The long term effect of Market Deeping

[jonhall]

On 20/08/2019 at 16:03, AY Mod said:

I have just spoken to Magnet Insurance's managing director, Tony Bound, to discuss the above; not that it's necessarily anything to do with Magnet but his responses are reassuring.

 

Providing the organiser states that the set-up date is the starting point of the cover and that the breakdown date is the end point of the cover (that could be a Thursday to Monday in the case of bigger shows) then there should be no issue.

 

So in the case of a large two day show with a set up on Friday.... If the layout is in transit at any point on Friday it would be covered, but if the layout was travelling from further afield, and set off on Thursday there i a risk that there may be a gap in cover? I guess the Monday travellers are probably not usually covered, because most two day shows will be clear of the halls by 9pm on Sunday.

 

Something to think about.

 

Jon

[DutyDruid]

11 hours ago, soony said:

As an aside to this topic, but whilst we are on the the question of insurance for partaking in exhibitions. On TV it showed on one of the lesser known channels , Police  stopping motorists and checking their car insurance. Many were stopped as the Police asked where they were going, and what were they were doing. Several motorists fell foul of the social domestic and leisure clause, by carrying parcels, and other such oversights. Cars were confiscated , put into the pound , and fees levied.  It occurred to me that taking a layout to an exhibition, regularly, where the punters are charged , and expenses refunded , and a free meal and possibly accomadation could be seen in the eyes of go getting officers might try it on. It might be worth checking with your insurance will cover you for driving with your layout. The insurance company will probably waive any extra fees , or at worse be a nominal amount. Police on TV were telephoning drivers insurance companies and the taking the small print apart with them. Surprising how carrying a parcel can seem like a bank robbery to some keen officers.......

 

This is an interesting point. 

 

One of the things I do with my "life after formal work" is to crew with the medical team at Hippy Festivals - which I do on a voluntary basis and involves being the Hospital Car Service if needed; I also do work for my sailing club (I get bar snacks from the cash and carry), again on a volunteer basis - plus (obviously) doing things on the Exhibition Circuit.

 

My employment status on my car Insurance is shown as retired, occasional voluntary work, business use allowed for secondary employment.

 

The interesting thing is that when I changed cars last year I was put under pressure by the dealer to go with the "manufacturer approved insurance" as I was buying an ex-works and nearly new car and the manufacturer sponsored insurance guaranteed repairs with genuine manufacturer parts and by an accredited volvo dealership.

 

The problem with that scheme was that they wouldn't wear the "occasional voluntary work" bit; according to them "Retired means Retired".

 

Having chewed this over with my present insurer during the car change, they were happy, happy with my festival bits, happy with my sailing club involvement and happy with my exploits on ModelRailway.TV (no, I was never paid for that so it too counts as voluntary work).

 

And best of all?  When I first set that voluntary work thing up with Direct Line I got a £20 refund on the grounds that doing voluntary work was seen as a good thing - it reflected that I was less of a risk because I was (supposedly) a more responsible member of society...

 

My advice to anyone in a similar situation is to inform your insurer that you do occasional voluntary work and to get occasional business use for that occupation; according to my current insurer that should cover the sort of situations being discussed.

 

Elliott

[bbishop]

23 hours ago, soony said:

As an aside to this topic, but whilst we are on the the question of insurance for partaking in exhibitions. On TV it showed on one of the lesser known channels , Police  stopping motorists and checking their car insurance. Many were stopped as the Police asked where they were going, and what were they were doing. Several motorists fell foul of the social domestic and leisure clause, by carrying parcels, and other such oversights. Cars were confiscated , put into the pound , and fees levied.  It occurred to me that taking a layout to an exhibition, regularly, where the punters are charged , and expenses refunded , and a free meal and possibly accomadation could be seen in the eyes of go getting officers might try it on. It might be worth checking with your insurance will cover you for driving with your layout. The insurance company will probably waive any extra fees , or at worse be a nominal amount. Police on TV were telephoning drivers insurance companies and the taking the small print apart with them. Surprising how carrying a parcel can seem like a bank robbery to some keen officers.......

