HS2 under review

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Laudable, but I doubt there would be sufficient capacity in the UK design and construction industry to undertake a scheme on that scale, all at the same time. Construction is already reporting severe shortages of certain, often "basic", skills in their attempts at recruitment, let alone for the additional specialist skills that railway projects need.

 

 

Quite so

 

Folk should also remember that one of the two big problems which have blighted recent electrification projects was the attempts by ministers to get NR to do too much even though the UKs electrification skills base had been decimated by 20 odd years of inactivity.

 

 

[jcredfer]

9 hours ago, locoholic said:

And the only place that Northerners want to go to is London?

 

Based on your comment, I did take the liberty of looking to see whether I mentioned London and I didn't, I actually said "a destination", which is what I meant to say.  I also took the liberty of checking which direction the lines ran from The North and noted they didn't go to Cornwall, Wales, or Norwich.  But there were, also, other "destinations" it stops at en-route to London.

 

If you are going to attempt to be picky, please don't missquote me or add implications which were not there.  It doesn't do you or your comment much credibility.

 

Regards

 

Julian

[ess1uk]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48284105

in the news again

[melmerby]

The Lords say that the Northern end should be built first (paraphrasing) "As that's where the most need is"

I thought the Northern end was pointless without the London to Birmingham bit?

Dragging up the same old arguments again.

[lmsforever]

I note that a momentum to stop construction is gathering pace in that building next to BIg Ben interesting maybe we will see developments once the current problems are sorted.

[TheQ]

There is always momentum to stop the building until they realise that they would be shown as responsible for stopping the project and wasting all the money already spent. I would be interesting to know the penaties written into contracts for stopping the project. That was the only thing that kept concorde and the channel tunnel going..

[lmsforever]

I think that many many people in the UK will be pleased to see it stopped as there ae a great deal of projects that need the money saved ,also are we prepared to see another overspend as all projects seem to go way ove budget and never open on time.

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, lmsforever said:

I think that many many people in the UK will be pleased to see it stopped as there ae a great deal of projects that need the money saved ,also are we prepared to see another overspend as all projects seem to go way ove budget and never open on time.

So what projects are out there, unfunded, that have a positive business case?

[black and decker boy]

As a counter to the negatives vibes:

 

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2019/05/14/balfour-beatty-warns-hs2-delays-putting-jobs-at-risk/

 

I can also name a few relief roads in Bucks that face long delays or cancellation if HS2 is binned as there are synergies (and joint funding) that would be lost.

 

IMHO it would increase the farcical nature of the UK image internationally and reinforce the perception that the UK doesn’t do big infrastructure with the resultant lowering of interest from global investors. 

[62613]

6 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

As a counter to the negatives vibes:

 

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2019/05/14/balfour-beatty-warns-hs2-delays-putting-jobs-at-risk/IMHO it would increase the farcical nature of the UK image internationally and reinforce the perception that the UK doesn’t do big infrastructure with the resultant lowering of interest from global investors. 

I think I made that point further up the thread. It isn't a vanity project; it's vital infrastructure.

Edited May 16, 2019 by 62613

[billbedford]

4 hours ago, lmsforever said:

I think that many many people in the UK will be pleased to see it stopped as there ae a great deal of projects that need the money saved ,also are we prepared to see another overspend as all projects seem to go way ove budget and never open on time.

 

Welcome to Ruritania...

[lmsforever]

There are plenty of projects around the UK that need funding the NHS for one with the population growing the need for more facilities is growing and at this moment I am seeing this first hand.As to roads in bucks its nothing new BCC has always been pretty bad at maintaining and rebuilding our network plus many of their services are bad so HS2 is not an excuse.The rest of Europe can think what they think of us we are a great nation that has given the world most of its important inventions and will continue to do so. 

[lmsforever]

The majority of the UK will not benefitfrom the line and will only spending in their areas decline not a good thing. 

[caradoc]

8 hours ago, melmerby said:

The Lords say that the Northern end should be built first (paraphrasing) "As that's where the most need is"

I thought the Northern end was pointless without the London to Birmingham bit?

Dragging up the same old arguments again.

 

And once again the key justification for building HS2 at all, and the southern end first, has been completely ignored; That section is coming first because that is where the congestion, and therefore the need, is greatest.

 

[caradoc]

3 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

The majority of the UK will not benefitfrom the line and will only spending in their areas decline not a good thing. 

 

I disagree; I live in Scotland but HS2 will benefit me, and I am more than happy with my small share of the cost coming out of the tax I pay.

