HS2 under review

[Legend]

Not an expert in any way but there is a need for connectivity in the UK . Spread the wealth of the south upwards and out .   Fast trains do this and studies have shown people make the change from air to rail around the three hour mark , so even though the investment is London - Brirmingham then up to Crewe / Manchester  it still shortens the time to Scotland .      There are other ways of doing this of course . One way is to expand super fast broadband which would also have the effect of bringing the country together , so you can do your job in London, Glasgow or even North Uist .   Have we looked at getting Freight off the roads and onto Rail . I used to do Junction 11 of M6 north regularly and it was dire, but mainly that was because of all the trucks on the road frequently blocking 2 lanes as they overtake each other.   So I think a proper review should be carried out into connectivity in UK  .What do we actually need into the 21st century. Is this the best way to spend money?  Could we upgrade selectively some existing lines (the original WCML upgrade by Railtrack was not successful- remember we were to have 140mph trains.   We can't just keep chucking billions at it .  

Edited January 22, 2020 by Legend

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, runs as required said:

 

That would be someone like me who spent twenty odd years regularly travelling Newcastle or York to Bristol along the classic old Midland mainline. It raises an aspect I haven't seen addressed so far: through journeys that may partly involve HST 2,3&4 new builds and existing (upgraded) lines .

 

If they are going to be separately "branded" and ticketed entities, it is going to be a nightmare plotting journeys from anywhere north and west of say the new Oxbridge line to anywhere north and east of Brum. 

So travelling around the future carbon neutral "Northern Powerhouse" could still be spent wondering "Do I actually have the right ticket for this service?"

Wife's long dead Uncle Loftus was able to "Let theTrain Take the Strain" with a 'Contract' for the 'club train':  stumbling aboard at Manchester Vic. already half pickled, arriving home completely blotto!

dh

I think this is part of the perception problem with the ill-named HS2.  It keeps being seen as something separate whereas in fact it will be just another line and route within the national network - just another facet of the gradual process of the network, and train services evolving or having to evolve over a period of time.  From Euston to Birmingham you will simply go to a different part of the station to take a very different train to a differently located city centre(ish) station in Bimingham.  yes, connectivity in Birmingham will change for some, possibly many, people but that won't be the first time that has happened and it might not even be the last time it will happen.

 

Years ago when I was a youngster cross -country travel from Reading to York and vice versa might well have involved at least one change enroute and definitely involved using a 'different' station in Reading and the journey took me nowhere near Birmingham.  The only 'common' intermediate place at which the train called between Banbury and York comparing then with now was usually Sheffield - but at a different station then from the one where it calls now. Times change, the network evolves, the network becomes over crowded in various places and new routes emerge.  Nothing new in that - just different.

[Flittersnoop]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think this is part of the perception problem with the ill-named HS2.  It keeps being seen as something separate whereas in fact it will be just another line and route within the national network

But it's not, is it? Nothing like it. Special trains, special signalling.

If the new line had indeed been planned as a normal line to supplement capacity on the WCML it would have had my support from Day 1.

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

But it's not, is it? Nothing like it. Special trains, special signalling.

If the new line had indeed been planned as a normal line to supplement capacity on the WCML it would have had my support from Day 1.

If it is so different, why will it connect into the ECML and WCML as it travels north?

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

Personally, I expect HS2 to be cancelled. After that, there will never, ever be any serious rail building in the UK. To expensive, too controversial and taking longer than the 2 weeks any politician can see ahead. I'd even go so far as to say I don't expect there to be any significant infrastructure building in this country again.

Or maybe next time they will do a better job from the outset to run the project properly? Whatever the alleged benefits etc of HS2, it has not been a masterclass in delivering infrastructure. If it is cancelled it is as much to do with the way it was run as any politics. And there will be significant infrastructure projects in the future. There may not be many rail ones since the rail infrastructure industry has failed to deliver in recent years on high profile projects. Time for those involved to up their game.

 

The days of announcing a politically acceptable initial cost and then using a legion of consultants to provide excuses for poor planning and delivery are over. The public at large won't play that game any more post-austerity. HS2 should have read the runes, but instead lumbers on like a dinosaur hoping the good old days of endless top ups would roll on.

 

 

[melmerby]

10 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

But it's not, is it? Nothing like it. Special trains, special signalling.

If the new line had indeed been planned as a normal line to supplement capacity on the WCML it would have had my support from Day 1.

You seem to be particularly uninformed about parts of the plans.

As the line itself is self contained it can utilise more modern signalling suitable for higher speeds, the trains however will be (at least for the ones north of Birmingham) compatible with the current network and mix it with other trains on those routes it will share with them.

The  trains for the London to Birmingham core could be dedicated to the route and could take advantage of the more generous loading gauge, if desired.

[caradoc]

15 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

But it's not, is it? Nothing like it. Special trains, special signalling.

If the new line had indeed been planned as a normal line to supplement capacity on the WCML it would have had my support from Day 1.

