The long term effect of Market Deeping

[Chris M]

I just got this in my joining instructions for a one day show:-

 

"Insurance:

Our insurer has advised us that they would be unable to cover the insurance of rolling stock left in the hall on Friday night. This is in the light of the awful damage incurred at the Market Deeping Exhibition. If you have no alternative but to do this then you must make your own insurance arrangements. Despite all of this let me emphasise that the Sports Hall is well secured within a locked compound and also that Senior Caretaker is totally committed to ensuring that there are no problems."

 

I'm not surprised this has happened but its probably worth checking the status of insurance when invited to exhibitions in future. This is not a criticism of the show organisers but if one show has this problem then it is likely that others will so its about making people aware to check on insurance before accepting an invite.

 

I don't think we need to go over old ground already covered regarding how we feel about the lads who did it.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Chris M

[AY Mod]

I have just spoken to Magnet Insurance's managing director, Tony Bound, to discuss the above; not that it's necessarily anything to do with Magnet but his responses are reassuring.

 

Providing the organiser states that the set-up date is the starting point of the cover and that the breakdown date is the end point of the cover (that could be a Thursday to Monday in the case of bigger shows) then there should be no issue. Premiums have, at this time, remained unaffected by the events at Stamford so there should be no reason that anyone using Magnet Insurance should be unduly concerned or be disadvantaged by those events. The only stipulation is that the premises should be secured overnight and there is no stipulation within the policy that there should be alarmed or have on-site security.

 

It's also re-assuring to know that the claim was promptly investigated and paid out for in the Stamford case.

 

Maybe it's worth asking the event organiser which insurer they are using and what the start/end dates and times of the policy are?

[Deltic]

Most exhibition policies provide cover Home then back to Home.  As Andy states the cover for overnight should also cover the set-up and close-down periods - as long as the organising group/individual has made this clear in their submission.

 

For Traders then that would be down to their own cover agreement with their insurers, but will also normally cover money in transit - subject to certain stipulations.

[RedgateModels]

Thanks Andy,

 

@NESST2 Information useful for next year

 

Personally I always take my loco stock box away from the venue overnight - too much time and effort spent to risk damage or loss whatever the insurance

[Neil]

19 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

Thanks Andy,

 

@NESST2 Information useful for next year

 

Personally I always take my loco stock box away from the venue overnight - too much time and effort spent to risk damage or loss whatever the insurance

 

I do that too for exactly the same reason. When damage/loss occurs to models the phrase which seems to be most frequently repeated is that 'money can't fully compensate'. I guess that Market Deeping has brought this into sharp focus for many.

[Paul80]

I don't know if its as a result of Market Deeping  but I seem to be seeing a lot more one day shows this coming year

[AY Mod]

24 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

I don't know if its as a result of Market Deeping  but I seem to be seeing a lot more one day shows this coming year

 

I doubt it is anything to do with the Stamford issue (even if the observation has any substance), it is more the reality of the costs of a venue for a long weekend plus additional nights' accommodation for a 33% increase in attendance. There is also the factor of new shows starting off who initially keep to a one-day format. 

[DutyDruid]

On 20/08/2019 at 15:45, Chris M said:

 

"Insurance:

Our insurer has advised us that they would be unable to cover the insurance of rolling stock left in the hall on Friday night.

 

 

Is it reasonable to ask if we know if this is the mainstream insurer that most clubs use?

[BigAndy]

Before we get into a long and drawn out discussion, everyone should read Andy Y's post above.............

 

So long as the host club state to their Insurers that setting up will be on the Friday - as most two day show's do - then there WON'T be a problem! I've exhibited at shows up and down the country, and all of them, as far as I know, start their Insurance cover on the Friday of setting up - as you are then covered from leaving your house on the Friday, to getting home again Sunday evening.

 

Personally, I think it's more to do with the host club not wanting to pay for an additional days cover - doesn't make sense otherwise.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[PMP]

5 hours ago, BigAndy said:

(snip) and all of them, as far as I know, start their Insurance cover on the Friday of setting up - as you are then covered from leaving your house on the Friday, to getting home again Sunday evening.

 

 This is not necessarily the case, please check the small print, or ask, to ensure you are covered door to door. I exhibited at one location, and in a bored moment looked at the cover. It was explicitly only covering on site at the venue, transfer to and from home was not included, and wasn’t an option.

 

No claim was required but it was a sobering thought to realise the most ‘risky’ part of the weekend wasn’t covered. The show no longer runs, but do check, because clearly some events may not cover in transit, don’t assume they do. Again in my experience most shows do offer this cover,so it’s unlikely to be a widespread practice.

