only one way, or even expire the decoder BECAUSE these old controllers simply rectified  [after the voltage reducing transformer] the 50Hz mains sinewave - and pass it to the outputs 'labelled 12Volts dc'  at variable level .... outputting up to 28V peak voltage at 100 pulses a second .... falling to 0 100x a second too ...causing the decoder's processor to become confused and continually having to restart (100x a second!)...getting nowhere ... heating the motor and decoder, and often unable to detect which direction it should run.

 

The simplest test of any loco -fitted or unfitted-  is to place it on a separate piece of track, and touch a 9V battery to the rails.

Any analogue,or DCC_fitted loco in the default setting** should then run.. whatever its loco address ... rotate battery and repeat.

The loco should go forward when the Right hand rail is the +ve, and in reverse when it is negative  (except for LGB G-scale)

**some users disable DC/analogue running  due to problems when power is first applied with some controllers ... this is not a good idea for fault finding diagnosis !

 

DECODER FITTED locos, when used on 'analogue' need a controller with a REGULATED OUTPUT VOLTAGE which is 'smooth'   ....    it can still be pulsed... but at high frequency ...NOT 50 or 100Hz ...  and this is how some/many Gaugemaster controllers operate, as well as those from other makes (it is more energy efficient than actually varying the voltage ... and EC regulations now require that all train set power supplies (for sale) use SMPS power supplies and not 'conventional 50Hz transformers'.

 

'DCC READY' does NOT mean 'Ready to run on dcc track' .... it means, as stated before, that it has a socket for you to 'easily add' a decoder of your choice  [it means the internal wiring is suitable for adding a decoder].  

Only DCC FITTED and DCC SOUND or similar labels come pre-fitted from the factory.

If a shop adds a decoder for you - the labels won't change ... but the cost will have increased 8-)

 

THE OTHER SCENARIO - whereby a dcc-fitted loco will not run on DCC is that the number is different to that you expect

BY DEFAULT decoders usually come with Address = 3  ...so this address should be tried first.  BUT some manufacturers, or retailers, when Pre/fitting a decoder may also alter the default value - IF SO this is usually stated on a label somewhere.

 

If in doubt - the first thing to do to get a response is to PROGRAM it to '3' or any preferred number.

Especially if tried on an 'old controller' then the decoder might benefit from a RESET  .... if a decoder WAS fitted, then the locoshould have been supplied with a MANUAL which lists how to RESET the decoder  (look around 'CV' 7 or 8,  for something about writing  '8' to  CV8  ... but it could be 2, 6, 33, 55, 77 and to CV7 or8 depending on the make  -but CV8 to 8 is most common

 

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Phil S
added 'after voltage reducing transformer' 8-)

[Pete M]

The £300 I quoted was for the fully fitted sound, etc loco - not the z21. A’s usual everything is plagued by jargon. The instructions with the loco were a load of incomprehensible numbers on a bit of A5 paper; absolutely no help, nor was my conversation this morning with him when I was informed it was my fault for not buying a Bachmann unit from him. Last of my pennies he gets. 

I’ve tried programming, and the loco sits there clicking. Go back to the controller bit, dial in that number - and nothing. Just what am I doing wrong? 

15 hours ago, NickC said:

You are absolutely sure the loco does have a DCC decoder fitted in it?

 

14 hours ago, Phil S said:

No Roco Controller will allow an analogue loco to run - as this is not a recommended practice, and is a policy followed by many,but not all, controller manufacturers.  An 'unfitted' (analogue) loco will BUZZ and get warm on a dcc track.

 

Did the invoice for the loco include a decoder or state that it had one pre-fitted ???  'DCC Ready' does NOT MEAN it has a decoder fitted ... it is a confusing phrase meaning that the loco has a SOCKET for a decoder built-in - but you have to open up the loco and fit the appropriate type of decoder  (There are many different fittings available depending on how many features may be available   eg 6 or  8   21,   22    18 ......

6 pin decoders are used in many small 00/H0 locos and N gauge -  2 pins for track connection, 2 for motor, and 2 for Fwd/Rev lights.

8 pin (2 x 4 in shape) is the most common  and as well as 2 track and 2 motor  has a +ve pin and upto 3 functions

Current ratings and other features vary between decoders - as does cost.

DCC FITTED or DCC SOUND identifies a loco which HAS a decoder fitted at the factory.

 

 

14 hours ago, melmerby said:

Hi Pete.

We need more information.

 

As has been mentioned: Does it have a decoder?

If so: What loco? What decoder? What address are you using?

Which output on the Z21 are you using, Programming or Main track?

 

 

13 hours ago, jpendle said:

Also is it a z21(White) or a Z21(Black). The capital Z is important. The Z21 has two track outputs, main and program. The z21 has just one track output which can be switched between a program track and the main track.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

6 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Pete

 

As has been suggested elsewhere you need to start by understanding DCC and I think that the advice offered by @Phil S may be the root of the issue, though your woes in connecting the z21 Start, z21 or Z21 suggest that you have some issues there as well.