 

Trains will use HS2 for part of their journey and the existing network for the rest; As Woodenhead says HS2 will be fully connected to, and compatible with, the rest of the railway. 

 

Regarding Birmingham stations, I can walk from New St to Moor St in 10 minutes, and that involves crossing busy roads; All that is needed is an undercover route with no roads to cross, linking New St, Moor St and Curzon St, preferably with a travelator. 

 

[Flittersnoop]

10 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

If it is so different, why will it connect into the ECML and WCML as it travels north?

Because the "classic compatible" trains (which will rattlle around on the HS2's enhanced loading gauge) will have to be built to work on both HS2's train control as well as ordinary WCML signalling, thus making them more expensive. Just look at Crossrail to see how easy it is to make trains work with multiple signalling compatibility!

[Flittersnoop]

6 minutes ago, melmerby said:

You seem to be particularly uninformed about parts of the plans.

As the line itself is self contained it can utilise more modern signalling suitable for higher speeds, the trains however will be (at least for the ones north of Birmingham) compatible with the current network and mix it with other trains on those routes it will share with them.

The  trains for the London to Birmingham core could be dedicated to the route and could take advantage of the more generous loading gauge, if desired.

I am not uninformed at all. Your comment contains a big contradiction. You say that route is self-contained, but also assert that it will be just another part of the national rail network.

 

Reading back through this thread it seems to be the fate of anyone not a fan of HS2 to be subjected to personal comments.

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

I am not uninformed at all. Your comment contains a big contradiction. You say that route is self-contained, but also assert that it will be just another part of the national rail network.

 

Reading back through this thread it seems to be the fate of anyone not a fan of HS2 to be subjected to personal comments.

I think what you will find is consensus that we need a new mainline, how fast and it's cost is another matter.

 

At the moment HS2 is the only game in town, it's been through all the cycles of decision making and it is what it is, whether the current government will now pull the plug on something it previously promoted will be interesting especially as soil has been cut, buildings demolished and lot a future employment is tied up in it.

[caradoc]

11 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

Because the "classic compatible" trains (which will rattlle around on the HS2's enhanced loading gauge) will have to be built to work on both HS2's train control as well as ordinary WCML signalling, thus making them more expensive. Just look at Crossrail to see how easy it is to make trains work with multiple signalling compatibility!

 

South Eastern's class 395 sets already operate on both HS1 and classic routes, with the added complication of two totally different electrification systems (which will not apply to HS2), so no valid reason why the same should not be possible on HS2.

 

 

[Neil]

3 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Then several hundred yards extra walking at each end to get on and off the trains... Still not convenient for many people...  . 

 

I believe that walking is supposed to be a beneficial activity. It's one form of exercise that we're encouraged to build into our daily routine. There are many long distance, high speed railway journeys where there is a need to walk. When Mrs R and I head abroad we're faced with a short walk from Euston to St Pancras. Then there's a walk down the platform to board the Eurostar, either at St P or Gare du Nord. similarly if catching a TGV from Gare de Lyon to Spain there's a long walk past the set which turns back at (Perpignan, I think) to the front one which continues on to Barcelona Sants.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Neil said:

 

I believe that walking is supposed to be a beneficial activity. It's one form of exercise that we're encouraged to build into our daily routine. There are many long distance, high speed railway journeys where there is a need to walk. When Mrs R and I head abroad we're faced with a short walk from Euston to St Pancras. Then there's a walk down the platform to board the Eurostar, either at St P or Gare du Nord. similarly if catching a TGV from Gare de Lyon to Spain there's a long walk past the set which turns back at (Perpignan, I think) to the front one which continues on to Barcelona Sants.

I'll tell you what is a long flippin walk - St Pancras entrance on Euston Rd to the South Eastern platforms, I always stop for a Starbucks mid way

[ruggedpeak]

24 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

I believe that walking is supposed to be a beneficial activity. It's one form of exercise that we're encouraged to build into our daily routine. There are many long distance, high speed railway journeys where there is a need to walk. When Mrs R and I head abroad we're faced with a short walk from Euston to St Pancras. Then there's a walk down the platform to board the Eurostar, either at St P or Gare du Nord. similarly if catching a TGV from Gare de Lyon to Spain there's a long walk past the set which turns back at (Perpignan, I think) to the front one which continues on to Barcelona Sants.

That's great until you have mobility problems e.g. get old.

[pete_mcfarlane]

40 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

South Eastern's class 395 sets already operate on both HS1 and classic routes, with the added complication of two totally different electrification systems (which will not apply to HS2), so no valid reason why the same should not be possible on HS2.

Nobody is saying that it isn't possible, just that doing it adds extra expense to the build and maintenance of the trains. Eliminating this complexity from some of the HS2 trains will reduce the overall cost of providing rolling stock. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

That's great until you have mobility problems e.g. get old.

 

With all the complaining at the moment about the railways, I don't think that we should let that comment past without comment. At the big stations, both here and abroad, there are very good facilities and assistance for people with mobility problems.