 

[melmerby]

28 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

The majority of the UK will not benefitfrom the line and will only spending in their areas decline not a good thing. 

Same argument for Crossrail and any other infrastructure that doesn't benefit the whole country.

So your reasoning is totally pointless.

[Siberian Snooper]

31 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

The majority of the UK will not benefitfrom the line and will only spending in their areas decline not a good thing. 

 

26 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

I disagree; I live in Scotland but HS2 will benefit me, and I am more than happy with my small share of the cost coming out of the tax I pay.

 

 

And I live on the south western edge of England and I will benefit from quicker journey times and cheaper fares to the Northeast via Old Oak, rather than across London from Padd to KX. Always better than Crosscountry. So no problem with my taxes helping to pay for it.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2019 by Siberian Snooper
Tried to scroll up to add more and it posted.

[Joseph_Pestell]

31 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

The majority of the UK will not benefitfrom the line and will only spending in their areas decline not a good thing. 

 

From an economist's perspective, that is a bit simplistic. If HS2 brings greater economic activity to any part of the country, the extra taxes generated will allow the Govt to spend money across the whole country.

[lmsforever]

We shall wait and see shall we just what happens changes in leadership could make change.

[Tricky-CRS]

39 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

The majority of the UK will not benefitfrom the line and will only spending in their areas decline not a good thing. 

 

Majority of population live along its route or close to the ends. 

[black and decker boy]

44 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

The majority of the UK will not benefitfrom the line and will only spending in their areas decline not a good thing. 

It will benefit me on my work visits to the NW and NE especially if Chiltern serve Old Oak.

 

it will benefit my family in Manchester and colleagues in the East Midlands.

 

i admit it won’t help anyone in Devon, Cornwall or East Anglia but neither does the £BN work to convert the M1 & M6 to smart motorway

[Siberian Snooper]

25 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

It will benefit me on my work visits to the NW and NE especially if Chiltern serve Old Oak.

 

it will benefit my family in Manchester and colleagues in the East Midlands.

 

i admit it won’t help anyone in Devon, Cornwall or East Anglia but neither does the £BN work to convert the M1 & M6 to smart motorway

 

It will, if like me they travel op Norf on occasion and want a faster and cheaper trip. Also might save a trip on a poo tube.

 

 

[caradoc]

Just watched the BBC South News feature and a guy is now complaining about the environmental impact of the line.......when it is in tunnel !

 

[Mike Storey]

So interesting how the arguments, as personified by LMSforever, continue against doing anything that does not immediately or directly benefit them. Or even dis-benefits them, despite the overall benefits across a significant percentage of the population, that are projected.

 

It could be used against national defence expenditure (designed never to be used), education (because it grossly favours the better off), but most certainly the NHS, where expenditure is entirely local, except where it introduces the concept of centres of excellence, forcing people to travel half-way across the country, to get the treatment they need (as happened to my wife). Whereas perhaps it should be better directed at the taxation regime and offshoring industry, but because they don't understand that, and the Daily Mail or similar, never publicise it, it is ignored. A little bit of a stab at that, would generate far, far more over the next 25 years, than money saved by not building essential infrastructure. Political? Yeah, maybe, but more about balancing criticism of a prime railway scheme with arguments to look elsewhere. And most of the vital increases in NHS expenditure are needed from the operational account, not the capital account.

 

Bonkers arguments. Especially the one favoured by LMS, and very popular nationally, that the money will be better used elsewhere. Really? The Treasury will just "save" it. It would never get spent on anything else. Are we all that naive?

 

HS2 will almost certainly cost more than the figures currently predicted officially, but then it is very probable that the benefits will be higher than those allowed to be stated under Treasury rules (Blue Book). Add in the synergies with HS3, which are lost if HS2 disappears, and you can kiss your re-balancing of the UK economy a long goodbye.

 

 

[woodenhead]

Big infrastructure projects bring:

• Jobs in construction
• Jobs in businesses serving the construction industry - steel, aggregates, materials plus other service industries
• Provide somewhere for people to learn expertise
• Offer a career path through higher education to university to employment 
• Generate taxable income for the exchequer
• Provide ongoing growth and renewal of our structure

Then there is the railway itself:

• Jobs
• Suporting service industries
• Train building
• Ongoing taxable income for the exchequer.

its not just about a high speed railway, but I do share concerns that the Northern element may be delayed or watered down when we too need these sorts of jobs so that the whole scheme is seen to be equitable.