 

I'm a Community First Responder with the London Ambulance Service.  It's a requirement that my insurer is aware of and agrees to the use of my car when I'm on duty.

 

Bill 

[Guest JiLo]

On 29/08/2019 at 22:30, soony said:

As an aside to this topic, but whilst we are on the the question of insurance for partaking in exhibitions. On TV it showed on one of the lesser known channels , Police  stopping motorists and checking their car insurance. Many were stopped as the Police asked where they were going, and what were they were doing. Several motorists fell foul of the social domestic and leisure clause, by carrying parcels, and other such oversights. Cars were confiscated , put into the pound , and fees levied.  It occurred to me that taking a layout to an exhibition, regularly, where the punters are charged , and expenses refunded , and a free meal and possibly accomadation could be seen in the eyes of go getting officers might try it on. It might be worth checking with your insurance will cover you for driving with your layout. The insurance company will probably waive any extra fees , or at worse be a nominal amount. Police on TV were telephoning drivers insurance companies and the taking the small print apart with them. Surprising how carrying a parcel can seem like a bank robbery to some keen officers.......

Taking your layout to an exhibition and having your expenses covered is well within the 'domestic and leisure' clause.  Getting paid for using your vehicle as a means to carry out paid work is a different matter.

[Chris M]

I checked about taking layouts to exhibitions when I changed insurance companies and Direct Line said that was acceptable "social & domestic pleasure". On a slightly different tack my old insurance company, Saga, would stress every time I spoke to them that as was retired and insured for SDP use only I would not be insured if I decided to help out in a charity shop and used the car to get there; I would have to add going to work to the policy. 

[DutyDruid]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

On a slightly different tack my old insurance company, Saga, would stress every time I spoke to them that as was retired and insured for SDP use only I would not be insured if I decided to help out in a charity shop and used the car to get there; I would have to add going to work to the policy. 

 

Yep Chris, Pretty much the way my conversation went with Volvo Owners Insurance.  Sadly I never did get to the bottom of what I had to do in order to insure myself to do volunteer work, it seemed to be a totally alien concept to them.

[DutyDruid]

On 30/08/2019 at 08:13, jonhall said:

So in the case of a large two day show with a set up on Friday.... If the layout is in transit at any point on Friday it would be covered, but if the layout was travelling from further afield, and set off on Thursday there i a risk that there may be a gap in cover? I guess the Monday travellers are probably not usually covered, because most two day shows will be clear of the halls by 9pm on Sunday.

 

Interesting point Jon.  We regularly load on a Thursday (Club Night) and then move the trailer to a convenient place to collect it from on the Friday or Saturday morning (sometimes my drive, sometimes the parking lot behind another member's flat).  So far, never done a Monday return but it is on the horizon.

 

Thinks: Perhaps we ought to run this one past Tony Bound to see where the land lies.

[JimFin]

Insurance is a complex subject but to add a couple of observations, Other than as a personal and exhibition organiser customer I have no involvement with Magnet so am quoting their details as I have access to them -

 

as far as I can see with Magnet, the number of days does not affect the premium they charge so including the set up day would never be a concern with them.

 

Personally I am happy that organisers arrange insurance as they would certainly want the cancellation / public liability etc. As far as my layout and my stock are concerned, I want to have my own cover anyway and the standard Magnet policy covers -

 

"The policy covers loss or damage to your Model Railway, including Garden Railways and Model Railway Engineers:

whilst kept in your own home, garage or other outbuilding whilst in transit anywhere in the UK, and whilst at exhibitions in the UK.

The policy provides cover for your layout, locomotives and rolling stock, scenery and track work, scale model buildings, electrical control equipment and wiring and other model accessories and tools, memorabilia, photos, books, DVDs and all other property used in connection with your model railway or model engineering activities."

 

In my own case, my 3d printer is included as a specific item as a tool.