[Joseph_Pestell]

46 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

South Eastern's class 395 sets already operate on both HS1 and classic routes, with the added complication of two totally different electrification systems (which will not apply to HS2), so no valid reason why the same should not be possible on HS2.

 

 

If "they" were to sensibly descope HS1 to 140mph, the 395 would be an excellent train for the short hop from Birmingham to London.

[melmerby]

41 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

I am not uninformed at all. Your comment contains a big contradiction. You say that route is self-contained, but also assert that it will be just another part of the national rail network.

 

Reading back through this thread it seems to be the fate of anyone not a fan of HS2 to be subjected to personal comments.

Where is the contradiction? Read what I said properly before getting in a huff.

The core HS2 line itself will not have other trains on it, so it is a self contained network with it's own signalling system.

North of Birmingham (at least to start with), it will join with other main lines (WCML & Birmingham - Derby line) so those trains going North of Birmingham will be compatible with the rest of the network so can run amongst them. (Those just doing London to Birmingham don't have to be)

 

In the longer term a new HS network north of Birmingham (HS2+, HS3?) is planned to connect with the NW (+eventually Scotland?) and the NE and also link the NW & NE.

 

 

[Mike Storey]

7 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Nobody is saying that it isn't possible, just that doing it adds extra expense to the build and maintenance of the trains. Eliminating this complexity from some of the HS2 trains will reduce the overall cost of providing rolling stock. 

 

The extra cost per train is negligible as a percentage. Most of the signalling costs go into the lineside balises and the control software and hardware that make the whole thing work. But THAT is far cheaper than trying to build a whole new railway with conventional signalling, which itself will need to be upgraded to the later forms of ETCS etc, as they emerge, just so a few trains can run on both lines.

 

Quite frankly, the whole argument, about Birmingham connections, about cross-compatability, about max speed, about the actual route the line should take, are all pie in the sky - these were all debated over 10 years ago, resulting in 12 options (including "do nothing!"). What we have now was agreed, by parliament, in 2010 (and again under successive parliamentary and NAO scrutiny) to be the best option, given costs over benefits. Some downgrading COULD occur, such as max speed, but that will have corresponding disbenefits, hence the reason why the latest (leaked) report recommends that the scheme should be delivered in its entirety, bar a few million saved here and there.

 

I suspect a decision awaits the new NAO report, due out shortly.

 

There is no Plan B.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 minutes ago, melmerby said:

 

 

In the longer term a new HS network north of Birmingham (HS2+, HS3?) is planned to connect with the NW (+eventually Scotland?) and the NE and also link the NW & NE.

 

 

 

If we were in Germany, France or Spain, I have no doubt that the volume of traffic between London and Scotland would be seen as enough justification for a full high-speed line as far as Carstairs. Here, it seems hugely unlikely that HS2 will ever get much beyond Wigan until such time as aviation fuel is unavailable.

 

And talking of aviation, how does the cost of HS2 compare with the 3rd runway at Heathrow? People seem far less bothered about the cost of that.

[ruggedpeak]

19 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

And talking of aviation, how does the cost of HS2 compare with the 3rd runway at Heathrow? People seem far less bothered about the cost of that.

For various reasons, such as much of the funding (in theory) is mostly from private sources, the CAA so far is keeping a tight lid on the overall cost and challenging HAL to stick to £14bn, and public perception of the benefits of expanding a global airport are greater than a slightly faster train line from London to Brum that costs more than the runway.

[melmerby]

51 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

And talking of aviation, how does the cost of HS2 compare with the 3rd runway at Heathrow? People seem far less bothered about the cost of that.

Probably most think it's been kicked into touch so many times that they don't need to protest about it.

[Pandora]

I read the Stop HS2 campaign group document , and I do not know whose side to take:

 

http://stophs2.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Stop-HS2-Fact-Sheet-Jan-2020.pdf

I also read Lord Berkeley's dissenting report:

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/review?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A8e9c8f87-2650-4aa0-8e0f-0eaf6e709640

 

Lord Berkeley is a Chartered Engineer, I  listen up when Engineers give their opinion,  I cannot say the same for politicians social scientists and  economists.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Pandora

[Flittersnoop]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I think what you will find is consensus that we need a new mainline, how fast and it's cost is another matter.

 

At the moment HS2 is the only game in town, it's been through all the cycles of decision making and it is what it is, whether the current government will now pull the plug on something it previously promoted will be interesting especially as soil has been cut, buildings demolished and lot a future employment is tied up in it.

I would love to share your fatalistic philosophy, but I keep remembering that the tax I pay is going towards the cost of it.

[woodenhead]

11 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

I would love to share your fatalistic philosophy, but I keep remembering that the tax I pay is going towards the cost of it.

I don't agree with Brexit and my tax is going towards whatever happens next, but I accept that it was voted for (twice if you take the last election as the final deciding vote).

 

Parliament voted for HS2 and it's they who will decide ultimately if it is affordable now.  But wouldn't be ironic if the first major casualty of the big fresh unleashed UK is to cancel a massive capital expenditure program designed to resolve transport capacity issues in the south and bring the North and South closer together.