HS2 under review

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

With the deepest respect, I suggest you put your crayons away.

HS2 is already underway, with early stages of construction taking place right now.

Hypothesising about might have been, is a bit pointless IMHO.

 

As for the idea of running HS2 services through the Crossrail tunnels....we’ll that just totally destroys the whole Crossrail service and the justification for it being built in the first place.

Construction might have started, but it is no guarantee that construction will be completed.

 

I've yet to buy a ticket to Manchester Arndale Centre, yet the station exists, nor have I successfully driven to Junction 6 of the M23, yet the motorway bridges exist.

 

 Crossrail isnt even open yet, part of that reason is those with the crayons upped sticks and left to draw HS2 instead, leaving XR pictures unfinished and needing new sets of crayons to finish the job.

 

That makes a link between both projects, which will continue to draw scrutiny as the XR saga rolls on.

 

However the government has good form on changing its mind, would you argue Picc-VIc was a better solution than Metrolink ?, after 40 years, it turned out yes as now they are linked, but not before crayonistas made their bucks.

 

When money runs out it buys time for different solutions, and weve a critical financial event coming in Brexit, that just happens to equate to the expected increase in costs of HS2.. suggesting that canceling one solves the problem if the other..  politicians like these kinds of solutions, especially if they are unpopular and releases other money for their personal agendas.

 

I think my idea increases Cross-rails justification considerably.. it becomes central to a central London thru route. I’m not sure how you could derive there would be no need and hence close Crossrail from my idea ? Indeed I feel HS2 and Crossrail are vital, the stations are the issue, but thats where those with the crayons make most profit.

 

I think ive answered your points, but there is 148 pages of  talk on here about HS2, none of it will make any difference. Telling me to put my crayons away is equally pointless as you reading this thread expecting change.

 

I know a few people working on HS2 who don't feel secure for the long term at the moment, I dont talk to them about my thoughts on HS2 though, I just listen.

Edited July 24, 2019 by adb968008

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

With the deepest respect, I suggest you put your crayons away.

HS2 is already underway, with early stages of construction taking place right now.

Hypothesising about might have been, is a bit pointless IMHO.

 

As for the idea of running HS2 services through the Crossrail tunnels....we’ll that just totally destroys the whole Crossrail service and the justification for it being built in the first place.

 

Crossrail platfroms a bit short as well!

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Crossrail platfroms a bit short as well!

 I believe the loading gauge isn't very generous, either.

[Mike Storey]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Thanks for the insight, into the social engineering aspect of Stratford, but you've not mapped its relevance in any way to HS1, indeed you admitted the that it failed.

 

It failed for the same reasons as OC at HS2 will fail....

 

People living in Stratford have no need for HS1

 

Social engineering new suburbs of a city is great its needed, but tieing blocks of flats and shopping centres to High Speed Rail is a nonsense mix.

 

How many people take HS1, even by South Eastern, to visit Westfield ? 

How many people will travel from Birmingham to a shopping centre in Old Oak or vice versa ?

 

We agree Stratford is a station that exists for connections, even though I disagree with regards Canary Wharf.. its absolutely rammed in Rush hour, to dangerous proportions... Crossrail should have linked the two, and could reduce the need for passengers to change at Stratford at all.

 

As an ex-Canary Wharfer myself Ive not seen any increase in transport options at Stratford since year 2000... yes 313’s have turned into DLR, 378’s northbound, and their might be new rails, resurfaced platforms, signage and shiny glass and increased frequency, but actual new build rail routes to new destinations.. the only one Ive seen is Stratford to Stratford Intl... which is a shorter distance than this proposed overground to OC connection HS2 passengers are expected to gleefully drag their suitcases down some industrial street towards.

 

back to Old Oak..

 

it doesnt have the connections Stratford has, it has GWR, Crossrail and thats it. No tube, No feed south, No feed North, I dont see a road transport feed. An add on station 1/4-1/2mile away to a low speed connection that itself is an outer london ring is not a connection.

 

Similarly, if I were inbound to Tottenham Court road, I’d be interested to see the time from HS1 to Euston and 2 stops on the Northern compares to HS1 to OC and 3 stops on Crossrail.

When it comes to Farringdon, HS1 to Euston and 2 on the Met, compares to HS1 to OC and 4 stops on Crossrail.

 

if these are faster via Euston, the only purpose of any passenger connection at OC is For Paddington, or Bond Street, unless they are using OC to go GWR back west?

 

if i’m wrong tell me the big picture i’m missing ?

