HS2 under review

[Dava]

There is talk in 'The Times' & 'Yorkshire Post' that one option is for 2a, the Northwest route which is in the Queens Speech, to connect with the high speed Transpennine link to Leeds and to replace the Eastern Branch that way. Saving some 10bn.

 

East. Mids cities would not be happy but we clearly lack the lobbying power of the West Mids and North.

[phil-b259]

One thought I had would be to temporarily truncate the Leeds branch of HS2 in the Toton area (with passive provision for a northern extension at a later date). 

 

That way you are still providing capacity enhancements to the East Midlands* and Sheffield and also providing a modest boost to some Birmingham - NE  services which would still be useful even if Leeds ultimately was served by a trans Pennine HS3 connecting to HS2 in the vicinity of Manchester.

 

Or at the bare minimum, the phase 3 stub near Birmingham should be connected to the current Birmingham - Burton - Derby line - again giving the opportunity of providing more services to the East Midlands*

 

 

*(given the lack of platforms at St Pancras and the intensive Thameslink service it’s hard to do much to improve the current MML in capacity terms)

Edited October 15, 2019 by phil-b259

[Dava]

Birmingham-Derby-Nottingham is a busy railway with little spare capacity and speed limited by stopping services, just as the MML has little spare capacity through to St Pancras.

 

If the HS2 2b route is cancelled as again suggested today [unanswered questions in Paliament by Ken Clarke & Anna Soubrey yesterday] , then there will be justified protests from East Midlands cities & all the way to Sheffield. The obvious next step is to electrify the full route but capacity gain will be limited.

 

[runs as required]

HS2 hit the headlines in the Newcastle Journal on Wednesday morning 

 

I was surprised to read inside that the leaders of Newcastle City and other north east cities were gung ho for the whole project - from Euston via all the Bucks tunnelling, in and out of the Curzon St station terminus and the Y forking to Crewe and S Yorks.

But then I read on to discover how the present southern softies should be sacked and HS2 taken over by the north to build. along with the N Powerhouse improvements.

 

dh

Edited October 18, 2019 by runs as required
typos

[boxbrownie]

Yeahhh......good old Phil  

[John Tomlinson]

The report by Oakervee is supposedly due today, but I've seen nothing so far to indicate that it has appeared.

 

It may be of course that folk in Westminster have other things on their mind....

 

John.

[Dava]

Release of Oakervee report seems to be shelved until politically convenient. In the meantime the ancient woodlands await their fate....Cheryl Gilham froths away....we resign ourselves to slow, overcrowded, delayed diesel trains on the old MML in a fading, flooded country with a government of corrupt charlatans and shysters....nothing happens...HS2 is cut back by HM Treasury & route 2b is cancelled 'on a good day to bury bad news'.... 

[Pandora]

HE IS ONE OF US!

 

"Douglas Oakervee is introduced at industry dinners as having "come out of retirement more times than Frank Sinatra": on at least three occasions the 72-year-old Londoner told his wife that he would settle down to a life of building model railways."

[Calidore]

Times Online suggesting this morning that the report is recommending HS2 go ahead (seemingly in full) — favourite comment so far “I’ll be gone by the time this arrives, and I’m 10.”

[Mike Storey]

Very surprising. Also reported in the Mail:

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7675019/HS2-ahead-despite-soaring-costs.html

 

Biggest issues are that

 

a) contrary to much opinion, the report concludes that the North will benefit far more than the south, and cites evidence.

 

b) the maximum benefit for the scheme is not realised unless it is built in its entirety, which is self-evident, but the report cites the benefit of just building Phase 1 as not being worthwhile.

 

c) the alternative schemes are just not there, including expanding existing route capacity, and the cost of doing nothing is a massive rise in fares to price people off the network.

 

Naturally, the comments section is disagreeing with all of that......

 

 

[guzzler17]

It was reported on the Today programme this morning that the projected cost had risen from £55m to £88m.

 

Oh if only that were the case!

 

A few minutes later the presenter said the cost is in billions rather than millions.

Edited November 12, 2019 by guzzler17
bad grammer

[Re6/6]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/push-ahead-hs2-risk-decade-123900986.html

 

Thank goodness common sense has prevailed!

[DavidMcKenzie]

1 hour ago, Re6/6 said:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/push-ahead-hs2-risk-decade-123900986.html

 

Thank goodness common sense has prevailed!

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

 

“We need good management and good political support. Not this chopping and changing.”

 

A bit of an optimistic comment, I don't disagree, it's exactly what's needed, just not sure either is realistically likely at the moment. I enjoyed reading a little about the building of the original WCML and the challenges overcome. Showed what was possible with both (reasonably) good management and political support. 

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Very surprising. Also reported in the Mail:

 

 

It was pretty much leaked as being in favour a week ago when the press reported that Lord Berkeley, the deputy chair of the panel and vocal critic of HS2, was upset that he had been given no opportunity to influence the final report.

[Waraqah]

7 hours ago, Calidore said:

Times Online suggesting this morning that the report is recommending HS2 go ahead (seemingly in full) — favourite comment so far “I’ll be gone by the time this arrives, and I’m 10.”

Are you sure they weren't talking about Brexit? 

[Christopher125]

6 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Very surprising.

 

Is it? Doug Oakervee's conclusions seem pretty obvious to me, while the cost has risen none of the arguments are new and the fundamentals haven't changed - if they specifically wanted someone to scale back or kill the project, regardless of the evidence, they could have chosen Lord Berkeley to lead it.