[t-b-g]

I would like to think that any exhibition organiser, no matter what the size of show, will provide cover from leaving home to getting back there again for exhibitors and demonstrators. I also read the small print of a show insurance and was surprised to see that there was a £1000 excess on all claims. That would be a nasty shock if you lost a £900 kit built loco through theft.

 

I think Market Deeping will have a long term impact on the hobby as it has brought it home just what could happen. If it makes exhibitors and organisers take a long hard look at their insurance arrangements upgrading or changing them if necessary, then that can only be for the good.

 

I will certainly be checking details of insurance before I attend any show from now on.

[Worsdell forever]

10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I would like to think that any exhibition organiser, no matter what the size of show, will provide cover from leaving home to getting back there again for exhibitors and demonstrators...

 

Just in case a layout has to be taken out of the car on the side of a busy dual carriageway to change a wheel... 

[rockershovel]

I would ALWAYS read ANY insurance cover, at least once. Insurance is, in essence, a business in which competing providers seek to offer rival business models for profit. 

 

I’ve had quite a lot of experience of event insurance from my motorcycle racing days, and travel insurance through many years of overseas contract work (and for that matter, travelling to and around the USA) and I would always check what was, and wasn’t covered. 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by rockershovel

[PaulRhB]

11 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 and was surprised to see that there was a £1000 excess on all claims. That would be a nasty shock if you lost a £900 kit built loco through theft.

 

That would be for the organiser to pay as it may involve several exhibitiors items. They agree the contract for the excess, unless you sign to say you are liable for the excess in the show paperwork it isn’t your contract. Just make sure to read the show paperwork carefully. I’ve refused to do a show because they didn’t actually cover the layouts just liability for accidents etc. 

Edited August 24, 2019 by PaulRhB

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

That would be for the organiser to pay as it may involve several exhibitiors items. They agree the contract for the excess, unless you sign to say you are liable for the excess in the show paperwork it isn’t your contract. Just make sure to read the show paperwork carefully. I’ve refused to do a show because they didn’t actually cover the layouts just liability for accidents etc. 

 

It was an excess for each individual claim. Not a total for a multi exhibitor incident. In that instance I did speak with the organisers and it was agreed (in writing) that it wouldn't apply to our exhibit but I wonder how many others would have read through all the small print and queried it.

 

 

[PaulRhB]

Sounds like a poor policy then as other shows request the valuable individual items info in advance so it can be made as one claim. 

Any club, or bigger, show invite should include insurance and as you say you need to check what’s written. If they say you are covered home to home they are responsible for the excess as the policy holder unless you specifically sign to say you accept to pay it. I’ve heard of shows not wanting to claim because of the excess but as was pointed out to them it was that or pay it from their profit. Main thing is you need to put any claim in writing with either on site photos of damage, police reference for thefts or linked to your car insurance claim if travelling to or from. Basically verifiable additional evidence for the claim. 

[DutyDruid]

Sorry, working on my phone in a field at a festival in Kent so typing is difficult and quoting and editing down previous posts is also problematic. 

 

About excesses and more particularly terms. 

 

We, Fareham, were caught out some years ago. We routinely supported a show put on by a youth charity and we were always led to believe it was run under John Dennison's scheme (that dates this). A change of organiser led to the letter inviting us to take part the following year saying they provided 3rd party insurance under their national body and that our home collection insurance would cover our models while they were at the venue. 

 

One exchange of blunt emails followed by a phone conversation led to a very arrogant treasurer of the host organisation telling me that it was illegal to insure something you don't own and that I was stupid to think something like the Dennison scheme could legally exist. 

 

Needless to say, we stopped supporting them as did a number of other clubs. It eventually transpired that they had never actually taken out Dennison (or any other) insurance which frightened us because one year our trailer carrying our flagship layout was almost taken out by a truck on the A34 on the way home on the Sunday evening. 

 

Moral: We now look for insurance details and if I don't see them we ask. 

[Giles]

A possible - though onerous solution for stock could be for the Host to provide 'site boxes' - lockable steel chests for storing power tools etc., that can be hired from many hire companies. It's another layer of organisation, hardware and expense, but it may be of help in the future....

[rockershovel]

On 24/08/2019 at 20:57, DutyDruid said:

Sorry, working on my phone in a field at a festival in Kent so typing is difficult and quoting and editing down previous posts is also problematic. 

 

About excesses and more particularly terms. 