 

Stratford International failed as an international link because it was built primarily with the regional connection to the rest of the network (and ultimately HS2), which would have by-passed St Pancras, in mind. But it has not "failed" as a station on HS1, for SE Trains, nor has the new DLR link to it.. Usage in the year before the 2012 Games was just 0.6 million on each. Now The HS1 station has 2.6 million users annually, and the DLR International station just over 3 million. That compares pretty well to many 2 platform stations on the SET network. So how is it "not needed" exactly?

 

The whole point of the works up to 2012 were to extensively expand the capacity and capability of what was available, where possible, and move or create extra infrastructure as necessary. You have been dazzled by shiny glass, but have failed to notice that we created (or re-instated in two cases) five extra platforms up to 2012, and lengthened/raised several more, and made the whole station level access. Stratford NR station usage has doubled since 2011, to over 40 million pa now.

 

So perhaps your views are somewhat out of date.

 

I still do not understand your point about extending CrossRail between Stratford and Canary Wharf, to "avoid changing". 

 

As for OO, you keep repeating what is there now (as do others), and I can only continue to repeat my suggestion that you read the GLA's planning policy for the area.

 

On journey opportunities, Mike SM has pointed out a number of reasons why passengers change their routes or stick with old ones. Unlike you, I would not dream of trying to change to the Underground at Euston, if I had an alternative. On my frequent journeys from Peterborough to Canary Wharf (our ODA HQ), I did everything I could to avoid using the Northern and changing at London Bridge, eventually plumping for using HS1 from St P to Stratford and then using the Jubilee from there. But we shall see what people eventually do. Getting a seat will affect the decisions of many regulars, for sure, but so will the ease of interchange. Future HS2 to Crossrail interchange at OO would appear to be far easier than any rail-to-tube option.

[Mike Storey]

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The proposed North London Line station for OOC is located only 300 metres from the HS2 station. 0.175 of a mile.

 

It’s the WLL that’s too far away, unless the line is significantly diverted and. There are no plans for that......as yet.

 

 

 

Ron

 

Indeed, and 300 metres is less than you have to walk underground at Kings Cross now to get on the flaming Northern Line......

[The Stationmaster]

8 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Stratford International failed as an international link because it was built primarily with the regional connection to the rest of the network (and ultimately HS2), which would have by-passed St Pancras, in mind. But it has not "failed" as a station on HS1, for SE Trains, nor has the new DLR link to it.. Usage in the year before the 2012 Games was just 0.6 million on each. Now The HS1 station has 2.6 million users annually, and the DLR International station just over 3 million. That compares pretty well to many 2 platform stations on the SET network. So how is it "not needed" exactly?

 

The whole point of the works up to 2012 were to extensively expand the capacity and capability of what was available, where possible, and move or create extra infrastructure as necessary. You have been dazzled by shiny glass, but have failed to notice that we created (or re-instated in two cases) five extra platforms up to 2012, and lengthened/raised several more, and made the whole station level access. Stratford NR station usage has doubled since 2011, to over 40 million pa now.

 

So perhaps your views are somewhat out of date.

 

I still do not understand your point about extending CrossRail between Stratford and Canary Wharf, to "avoid changing". 

 

As for OO, you keep repeating what is there now (as do others), and I can only continue to repeat my suggestion that you read the GLA's planning policy for the area.

 

On journey opportunities, Mike SM has pointed out a number of reasons why passengers change their routes or stick with old ones. Unlike you, I would not dream of trying to change to the Underground at Euston, if I had an alternative. On my frequent journeys from Peterborough to Canary Wharf (our ODA HQ), I did everything I could to avoid using the Northern and changing at London Bridge, eventually plumping for using HS1 from St P to Stratford and then using the Jubilee from there. But we shall see what people eventually do. Getting a seat will affect the decisions of many regulars, for sure, but so will the ease of interchange. Future HS2 to Crossrail interchange at OO would appear to be far easier than any rail-to-tube option.

I think you are absolutely right about HS2 to Crossrail interchange at OOC and probably in the opposite direction as well (the 'starting station' option will, I remain sure, still count for something with a percentage of passengers).  However I suspect the big challenge, at least initially, will come with 'educating' passengers as the idea of 'the London terminus' is well ingrained in many folk (and the Northern Line will probably be more convenient for some in any event as will the illusory proximity of St Pancras International).

 

What a lot of it will inevitably come down to is where people are travelling to and why but it is noticeable how well Stratford seems to work as the interchange station to the Central Line so it does show that travel habits can change as people learn the new routes exist and try them.

[Bernard Lamb]

18 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

The vision of a stratford hub had nothing to do with Crossrail, it was all about the Olympics, since 2000 little has changed in terms of rail connections apart from 2012 related refurbishments.