 

On 31/08/2019 at 08:26, DutyDruid said:

 

We regularly load on a Thursday (Club Night) and then move the trailer to a convenient place to collect it from on the Friday or Saturday morning (sometimes my drive, sometimes the parking lot behind another member's flat).

 

 

In that instance, I think most insurers would just say no - Again Magnet are specific about  trailer security as a requirement - "Fitting security devices and keeping trailers in a locked building or locked compound" Having previously been involved with motorsport I can say that that is the same condition as applied to competition car trailers.

 

 

 

[ardbealach]

I have had a look at my Magnet Insurance policy for my model railway and I have been happy with what it offered when my layout was simply in my secure shed here at home.  

 

Now the layout is going to exhibitions I have a number of concerns with exhibition insurance and would welcome the thoughts of other modellers on this matter.

 

When my layout goes to shows it is covered by the exhibition manager's insurance for that show.  I have completed a number of exhibition forms for the layout with the standard request for the insurance value of the layout.  But I have never seen any written confirmation that the exhibition manager has taken out the insurance - I am sure that it has been - and I have never been made aware of any limitations, or requirements, of the exhibition policy which might affect my layout.   

 

And I have never been sure if the insurance by the exhibition manager is covered from home to home, or just over the period that the exhibition is at the venue and the set up and taking down times.  Some venues are at a distance and as a group we often stay over on the Sunday night at our own expense and travel back on the Monday.  This travel time would be clearly outside the exhibition times. 

 

The layout is transported to and from the exhibition by van and trailer.  Magnet insurance will only cover to a maximum of £5K in respect of any claim arising from a theft from an unattended vehicle.  So an incident when the team are parked up for an all day breakfast on the way to an exhibition could create a problem if the value of the layout is in excess of £5K.   

 

I can talk to Magnet about my concerns, but it is when we are at exhibitions where there is doubt, and out of the remit of my Magnet cover, where I would welcome the thoughts of others.  It is all something which I have not considered in any detail until recently.

 

My Magnet scanned info leaflet is  attached. (AM)

magnet scan 1.pdf Magnet scan 2.pdf

[AY Mod]

9 minutes ago, ardbealach said:

But I have never seen any written confirmation that the exhibition manager has taken out the insurance 

 

I think more people have been paying closer attention to this of late. When we have a members' day I circulate the policy around the team and would quite happily forward to exhibitors if requested (no one ever does!) for peace of mind. However, I may only arrange it a few days prior once I know the values are unlikely to change. Magnet just take all the relevant info from me and email a copy of the policy straight out.

 

I wouldn't see anything untoward in asking an exhibition manager for a copy of the policy for peace of mind but it may be a bit last minute! We do take a lot on trust within the hobby.

[ardbealach]

I agree a lot is taken on trust in our hobby.  However..... we have seen instances of reports on RMweb of too much trust and modellers losing out financially.

 

However, I cannot believe there are any major differences in the insurance package offered to all exhibition managers, and can see no reason why this cannot be issued with all the other information package sent out to exhibitors in the immediate run up to the exhibition weekend.   I am not interested in the values of other layouts, or what premium has been paid.  All that I require to know is what is the exhibition insurance is offering - and does it cover the needs of my exhibited layout.  And more importantly if there is a shortfall on that offered by the exhibition manager so that I can take a decision on whether to insure that shortfall. (AM)

[rockershovel]

I was involved in an exercise of this sort under my “vintage motorcycles” hat, a few years ago

 

The conclusions were that;

 

1) there were significant gaps in cover, particularly related to transport of machines to and from venues

2) a substantial number, probably a majority of owners and riders were not aware of this

3) event security was often deficient

4) a significant number of event promoters and managers were insufficiently aware of what was actually covered

5) a minority of event promoters and managers either withheld information, or attempted to mislead exhibitors as to their nature and extent of their liabilities 

6) there was a great deal of taking things on trust, or as unverified assumptions

 

a number of these points seem to have made a reappearance in this thread! 

 

 

[JimFin]

1 hour ago, ardbealach said:

However, I cannot believe there are any major differences in the insurance package offered to all exhibition managers, and can see no reason why this cannot be issued with all the other information package sent out to exhibitors in the immediate run up to the exhibition weekend.  