[Calidore]

7 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

c) the alternative schemes are just not there, including expanding existing route capacity, and the cost of doing nothing is a massive rise in fares to price people off the network.

 

Naturally, the comments section is disagreeing with all of that......

 

 

It’s also incredible, on this point, that public opinion generally still seems fixated on this as a speed project, not a capacity one. I wonder how attitudes might have been if there’d been more clarity about the actual necessity for this, rather than the headline journey time reduction. So many comments still read “£88bn for 15 mins.”

Edited November 12, 2019 by Calidore

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Calidore said:

It’s also incredible, on this point, that public opinion generally still seems fixated on this as a speed project, not a capacity one. I wonder how attitudes might have been if there’d been more clarity about the actual necessity for this, rather than the headline journey time reduction. So many comments still read “£88bn for 15 mins.”

As has been said before the PR has been appalling but I think that a lot of it us due to lazy journalism.  The concept of freeing up capacity takes understanding and careful writing about so that the readers/viewers/listeners understand. That is beyond many of the current crop of broadcasting airheads.  They thus retreat to the easy option of concentrating on the speed.

 

Jamie

Edited November 12, 2019 by jamie92208

[boxbrownie]

20 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

As has been said before the PR has been appalling but I think that a lot of it us due to lazy journalism.  The concept of freeing up capacity takes understanding and careful writing about so that the readers/viewers/listeners understand. That is beyond many of the current crop of broadcasting airheads.  They thus retreat to the easy option of concentrating on the speed.

 

Jamie

Hardly any professional journos anymore, not so much lazy as just can’t be bothered..........when I started it was Who, What, Why, Where , When.....and run, I did a lot of Old Bailey stuff 

Edited November 12, 2019 by boxbrownie

[APOLLO]

I agree the journalism is crap - look at this map in the Daily Wail - Leeds - Hull - Newcastle, Liverpool Manchester Piccadilly Bradford ? 

 

Or do they know something we don't (HS3). ?

 

 

Good news - GET IT BUILT. Start building it here, just south of Bamfurlong, Wigan, branching off to the left (south east) to at approximately this location in this old photo my dad took. 45615 is heading north.

 

 

Brit15

Edited November 12, 2019 by APOLLO
typo

[62613]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

As has been said before the PR has been appalling but I think that a lot of it us due to lazy journalism.  The concept of freeing up capacity takes understanding and careful writing about so that the readers/viewers/listeners understand. That is beyond many of the current crop of broadcasting airheads.  They thus retreat to the easy option of concentrating on the speed.

 

Jamie

 

To be fair, BBC Northwest Tonight pushed capacity in their report; with loads of stock video of TPE 170s, Northern Pacers, etc., which they seem to put on every time the railways get a mention.

 

 

 

 

[Kris]

I am very unlikely to every get any use out of HS2, but I am glad to hear that the project now appears to be under much less of a cloud. 

[Pete the Elaner]

I was interested to read on another thread today that traffic on the London-Glasgow services is still increasing...& a further comment remarking that London-Liverpool/Manchester services are even busier...rammed full during peak hours.

I often catch the 1646 LNWR service home from London. There is a 1640 to Manchester, a 1643 to Edinburgh, then the 1646, followed by a 1650, all on the fast lines.

I rarely get a seat on the 1646. I caught the 1643 recently & was squashed in with 13 others standing in 1 vestibule with 2 more in the toilet because there was no room elsewhere.

 

For anyone doubting the logic of HS2, try getting to Euston for about 1630 on a weekday to catch the 1643 to Birmingham. Look how close together departures are, then get on the train & find out just how crowded it is.

It is noticeably more crowded than 10 years ago & it will take another 10 years to complete phase 1 of HS2.

The WCML needs help. Trains can't run any close or any longer. If a new line need building, then why not build it to modern standards?

[jamie92208]

The WCML has always been pretty full in the peaks, certainly since electrification.  I have some very good memories of spendi g a couple of evenings on Bletchley in about 72 and watching one 100 mph express after another, hammer north on the fast lines. From memory one every 3 minutes from about 5pm to 6.30pm.

 

Jamie

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I was interested to read on another thread today that traffic on the London-Glasgow services is still increasing...& a further comment remarking that London-Liverpool/Manchester services are even busier...rammed full during peak hours.

I often catch the 1646 LNWR service home from London. There is a 1640 to Manchester, a 1643 to Edinburgh, then the 1646, followed by a 1650, all on the fast lines.

I rarely get a seat on the 1646. I caught the 1643 recently & was squashed in with 13 others standing in 1 vestibule with 2 more in the toilet because there was no room elsewhere.

 

For anyone doubting the logic of HS2, try getting to Euston for about 1630 on a weekday to catch the 1643 to Birmingham. Look how close together departures are, then get on the train & find out just how crowded it is.

It is noticeably more crowded than 10 years ago & it will take another 10 years to complete phase 1 of HS2.

The WCML needs help. Trains can't run any close or any longer. If a new line need building, then why not build it to modern standards?

Might not be pressure be more quickly and economically relieved by "double-decking" the WCML infrastructure, at least between Euston and Birmingham?

 

Not instead of HS2, which has always been a medium-to-long-term solution anyway, but to put seats under more bums rather sooner.

 

John