 

 Stratford Intl has failed in its purpose of enabling long distance commuting, as Eurostar doesn't stop there... remember that idea of commuting to work from Calais and Lille, instead it feeds off the short distance commuters paying premium fares off South Eastern who can avoid London Bridge.

 

Stratfords growth in numbers is much down to its role in Canary Wharf’s growth, commuters to / from Essex. The big miss was not having the Elizabeth line go direct from Stratford to Canary Wharf... it would empty stratford and reduce many many commutes.

 

 

 

 

I think it is a bit premature to talk about Stratford being a failure or a success.

What is it's purpose?

What you describe or something else?

There are currently large developments taking place at Strand East and in the Olympic Park itself with East Bank.

What part are the residents of these developments going to play in the grand scheme of things?

How do they rate in importance in relation to the groups that you describe?

I think we need to come back in five years or so to see if Stratford is working as a rail hub.

I remember seeing a Eurostar train at MK Central and nothing came of that idea either.

Bernard

 

[adb968008]

i’m pretty confident that come the day, most HS2 services will zap through OC without stopping, as operators will be keen to maintain the promised time savings.

 

it happened at Lille, Calais, Ashford and Stratford with Eurostar.

 

If the connections aren't at OC, the connecting passengers aren't there.

 

It doesn't matter how many blocks of flats, shopping centres and lifts you install. If all the above construction happens, OC will be good for local populace to use Crossrail, but I doubt they will use HS2 to commute to work in Brum, though some may use HS2 to get to central london/city  faster than Crossrail, which maybe not what its intended for.

 

Will commuters travel from Brum to work in a sweet little coffee shop on Old Oak Common lane.. i doubt it.

 

I’m left wondering if OC station is a smokescreen for a London agenda to finance construction and development of residential in the west end and hiding it in the pork barrel of HS2 costs.

 

certainly the posts here divert from HS1 / 2 benefits into localised social residential development benefits, which have no link to HS1 or HS2 other than sharing a postcode, and a budget to pay for it.

 

I’d love to see Outward ticket revenues for journeys originating at Stratford International... given the massive residential development supposedly making use of the benefits of HS1...

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by adb968008

[lmsforever]

Well the blond one has taken up residence in No10  lets wait for the announcement that the white elephant is stopped and then an inquiry into the management of said project and their disastarous ineptitude in running said project.All in favour say aye

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Well the blond one has taken up residence in No10  lets wait for the announcement that the white elephant is stopped and then an inquiry into the management of said project and their disastarous ineptitude in running said project.All in favour say aye

 

Given the blond one has now finally got the top job lets wait for him to quietly drop all the nonsense claims he made during his campaign which are unachievable and / or unaffordable (even if you did ditch HS2) and realise that cancelling HS2 now is a false economy given the money already sunk into the project and the political backlash from other organisations outside the Westminster bauble - particularly given he is leading a minority Government reliant on the support of others to get anything done.

 

In recent months there has been an  effort from HS2 to examine options for lowering the spec slightly which would help mitigate against rising costs.

 

While everyone is entitled to their opinions, I note that you STILL haven't provided a shred of factual information as to how you would fix the very real capacity crisis on the WCML (despite moths, if not years of asking) and continue to simply quote emotional outbursts which undermine any valid points you may have.

 

However seeing as we are speaking from the heart (and not the head) perhaps I should copy you and state I look forward to the situation in 20 years when HS2 from London to Crewe is a well used rail artery just like HS1 (though possibly running at a slightly slower speed etc to trim costs). 'All in favour say aye' as you put it...

[Mike Storey]

3 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I think it is a bit premature to talk about Stratford being a failure or a success.

What is it's purpose?

What you describe or something else?

There are currently large developments taking place at Strand East and in the Olympic Park itself with East Bank.

What part are the residents of these developments going to play in the grand scheme of things?

How do they rate in importance in relation to the groups that you describe?

I think we need to come back in five years or so to see if Stratford is working as a rail hub.

I remember seeing a Eurostar train at MK Central and nothing came of that idea either.

Bernard

 

 

Quite so. There have been, are and planned, enormous developments in that part of East London, driven by access to Canary Wharf and London City Airport (and the additional attractions of CrossRail and HS1). But the "local residents" have changed dramatically in the last 10 years - they were changing as my mob moved in. I just don't know where they went. That is the warning I keep making for HS3, as regards its social aspects - is this what you really want?

 

But Stratford is already a proven rail hub - 40 million passenger journeys enter, transfer or exit the station per year, double that of just 8 years ago. 