 

Possibly because the Magnet policy document runs to 36 A4 pages of small print and a further 9 pages attached to the schedule covering the legal notices. Copying and sending that lot would add enormously to the organisers admin and I am not sure would actually add much value.

 

1 hour ago, ardbealach said:

I have had a look at my Magnet Insurance policy for my model railway and I have been happy with what it offered when my layout was simply in my secure shed here at home.  

 

Now the layout is going to exhibitions I have a number of concerns with exhibition insurance and would welcome the thoughts of other modellers on this matter.

 

 

Since you have your own Magnet insurance, there is little need to be concerned about what the organiser of the exhibition may or may not cover as the Magnet policy you have has the cover in place - http://www.modelrailwayinsurance.co.uk/cover-summary-collection.htm see the section "Cover" - I hope you find this reassuring, I certainly do as I am confident that whatever shortfall there may be from the organiser, I can always claim against my own cover.

[ardbealach]

Re JimFin's posting.  My Magnet policy document on my renewal does not run to 36 A4 pages of small print and 9 pages of legal notices.  Unless of course I received this plethora of paperwork some years ago when I took out the insurance in the first place with Magnet.  I would agree this amount of reading matter is unlikely to be read.

 

I have been through the http://www.modelrailwayinsurance.co.uk/cover-summary-collection.htm  which JimFin posted, and which would seem to be addressed to clubs and exhibitions and not to private individuals.   

 

My initial concern is that while I have declared the value of my layout to the exhibition manager for a forthcoming exhibition as a private individual, I do not have any proof that exhibition insurance is in place.  What I am seeking is along the lines of the following as a confirmation which is neither onerous or time consuming.

 

Name of show

Venue

Name of organiser

Inclusive dates of show

Advised value of layout - taken from booking form

Written confirmation that the exhibition insurance is in place for the event with its reference number and insurance / broker contact details.  I have no wish to know of the premium paid or values of other layouts etc.  

 

Confirmation if  the cover extends from home to venue and back to home, or just from the time I have reported the arrival of the layout at the exhibition until check out time with the exhibition manager.

 

While JimFin might be confident that whatever shortfall there may be from the organiser, he can always claim against his own cover.  Why should I make a claim against my own insurance with potential higher premiums through the 'shortfall' of an exhibition manager?

 

For the record the lady I spoke to recently at Magnet was surprised that I never had sight of any insurance documents at exhibitions from the exhibition manager.

 

There is still the matter which I require to address with Magnet. This is them meeting a maximum claim of £5K when my layout value in excess of this figure. This is during the time it is in an unattended trailer or vehicle - which could happen when parked up for an all day breakfast heading to the show.  At the very least exhibition manager insurance should cover for this short fall.  More so if I am penalised on my insurance premiums to cover the shortfall on a potential claim because I take my layout to shows.   (AM)

 

[JimFin]

1 hour ago, ardbealach said:

I have been through the http://www.modelrailwayinsurance.co.uk/cover-summary-collection.htm; which JimFin posted, and which would seem to be addressed to clubs and exhibitions and not to private individuals.   

 

 

If you check you will see that I have quoted from the "Collections Summary" which is specifically the personal insurance not the Exhibitions or Cub Rooms sections.

 

1 hour ago, ardbealach said:

While JimFin might be confident that whatever shortfall there may be from the organiser, he can always claim against his own cover.  Why should I make a claim against my own insurance with potential higher premiums through the 'shortfall' of an exhibition manager?

 

The Magnet policy is not like a car insurance policy with any element of no claims discount so you would not be penalised at renewal.

 

1 hour ago, ardbealach said:

 What I am seeking is along the lines of the following as a confirmation which is neither onerous or time consuming.

 

Name of show

Venue

Name of organiser

Inclusive dates of show

Advised value of layout - taken from booking form

Written confirmation that the exhibition insurance is in place for the event with its reference number and insurance / broker contact details.  I have no wish to know of the premium paid or values of other layouts etc.  

