HS2 under review

[Pandora]

The Great British Transport Report:

 

 A number of smaller alternatives schemes with which to devote the  £56 bn  budget of  the cancelled HS2 (sorry about the  £86 bn)

 

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/taxpayersalliance/pages/16562/attachments/original/1558213640/GBTC_REPORT_FINAL_REVIEWED_18MAY2019.pdf?1558213640

 

The BCA  for HS2  assumed the passengers salaries averaging to £70k per annum each,  let us hope the HS2 review commission clearly see the HS2 project as  a "social - need "  railway, and most definitely not a perk for the wealthy and privileged. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Pandora

[brianusa]

2 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

Can we have an electric railway? That's Reading  to Plimuff instead of HS2 .

 

I've got me 'at n coat.

 

 

 

WADR, keep all that hardware, gantries, poles, wires that despoil the countryside, the other side of Bristol.  Not that it matters  personally much any more, but I would hate to see the Southwest looking like railways in other parts of the country.  Just look at the GW main line and compare it today with only a few years ago!

    Brian.

[JeffP]

2 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I don't quite get your point.

Pray tell what any of that has got to do with HS2, which is what most of us are discussing.

Bernard

Well at a guess it came as a reaction to YOUR post about the German politician saying the UK would end up with sbout the same amount of influence as Guernsey?

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Pandora said:

The Great British Transport Report:

 

 A number of smaller alternatives schemes with which to devote the  £56 bn  budget of  the cancelled HS2 (sorry about the  £86 bn)

 

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/taxpayersalliance/pages/16562/attachments/original/1558213640/GBTC_REPORT_FINAL_REVIEWED_18MAY2019.pdf?1558213640

 

The BCA  for HS2  assumed the passengers salaries averaging to £70k per annum each,  let us hope the HS2 review commission clearly see the HS2 project as  a "social - need "  railway, and most definitely not a perk for the wealthy and privileged. 

 

 

Taxpayers alliance.

Exactly who are they apart from a bunch of self promoting idiots? Most of what they spout is total twaddle without any evidence.

One of their famous cock-ups was about council workers pensions, which they claimed were non contributory gold plated and totally payed for by the taxpayers and they wanted them stopped.

Even after being shown the true figures about how they were actually funded they wouldn't drop their false claim. A case of the evidence not fitting with their beliefs.

 

[PhilH]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Taxpayers alliance.

Exactly who are they apart from a bunch of self promoting idiots? Most of what they spout is total twaddle without any evidence.

One of their famous cock-ups was about council workers pensions, which they claimed were non contributory gold plated and totally payed for by the taxpayers and they wanted them stopped.

Even after being shown the true figures about how they were actually funded they wouldn't drop their false claim. A case of the evidence not fitting with their beliefs.

 

 

As with other events today who does tell any truths these days? It's all spin, smoke and mirrors and lies, damned lies.

[brack]

Is that the same taxpayers alliance with a director who lives in france and er, doesn't pay uk taxes? The one that received hundreds of thousands of pounds in funding donations from anonymous US based donors in the past 5 years and £100000 from a rightwing fund based in the Bahamas (obviously not based there for tax reasons, of course)?

 

Not sure I'd bother listening to them and their trump funding backers when I could read what the people who actually work on transport planning and who actually have the evidence to hand think.

Edited September 3, 2019 by brack

[ruggedpeak]

10 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I don't quite get your point.

Pray tell what any of that has got to do with HS2, which is what most of us are discussing.

Bernard

About as relevant to HS2 as your quoting some German politician doing down the UK - why do so many people feel the need to talk down their own country? There are serious question marks over the need, cost and management of HS2 but this nation has and continues to be excellent and world class at many things, even if building new rail lines isn't currently one of them.

[jjb1970]

M

16 hours ago, Pandora said:

The Great British Transport Report:

 

 A number of smaller alternatives schemes with which to devote the  £56 bn  budget of  the cancelled HS2 (sorry about the  £86 bn)

 

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/taxpayersalliance/pages/16562/attachments/original/1558213640/GBTC_REPORT_FINAL_REVIEWED_18MAY2019.pdf?1558213640

 

The BCA  for HS2  assumed the passengers salaries averaging to £70k per annum each,  let us hope the HS2 review commission clearly see the HS2 project as  a "social - need "  railway, and most definitely not a perk for the wealthy and privileged. 

 

 

 

None of these schemes appear to address the problem HS2 is intended to resolve. Some of the schemes may make perfect sense if viewed in the context of other requirements but the whole report strikes me as equivalent to telling a cancer patient that they'd get better value for money from changing their gout medication so don't bother with the oncology. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by jjb1970

[melmerby]

I notice the BBC news last night reeled out a member of "Stop HS2" who said that the project did nothing for the "normal" rail user because it will only be of use to "fat cats" on business accounts.The person being interviewed emphasised that point.