 

The issue is that, even at moderate growth assumptions, London's population will increase by around another 2 million over the next 25 years. That is why the GLA are turning their attention to West London, and Old Oak gives one of the greatest opportunities for radical change, inside their boundary. (The other is development driven by the incredible success of the "white elephant" of Ebbesfleet, but outside the GLA's powers.)

 

[Mike Storey]

54 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Well the blond one has taken up residence in No10  lets wait for the announcement that the white elephant is stopped and then an inquiry into the management of said project and their disastarous ineptitude in running said project.All in favour say aye

 

As said before, he is not Mr President, and cannot simply cancel an authorised Act of Parliament, although I guess he could starve it of money, but even that would require approval of a budget statement. Given the recent, large majority supporting Stage 2b in the Commons and the Lords, I just don't see it. But with this lot, who knows.

[Davexoc]

52 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Well the blond one has taken up residence in No10  lets wait for the announcement that the white elephant is stopped and then an inquiry into the management of said project and their disastarous ineptitude in running said project.All in favour say aye

Perhaps he'll announce that rather than scrap all the groundwork already under way, they'll switch the route to become the M41 and make it four lanes all the way. That'll give Aylesbury a proper bypass....

[pete_mcfarlane]

55 minutes ago, Davexoc said:

Perhaps he'll announce that rather than scrap all the groundwork already under way, they'll switch the route to become the M41 and make it four lanes all the way. That'll give Aylesbury a proper bypass....

That would make getting to Scaleforum a lot easier.....

[DavidLong]

Not looking good . . .

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/26/boris-johnson-appoints-arch-critic-of-hs2-as-transport-adviser

 

Although Ms Truss has been moved on from the Treasury and replaced by Rishi Sunak of whom we know little. Although, quelle surprise, he's a Leaver! Oh, and he has a vast majority in North Yorkshire. His Wikipedia page is surprisingly brief: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishi_Sunak

 

My dream of travelling on HS2 before I shuffle off this mortal coil seems to be fading by the day.

 

David

[lmsforever]

They are talking 2030 so its a long way a way  but with the police improvements announced today the money could come from this from the white elephant so stopping its construction maybe?

[rockershovel]

On 24/07/2019 at 20:43, Mike Storey said:

 

Quite so. There have been, are and planned, enormous developments in that part of East London, driven by access to Canary Wharf and London City Airport (and the additional attractions of CrossRail and HS1). But the "local residents" have changed dramatically in the last 10 years - they were changing as my mob moved in. I just don't know where they went. That is the warning I keep making for HS3, as regards its social aspects - is this what you really want?

 

But Stratford is already a proven rail hub - 40 million passenger journeys enter, transfer or exit the station per year, double that of just 8 years ago. 

 

The issue is that, even at moderate growth assumptions, London's population will increase by around another 2 million over the next 25 years. That is why the GLA are turning their attention to West London, and Old Oak gives one of the greatest opportunities for radical change, inside their boundary. (The other is development driven by the incredible success of the "white elephant" of Ebbesfleet, but outside the GLA's powers.)

 

 

Where did they go? Forced out by gentrification, property speculation, loss of employment and constant mass immigration. The East End has never been any different. 

 

Look at the rotten, post-medieval or post-Restoration East End described by Dickens, the slum of Jacobs Island, home to Bill Sykes; where is it now? Where are the narrow alleys and courtyards once stalked by the Ripper? Disappeared under the concrete of Canary Wharf. Where are the Jewish Russian and Polish migrants of Sherlock Holmes’ London, or the Chinese opium den which appears in The Man With The Twisted Lip? 

 

My late parents’ generation left London in the 1960s as the closure of the docks, and the chronic ruined state of much of the Blitz damage (and attendant housing shortages) enticed them to the New Towns of the Medway and East Anglia. 

 

Places like Newham and Brixton have changed twice over in a single lifetime. That’s London for you. 

 

[Richard E]

1 hour ago, lmsforever said:

They are talking 2030 so its a long way a way  but with the police improvements announced today the money could come from this from the white elephant so stopping its construction maybe?

the cost of the additional police is £1bn so a mere drop in the ocean compared to the cost of HS2. The rail project won't be affected by it.

[black and decker boy]

Rumours abound that HS2 is safe and NPR is again up-specified to HS3

 

It’s no lose situation.

Press on with HS2. It’s got permission, it’s funded. It’s generating jobs & private investment. Any cost overruns are 10 years away from becoming public by which time BoJo will be retired on a sunny beach.

HS3 is 10 years away from costing much at all as it will take that long for a route to be defined, consultations held, parliament to consider etc before tendering & construction can start. Again, BoJo will be retired before it crashes or costs a fortune. In the meantime it generates positive press, probably investment and maybe votes.