 

In all honesty, it would be an added burden. The cover certificates issued e.g. by Magnet are for a total sum and do not have individual layouts detailed so any information you were given by the organisers, you would still have to take the organisers on trust.

 

I think if you are really concerned, rather than ask the organisers to provide this information to everyone, you could request individual assurance from the exhibition manager of the specific information you require.

Edited September 6, 2019 by JimFin

[DutyDruid]

Chaps all

 

Almost every post given recently references Magnet insurance in one way or another - Individual Collection, Club or Exhibition -and these are all the schemes that have sprung from the work of the late John Dennision.

 

There used to be another player in the model railway insurance field, from memory they called themselves Grosvenor Manx (or similar).

 

Does anyone know if they are still around?

 

I ask because from the very limited dealings I had with them about Exhibition cover, if there were a scheme today with excesses and exclusions then I would rather expect it to be their scheme.  It was at a time when the standard Public Liability cover was £2M and the enhanced cover was £5M; we were putting up road signage (legally with a licence from the Highway Authority) and they suddenly decided they wanted us to have £10M which was beyond the scope of the Dennison scheme at the time so I decided to trawl for a better deal.  The attitude of the chap I spoke to from Grosvenor Manx rang alarm bells and a careful inspection of the small print of their policy (which we didn't use in the end) did indeed have exclusions and excesses in it.

 

I ask again, does anyone know if they are they still in business?

 

Elliott

[JimFin]

1 hour ago, DutyDruid said:

The attitude of the chap I spoke to from Grosvenor Manx rang alarm bells and a careful inspection of the small print of their policy (which we didn't use in the end) did indeed have exclusions and excesses in it.

 

I ask again, does anyone know if they are they still in business?

 

As far as the record shows, Grosvenor Manx International Ltd ceased to be authorised on 13/1/2011.

Edited September 6, 2019 by JimFin

[Happy Hippo]

Another possible and positive effect of the Market Deeping tragedy is the revised perception of the general public towards railway modellers.

 

The general media seem to have suddenly found out that we are skilled and talented individuals or teams, rather than odd, solitary individuals with an unhealthy interest in children's toys.

[Burnham-on-sea]

I took Bridgford to Crewe Works weekend in May 2003, at the request of the LMS Society. I assumed that it would be insured, but didn't ask until after the event, only to find that there was no insurance for the models. I was lucky as despite the fact that the shed was open to the elements the only damage I had was a leaky roof, and we moved the layout a foot or so and it was OK. I was invited back in Sept 2005, not sure now by whom, but I asked and was told that insurance was up to me. A fellow club member who had a memorabilia stand decided to insure our exhibits, but I put my locos on the track in the mornings and took them home at night. I think it cost us about £40 to insure both exhibits. It taught me a lesson. Alastair.

[DutyDruid]

15 hours ago, JimFin said:

 

As far as the record shows, Grosvenor Manx International Ltd ceased to be authorised on 13/1/2011.

 

Thanks for that confirmation Jim, I was fairly certain they had gone. 

 

However, I think the question we all ought to know the answer to is : "Does their exhibition insurance scheme live on in any guise with another broker?"

 

After all, the Magnet scheme as provided by Tony Bound is in fact the original Dennison Scheme rebadged when JD retired, and given what I can remember of the GM scheme I would be a little uneasy asking an exhibition manager to make a claim only to find that the there was an excess we or they had to fork out for, or that there was some sort of unexpected exclusion clause that rendered the claim worthless.

 

Elliott

[JimFin]

43 minutes ago, DutyDruid said:

After all, the Magnet scheme as provided by Tony Bound is in fact the original Dennison Scheme rebadged when JD retired, and given what I can remember of the GM scheme I would be a little uneasy asking an exhibition manager to make a claim only to find that the there was an excess we or they had to fork out for, or that there was some sort of unexpected exclusion clause that rendered the claim worthless.