He said what should be done is providing better and more services for the average commuter.

Exactly how?

They still don't get it!

I despair at how poor this country is at getting worthwhile projects done.

[Mark Saunders]

21 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

M

 

None of these schemes appear to address the problem HS2 is intended to resolve. Some of the schemes may make perfect sense if viewed in the context of other requirements but the whole report strikes me as equivalent to telling a cancer patient that they'd get better value for money from changing their mind gout medication so don't bother with the oncology. 

 

The whole idea of throwing the baby out with the bath water because it is going overbudget just leaves the problem to be solved in another few years!

 

The promotion of the other schemes is wonderful but I doubt their costings stand up, as a quick look on a few seemed overly optimistic!

 

The scheme proposed of duel carriageway from Durham to Edinburgh on the A1 and includes asperation to Motorway standards. Currently the section from Durham to Morpeth and Dunbar to Edinburgh are already duelled. If they have missed this then what else is wrong on their wish list or is it another Dog Whistle to divert attention!

 

Mark Saunders

 

[Mark Saunders]

4 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I despair at how poor this country is at getting worthwhile projects done.

 

I fear that this country is turning into a Banana Republic without the Bananas.

[caradoc]

14 hours ago, APOLLO said:

NO - All the shiny NEW O/H structure masts have been scrapped recently so I believe.

What a fiasco this country is.

Brit15

 

14 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I did at one time hear a German politician remark that the UK would end up having about as much influence in the world as Guernsey. 

I am seriously considering if I need to modify my view on how correct he was in his prediction.

Bernard

 

Surely the most disastrous public/transport/engineering project in Europe, if not the world, is the new airport being built for a major European capital city, on which construction started in 2006, but which is still not open; 2020, or maybe 2021, are now the projected dates. Plus the cost has increased of course. And in which fiasco of a country is this shambolic project ?

 

Germany !!!!!

(Berlin Brandenburg Flughafen)

 

We are of course more than familiar here with the problems encountered on British projects such as the GWML electrification, Crossrail and now HS2, but we are not exactly alone in that. Maybe such major projects are just not as simple to deliver as they first seem ?

 

[Fenman]

5 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

 

Surely the most disastrous public/transport/engineering project in Europe, if not the world, is the new airport being built for a major European capital city, on which construction started in 2006, but which is still not open; 2020, or maybe 2021, are now the projected dates. Plus the cost has increased of course. And in which fiasco of a country is this shambolic project ?

 

Germany !!!!!

(Berlin Brandenburg Flughafen)

 

We are of course more than familiar here with the problems encountered on British projects such as the GWML electrification, Crossrail and now HS2, but we are not exactly alone in that. Maybe such major projects are just not as simple to deliver as they first seem ?

 

 

Isn't Thameslink 2000 still the Gold Standard for ludicrously delayed major projects?

 

I won’t have these Germans trying to steal our “best in class” glory...

 

Paul

[melmerby]

30 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

I fear that this country is turning into a Banana Republic without the Bananas.

That'sa shame. I like bananas

[Rugd1022]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

I notice the BBC news last night reeled out a member of "Stop HS2" who said that the project did nothing for the "normal" rail user because it will only be of use to "fat cats" on business accounts.The person being interviewed emphasised that point.

He said what should be done is providing better and more services for the average commuter.

Exactly how?

They still don't get it!

I despair at how poor this country is at getting worthwhile projects done.

 

That particular chap appears on Midlands Today regularly saying exactly the same thing each time, but doesn't seem to understand (or refuses to accept) the concept of releasing more capacity for the benefit of the 'normal' rail user on the WCML that building HS2 will allow.

[JeffP]

Sorry if I missed this, but has anyone mentioned what this delay might do to the new Franchisees on the WCML? Weren't they going to run HS2 too?

[Ron Ron Ron]

33 minutes ago, JeffP said:

Sorry if I missed this, but has anyone mentioned what this delay might do to the new Franchisees on the WCML? Weren't they going to run HS2 too?

 

The new franchise is in 2 stages.

 

First Trenitalia will operate the ICWC as a normal franchise until March 2026.

From March 2026, that changes from a franchise to a management contract to operate the recast ICWC and HS2 services.

 

Stage one also includes First Trenitalia participating in the preparation, testing and run-up to HS2 operation.

The extended timescales may cause some impact there.

Otherwise this delay may have no effect in the short term.

 

 

 

.