 

We, Fareham, were caught out some years ago. We routinely supported a show put on by a youth charity and we were always led to believe it was run under John Dennison's scheme (that dates this). A change of organiser led to the letter inviting us to take part the following year saying they provided 3rd party insurance under their national body and that our home collection insurance would cover our models while they were at the venue. 

 

One exchange of blunt emails followed by a phone conversation led to a very arrogant treasurer of the host organisation telling me that it was illegal to insure something you don't own and that I was stupid to think something like the Dennison scheme could legally exist. 

 

Needless to say, we stopped supporting them as did a number of other clubs. It eventually transpired that they had never actually taken out Dennison (or any other) insurance which frightened us because one year our trailer carrying our flagship layout was almost taken out by a truck on the A34 on the way home on the Sunday evening. 

 

Moral: We now look for insurance details and if I don't see them we ask. 

 

It is contrary to insurance practice, and the terms of many policies, to insure something already insured elsewhere.  I don't believe it us illegal, though someone might know otherwise? 

 

I rather doubt that your home contents insurance covers a layout at an exhibition, least of all a club layout which is not stored at your home anyway. 

 

It is illegal to insure something you have no vested, or other contractual interest in. But anything where there is a risk and you have an interest, you can insure at a price. There are whole insurance sectors covering commercial risks, from loss of profit due to unforeseen conditions, to your client going into receivership. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by rockershovel

[polybear]

5 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

It is contrary to insurance practice, and the terms of many policies, to insure something already insured elsewhere.  I don't believe it us illegal, though someone might know otherwise? 

 

 

 

Very much doubt it is illegal, however if two companies can be held liable for the same loss then I suspect it'll mean half each etc.

Alternatively, if the claim is large, it could each up with two companies arguing between themselves as to who is liable.  Worse still, each company could be saying to the policy holder "Not us, talk to them" etc....that wouldn't be fun.

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, polybear said:

 

Very much doubt it is illegal, however if two companies can be held liable for the same loss then I suspect it'll mean half each etc.

Alternatively, if the claim is large, it could each up with two companies arguing between themselves as to who is liable.  Worse still, each company could be saying to the policy holder "Not us, talk to them" etc....that wouldn't be fun.

 

The crux of it seems to be that you have no legal claim to reimbursement in excess of the value of the thing insured. It may, under certain circumstances, be regarded as insurance fraud. The insurer or insurers are entitled to resolve between themselves, the level of their respective payments to that effect. 

 

 

[soony]

As an aside to this topic, but whilst we are on the the question of insurance for partaking in exhibitions. On TV it showed on one of the lesser known channels , Police  stopping motorists and checking their car insurance. Many were stopped as the Police asked where they were going, and what were they were doing. Several motorists fell foul of the social domestic and leisure clause, by carrying parcels, and other such oversights. Cars were confiscated , put into the pound , and fees levied.  It occurred to me that taking a layout to an exhibition, regularly, where the punters are charged , and expenses refunded , and a free meal and possibly accomadation could be seen in the eyes of go getting officers might try it on. It might be worth checking with your insurance will cover you for driving with your layout. The insurance company will probably waive any extra fees , or at worse be a nominal amount. Police on TV were telephoning drivers insurance companies and the taking the small print apart with them. Surprising how carrying a parcel can seem like a bank robbery to some keen officers.......

[PaulRhB]

Taking parcels to make money, or a trade stand to a show, is business use, taking a layout to support a show and having expenses returned isn’t business use as you aren’t making money out of it. 

If stopped and asked it’s a leisure activity simple as that. 

 

[polybear]

6 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Taking parcels to make money, or a trade stand to a show, is business use, taking a layout to support a show and having expenses returned isn’t business use as you aren’t making money out of it. 

If stopped and asked it’s a leisure activity simple as that. 

 

 

Just as in a car share arrangement - you are entitled to "charge" passengers, so long as they only pay their share of the costs and you don't make an actual profit.

[rockershovel]

I’ve been stopped in such an exercise, carrying equipment for a motorcycle race meeting. I gave the reason “leisure activity”, showed my membership details for the club in question and the police seemed quite happy with that. So I’d suggest that you carry any relevant club cards. 

 

Uninsured couriers are a considerable problem, inevitably so given the unregulated, cut-throat nature of the business. I was on a site last year where a courier was literally arrested outside the gates, driving an elderly estate car crammed with boxes. Very few such casual couriers do it once, after all. There are also the issues of tax evasion which are endemic in casualised contract work. 

 

So no, one or two boxes aren’t much, but the likely implications are quite considerable. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by rockershovel