 

 

I have no idea as the the roots of the Magnet policy but I did my own research before taking it out. Magnet act as the intermediary for Ansvar Insurance who underwrite the policy and provide all the documentation. Ansvar in turn are a subsidiary of Ecclesiastical insurance who are the UK leading provider of insurance to the museum and charity sector. Indeed the museum where I volunteer has most of its cover with them. Ecclesiastical are in turn owned by the Allchurches Trust - a charitable body not a commercial profit making organisation.

 

When you take out an exhibition policy, there is an extensive bundle of documentation provided, including a schedule laying out the amount of cover and excess for each aspect of that exhibition. 

 

The general details of the personal policy can be found here - http://www.modelrailwayinsurance.co.uk/docs/policy-Collection.pdf and the Exhibitions cover here - http://www.modelrailwayinsurance.co.uk/docs/policy-Exhibition.pdf

 

[DutyDruid]

1 hour ago, JimFin said:

 

I have no idea as the the roots of the Magnet policy but I did my own research before taking it out. Magnet act as the intermediary for Ansvar Insurance who underwrite the policy and provide all the documentation. Ansvar in turn are a subsidiary of Ecclesiastical insurance who are the UK leading provider of insurance to the museum and charity sector. Indeed the museum where I volunteer has most of its cover with them. Ecclesiastical are in turn owned by the Allchurches Trust - a charitable body not a commercial profit making organisation.

 

 

Agree Jim, unfortunately I've been around this stuff long enough to have been able to talk to JD himself and I possibly know more about the Magnet policy than it is good for one person to understand - including the fact that it is a Notification Scheme and was originally underwritten by Sun Life.

 

Having now remembered the GM scheme - and become extremely worried by what I've remembered - I think I'm going to give Magnet Insurance a bell when I return to the UK just to check if the GM scheme is still available - on the grounds that I would like to know where we stand when we take individual member's layouts to shows that are covered by it.  Results posted here when I find out.

[ardbealach]

23 hours ago, JimFin said:

 

If you check you will see that I have quoted from the "Collections Summary" which is specifically the personal insurance not the Exhibitions or Cub Rooms sections.

 

 

The Magnet policy is not like a car insurance policy with any element of no claims discount so you would not be penalised at renewal.

 

 

In all honesty, it would be an added burden. The cover certificates issued e.g. by Magnet are for a total sum and do not have individual layouts detailed so any information you were given by the organisers, you would still have to take the organisers on trust.

 

I think if you are really concerned, rather than ask the organisers to provide this information to everyone, you could request individual assurance from the exhibition manager of the specific information you require.

 

All I am asking is for a written single sheet confirmation by the exhibition manager that the insurance is in place over the exhibition weekend.  Not too difficult to provide?  I fear that the more I see of life, the less keen I am to take people on trust - even railway modellers!  (AM)

[rockershovel]

One thing which might be borne in mind is that the MDMRC was, and still is a fairly typical, local club which was promoting an exhibition (with fairly modest sponsorship and dependent upon volunteer labour) in the expectation of turning a modest profit for the purpose of funding its ongoing activities. 

 

From the Chairmans’ subsequent statements, it would appear that “claims from exhibitors have been met” - which is to say, that such insurance was in place and hence, is available at manageable cost, for a given level of agreed value.

 

It would seem that layout owners are reasonable and  justified in expecting that at the very least, they are insured for the replacement cost of items like rolling stock, trackwork and baseboards which are their personal assets, have identifiable market values and are being provided so that the promoters might make a return. They might opt to waive that cover, but it should be done by mutual, informed consent. 

 

This isn’t a matter of “taking railway modellers on trust”, just a matter of taking a business-like view of a matter of business. 

 

 

[PMP]

On 06/09/2019 at 21:37, Burnham-on-sea said:

I took Bridgford to Crewe Works weekend in May 2003, at the request of the LMS Society. I assumed that it would be insured, but didn't ask until after the event, only to find that there was no insurance for the models. 

 

This is worth highlighting. If you take a layout or items to an event as a ‘guest model railway’, it’s quite possible that you’re not included under the events normal policy. Something to ask about at time of acceptance of the invite.