 

The Z21 system is one of the most comprehensive and simplest system around therefore a good choice and DCC can be as simple of complex as you wish, but you really do ned to understand what it and DCC are and how DCC works first - DC it isn't though neither is it complication.

 

This may help you https://dccwiki.com/

 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

As you have spent 50 years working with DC layouts - I think you said exhibition somewhere else that you posted this question - you must know many other people that have DCC locally and I suggest that you admit defeat and speak to one of them.

 

DCC is not difficult and the z21 or Z21,  - still not clear what you have purchased -  is a very easy system to get up and running.

 

you say you don’t understand any of the instructions yet the z/Z21 has masses of detailed instructions, though you would be expected to know about the DCC Chip fitted from the manufacturer’s details hence the lack of detailed instructions with the loco.

 

I am 99.9% certain that this is user error and I am also certain that a person who knows DCC would be able to show you it working within minutes - if that long. 

 

Bite the bullet, swallow your pride and ask someone from your local club or model railway friends to take a look - all will be sorted easily then.

[jpendle]

OK let's get back to basics.

 

First why did it take so long to get your iPad connected to the z21 with its WiFi router? When I got mine a couple of years ago, it was very simple, just connect the z21 and router together using the supplied LAN cable, turn them both on, and then connect my iPad to the Z21 network. I then added a decoder to a loco and it ran at address 3, this took about half an hour.

 

Second do you have a blue light on the z21 and on the app on your iPad when you are using it?

 

Third, have you tried to read back the loco address with the z21 app?

 

Regards,

 

John P

[PaulRhB]

The loco clicking is strange as it’s obviously getting power. So what address is it supposed to be? 

Have you tried 3 as default if it’s supposedly something else?

 

 

Setting up the Z21 can be confirmed by opening the app and going to:

- settings 

- Z21 settings

it should then show you voltage set etc. 

If it says reconnect to Z21 then it’s not actually connecting. 

 

If it’s connected ok next thing is to check the loco is set up in the app.

Go to : Vehicles

 

Go to the + symbol at the bottom right and select Demo loco from the bottom of the short list, this will give you a simple set of function buttons for testing. 

 

Set the address to the one the one they told you it had. 

 

 

Check you’ve put the loco address in correctly and no extra digits. Then you need to go back to the menu and select : Steering. 

 

You should now see the demo loco on the list, tap it to activate it and try driving and functions. If nothing try changing the address to the default 3 and try that. 

 

See what happens and let us know as we might get an idea if it’s the loco or Z21, it’s probable it’s something simple  

[geoff]

Pete, would you be able to make the trip from Leicester to Kettering? If so I can certainly check the loco over for you and if you bring the z(Z)21 and its router and your iPad along with the instruction booklet perhaps we can get that sorted too.

 

Geoff

[Pete M]

DThe £300 I quoted was for the fully fitted sound, etc loco - not the z21. A’s usual everything is plagued by jargon. The instructions with the loco were a load of incomprehensible numbers on a bit of A5 paper; absolutely no help, nor was my conversation this morning with him when I was informed it was my fault for not buying a Bachmann unit from him. Last of my pennies he gets. 

I’ve tried programming, and the loco sits there clicking. Go back to the controller bit, dial in that number - and nothing. Just what am I doing wrong? 

18 hours ago, NickC said:

You are absolutely sure the loco does have a DCC decoder fitted in it?

 

18 hours ago, Phil S said:

No Roco Controller will allow an analogue loco to run - as this is not a recommended practice, and is a policy followed by many,but not all, controller manufacturers.  An 'unfitted' (analogue) loco will BUZZ and get warm on a dcc track.

 

Did the invoice for the loco include a decoder or state that it had one pre-fitted ???  'DCC Ready' does NOT MEAN it has a decoder fitted ... it is a confusing phrase meaning that the loco has a SOCKET for a decoder built-in - but you have to open up the loco and fit the appropriate type of decoder  (There are many different fittings available depending on how many features may be available   eg 6 or  8   21,   22    18 ......

6 pin decoders are used in many small 00/H0 locos and N gauge -  2 pins for track connection, 2 for motor, and 2 for Fwd/Rev lights.

8 pin (2 x 4 in shape) is the most common  and as well as 2 track and 2 motor  has a +ve pin and upto 3 functions

Current ratings and other features vary between decoders - as does cost.

DCC FITTED or DCC SOUND identifies a loco which HAS a decoder fitted at the factory.

 

 

17 hours ago, melmerby said:

Hi Pete.

We need more information.

 

As has been mentioned: Does it have a decoder?