 

BoJo has form in spending now and letting successors worry about the bill 

[Richard E]

And in other news Boris Johnson has committed to, at least, making a start on HS3 with a high speed link between Leeds and Manchester. That makes HS2 look pretty safe to me despite the review due later this year.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49132477

[John Tomlinson]

2 hours ago, Richard E said:

And in other news Boris Johnson has committed to, at least, making a start on HS3 with a high speed link between Leeds and Manchester. That makes HS2 look pretty safe to me despite the review due later this year.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49132477

You could argue this the other way.

 

Fund HS3 by zapping HS2, also funds various other things he'd want to do, given the time frame disparity between the two. As a Tory he knows that there isn't a magic money tree to enable him to do everything he wants, plus of course some tax cuts announced in September prior to an October election.

 

Politically, and here's the thing for any of these people, he gets the kudos for investing in the north (or at least saying he's doing so), plus some relief in the Home Counties that HS2 has gone away. Not much consolation to those involved in working on the project I know.

 

John.

[lmsforever]

All inhabitants of Westminster have spent and then left it to others to clear up the mess its been like this since I can remember and that's a long time by the way. HS2 is merely yet another  grand scheme that promises so much and will deliver nothing due to the changing world and Westminster being dazzled by another wonder project .There are many other far more important things to be done in the UK and they are ones that need doing now.Our defences are in tatters,the NHS will need yet more money,social services need complete restructuring,plus many others so a railway line is small fry in the overall plan and should be stopped now.There are plenty of rail routes that could be reopened to provide services that people need and will use ,local links are what is needed and new signalling on existing rail routes so as more trains can use them.There mull that over and next time you cant get an operation on the NHS or social care just think were HS2 sits in the evolving world that is the UK.

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

You could argue this the other way.

 

Fund HS3 by zapping HS2, also funds various other things he'd want to do, given the time frame disparity between the two. As a Tory he knows that there isn't a magic money tree to enable him to do everything he wants, plus of course some tax cuts announced in September prior to an October election.

 

Politically, and here's the thing for any of these people, he gets the kudos for investing in the north (or at least saying he's doing so), plus some relief in the Home Counties that HS2 has gone away. Not much consolation to those involved in working on the project I know.

 

John.

 

That was a lot of the reason that I abandoned civil engineering in the 90s and went back into the offshore oil industry. The government “allocated” substantial sums to the Jubilee Line Extension, which was subject to conditions (specifically, private sector contributions which wouldn’t be forthcoming for two or three years to come), slashed every penny and more of the promised funding from current projects, and stood by while the construction industry entered the worst collapse since the 1930s.

 

As it happened, the Major administration’s plan of “clinging on to the last” meant that they DID end up paying for JLE, and I did spend almost two years initially at JLE and subsequently at Heathrow Express, but it was my swan-song in civil engineering. 

 

Judging by the number of Brits I subsequently encountered in places like Baku, the squandering of engineering and management ability must have been prodigious - very few of them would return. 

 

 

[Mike Storey]

1 hour ago, lmsforever said:

All inhabitants of Westminster have spent and then left it to others to clear up the mess its been like this since I can remember and that's a long time by the way. HS2 is merely yet another  grand scheme that promises so much and will deliver nothing due to the changing world and Westminster being dazzled by another wonder project .There are many other far more important things to be done in the UK and they are ones that need doing now.Our defences are in tatters,the NHS will need yet more money,social services need complete restructuring,plus many others so a railway line is small fry in the overall plan and should be stopped now.There are plenty of rail routes that could be reopened to provide services that people need and will use ,local links are what is needed and new signalling on existing rail routes so as more trains can use them.There mull that over and next time you cant get an operation on the NHS or social care just think were HS2 sits in the evolving world that is the UK.

 

Amazing! You can fund all of that out of a couple of £billion per year saved by scrapping HS2?  Wow - perhaps you should be the Chancellor? Stand aside Javid.....

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

You could argue this the other way.

 

Fund HS3 by zapping HS2, also funds various other things he'd want to do, given the time frame disparity between the two. As a Tory he knows that there isn't a magic money tree to enable him to do everything he wants, plus of course some tax cuts announced in September prior to an October election.

 

Politically, and here's the thing for any of these people, he gets the kudos for investing in the north (or at least saying he's doing so), plus some relief in the Home Counties that HS2 has gone away. Not much consolation to those involved in working on the project I know.

 

John.

I don't think his "new found friends in the north" (e.g. business), will be happy about scrapping HS2 as they are just as vehemently in favour as those in the Midlands.