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Ron Ron Ron

[pete_mcfarlane]

2 hours ago, Fenman said:

 

Isn't Thameslink 2000 still the Gold Standard for ludicrously delayed major projects?

 

I won’t have these Germans trying to steal our “best in class” glory...

 

Paul

 

The detail you need to remember about the Berlin airport is that it was finished the best part of 10 years ago, and can't open because the fundamental design isn't safe. That's an entirely different league from something like Thameslink 2000 delivering years later than originally planned. 

 

The only British projects I can think of that come remotely close in recent years is the Nimrod MRA.4.

[Pandora]

3 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

M

 

None of these schemes appear to address the problem HS2 is intended to resolve. Some of the schemes may make perfect sense if viewed in the context of other requirements but the whole report strikes me as equivalent to telling a cancer patient that they'd get better value for money from changing their mind gout medication so don't bother with the oncology. 

HS2 completion of phase one  is so far into the future it will not resolve the capacity problems of today for many years from now, plus it will cost a small fortune to implement and will not generate any revenue income in the form of fare-paying passengers for many years, I think if HS2 goes ahead we are gifting generations of the future a white elephant of debt and excess,  I hope the whole thing is cancelled in the report due in December.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Another major German infrastructure project that is late and massively over budget, is Stuttgart 21. The rebuilding of Stuttgart's main railway station.

This also involves new rail lines and tunnels to divert and re-route the various lines running into the city

 

Steeped in controversy from the beginning and subjected to protests by the anti's (environmentalists, politicians, Nimby's etc, ) costs have been rising and the project is now running 5 years late.

 

Scheduled to be completed in 2021, it is now expected to be open by 2025/6

At the outset, it was going to cost €4 billion, which then went up to €5b and then €6.5b.

In 2017, they were reporting €7.5b plus.

The last time I read about it,  the cost had gone up to €9b.

 

To top it all, there are murmurs that they've completely cocked it up and the expected capacity uplift cannot be achieved due to the design of the new approach tunnels and junctions.

 

.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

HS2 completion of phase one  is so far into the future it will not resolve the capacity problems of today for many years from now, plus it will cost a small fortune to implement and will not generate any revenue income in the form of fare-paying passengers for many years, I think if HS2 goes ahead we are gifting generations of the future a white elephant of debt and excess,  I hope the whole thing is cancelled in the report due in December.

If it had been opened at the time it was originally intended, we would not be waiting long for it and the WCML would be getting it's relief.

Naysayers constantly opposing a project so that is eventually dropped as a white elephant is completely disingenuous.

 

I do feel it will unfortunately now be dropped but that still leaves the problem of the WCML which cannot be solved without extra capacity.

So come on you antis, let's have some some constructive instead of destructive input.

Bear in mind there is little or no scope for more trains, There is little or no scope for lengthening trains, the only logical solution is more tracks.

So antis, where should they go?

Edited September 4, 2019 by melmerby

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, JeffP said:

Sorry if I missed this, but has anyone mentioned what this delay might do to the new Franchisees on the WCML? Weren't they going to run HS2 too?

Yep

And they were going to get nice new trains for it too

These would have acted as replacements for the Pendolinos which will be life expired by then.

 

[lmsforever]

I am sorry to say that with the debacle in Westminster there are going to be many many problems to come and a new railway will be at the bottom of the pile.The survival of GB is the main thing for us to consider there is a good chance of certain countries becoming independent and that is going to be a real danger for us.So be prepared for this railway to be put on the back burner as I think investment in all railways and roads to be cut back and the money spent on social,defense projects.

[62613]

21 hours ago, melmerby said:

Taxpayers alliance.

Exactly who are they apart from a bunch of self promoting idiots? Most of what they spout is total twaddle without any evidence.

 

An extreme free-market pressure group, who (I think) would like government to butt out of providing everything except defence and law and order. The "Invisible Hand" of the "free" market, unencumbered by any sort of regulation, would sort itself out. Of course, any wealth created would automatically trickle down to the bottom.  Oh, and passing any savings of government expenditure passed on as tax cuts to the rich, since that encourages entrepreneurship

 

The biggest problem is that it's difficult to see, anywhere in the world, where even its partial application has even looked like working as described.

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by 62613

[Davexoc]

5 hours ago, lmsforever said:

I am sorry to say that with the debacle in Westminster there are going to be many many problems to come and a new railway will be at the bottom of the pile.The survival of GB is the main thing for us to consider there is a good chance of certain countries becoming independent and that is going to be a real danger for us.So be prepared for this railway to be put on the back burner as I think investment in all railways and roads to be cut back and the money spent on social,defense projects.

Work is still progressing on HS2, so if they get a move on, they'll finish it before Brexit......