If so: What loco? What decoder? What address are you using?

Which output on the Z21 are you using, Programming or Main track?

 

 

16 hours ago, jpendle said:

Also is it a z21(White) or a Z21(Black). The capital Z is important. The Z21 has two track outputs, main and program. The z21 has just one track output which can be switched between a program track and the main track.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

9 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Pete

 

As has been suggested elsewhere you need to start by understanding DCC and I think that the advice offered by @Phil S may be the root of the issue, though your woes in connecting the z21 Start, z21 or Z21 suggest that you have some issues there as well.

 

The Z21 system is one of the most comprehensive and simplest system around therefore a good choice and DCC can be as simple of complex as you wish, but you really do ned to understand what it and DCC are and how DCC works first - DC it isn't though neither is it complication.

 

This may help you https://dccwiki.com/

 

 

 

[Pete M]

Hi again and thanks for all your helpful comments. It appears the fault lies within the z21 unit and it has been sent off for the necessaries. Although obviously still a little peeved, I do feel slightly vindicated as it wasn’t me being a plonker (as a lot of you thought - and so did I at times), but something fundamentally not right. Hopefully when it returns it will work as it should and I shall fade from your life...

[WIMorrison]

I guess that after all these years of flawless service on multiple layouts by thousands of people there has to be a first time that for a fault in a z/Z21- seems that this is the one ...

Edited August 19, 2019 by WIMorrison

[melmerby]

35 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Hi again and thanks for all your helpful comments. It appears the fault lies within the z21 unit and it has been sent off for the necessaries. Although obviously still a little peeved, I do feel slightly vindicated as it wasn’t me being a plonker (as a lot of you thought - and so did I at times), but something fundamentally not right. Hopefully when it returns it will work as it should and I shall fade from your life...

 

Hi Pete

Please try and be a bit more precise with your postings, as the information we were given didn't help with getting the right advice.

e.g. We still don't know whether it is a z21 (white) or a Z21 (black).

There is quite a bit of difference between them.

 

Hopefully the returned unit will be working as you expected.

 

[Guest JiLo]

1 hour ago, Pete M said:

DThe £300 I quoted was for the fully fitted sound, etc loco - not the z21. A’s usual everything is plagued by jargon. The instructions with the loco were a load of incomprehensible numbers on a bit of A5 paper; absolutely no help, nor was my conversation this morning with him when I was informed it was my fault for not buying a Bachmann unit from him. Last of my pennies he gets. 

I’ve tried programming, and the loco sits there clicking. Go back to the controller bit, dial in that number - and nothing. Just what am I doing wrong? 

 

I'd suggest that before you have your z/Z21 returned, have a read through the jargon and incomprehensible numbers, they are there to help you get the best out of DCC.  DCC is as simple or as confusing as you want it to be.  If you don't take the time to learn the basics, then you'll never get your head around it.

 

At least you've found out why people say what they say about Olivias....

Edited August 19, 2019 by JiLo

[Pete M]

Sorry, but I put z21 (small z) in every post, I thought that would be clear enough. Sorry. 

[WIMorrison]

5 hours ago, Pete M said:

Hi again and thanks for all your helpful comments. It appears the fault lies within the z21 unit and it has been sent off for the necessaries. Although obviously still a little peeved, I do feel slightly vindicated as it wasn’t me being a plonker (as a lot of you thought - and so did I at times), but something fundamentally not right. Hopefully when it returns it will work as it should and I shall fade from your life...

 

You say elsewhere that someone is coming to sort it out for you - as suggested earlier on. Has the z21 been returned as faulty  to Olivias Trains or is it working and simply needing connecting correctly?

 

Please let us know - it would also help if you stated clearly what is actually happening, what you have actually done as no one here knows what you have actually done to identify what any fault might be, all we know is that it 'doesn't' work and allegedly the instructions are rubbish.

 

[melmerby]

46 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Sorry, but I put z21 (small z) in every post, I thought that would be clear enough. Sorry. 

That's OK.

People were pushing for a more definitive description as it's not unusual for them to be mis-identified, even some of the sellers can't get it right.

The easiest way to avoid confusion is to quote their colour as the basic one (z21) is white and the full fat one (Z21) black, IMHO Roco haven't helped by using such silly designations.

 

Even the z21 is available with and without the router and unlock codes. (the Z21 has them as standard)

Edited August 19, 2019 by melmerby

[40034_Nick]

Rule number 1.. NEVER BUY ANYTHING FROM Olivias trains

Rule number 2.. NEVER BUY ANYTHING FROM Olivias trains

Rule number 3.. NEVER BUY ANYTHING FROM Olivias trains

 

they couldn't care about anything but their fat pockets !!! I have had problems with them in the past as well as everyone i know. Not to mention they are overpriced BIG time !!!!

Edited August 20, 2019 by 40034_Nick