HS2 under review

[Allegheny1600]

 

 

 

1

5 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 I didn't realise that it was the second largest city in the U.K by a considerable margin, at approximately 1.1 million it is more than twice the size of Manchester,

That's not surprising really, Birmingham has considerably more area than Manchester!

Brum = 267.8Km², Manc = 115.6Km²

If you take the area of Greater Manchester at 1276Km² and a population of 2.8 million, add that to Liverpool Merseyside 645Km² and 1.4 million, you can start to see the areas served by HS2 are indeed, populous and really do require serious transport networks.

[PhilH]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

NOT SO!

 

The evidence which gave rise to HS to is extremely clear - the equivalent of two completely new tracks is required berween Euston and the North Weat of England.

 

Its noteworthy that NONE of the naysayers have EVER produced do  shred of credible evidence to prove this is not the case.

 

Would it not be fair to say that everything is based on estimates and best guesses though? Surely nobody can accurately predict the future in these uncertain times.

 

if that someone does exist can you point them in my direction, there's a few questions I'd like to ask...

[The Stationmaster]

Just now, PhilH said:

 

Would it not be fair to say that everything is based on estimates and best guesses though? Surely nobody can accurately predict the future in these uncertain times.

 

if that someone does exist can you point them in my direction, there's a few questions I'd like to ask...

Hello, I'm here.

 

I did some work on WCML infrastructure life and infrastructure cost management back in the early part of the 2000s.  I was specifically looking at traffic levels in terms of number of trains per day etc and the situation then was that they were running a long way ahead of all forecasts for number of trains - which of course impacted on infrastructure life and maintenance.

 

OK so that is over a decade ago but if there was under forecasting then, and earlier,  I would be surprised if any estimates now are going to be wild over forecasts, especially because at times and in various places the WCML is already full.  Obviously economic conditions change, passenger travel and freight movements change and so on.  But when looking at infrastructure enhancement there is little option but to take a long view and to seom extent planners have to rely on historic rates of change/growth - no better sort of crystal ball has yet been invented.

 

I don't know what data has been published but I suspect that at least some of it will be out there somewhere and it is what any review of HS 2 should be looking at - I wonder if it will?

[PhilH]

Thanks Mike, but thinking more of winning lottery numbers....

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, brack said:

I live in a 120 year old house. Every time we take plaster off or boards up you find a new and inventive bodge that needs fixing.

 

 

I lived in a 130+ year old house which itself had no foundations.

The walls were solid, up to 2' thick but most of that was infil between two courses of rough slate.

Make a hole for anything in the wall and you were quickly standing in a pile of various rubble draining out of the hole you just made.

Plastering was interesting as the thickness varied from about 0.5" up to more than 2" to cover the uneven surface.

It meant all projects carried out had to include a fair bit of guesswork, just like HS2

[lmsforever]

I was just looking at the BBC news page when a video on HS2 popped up and surprisingly it was an interesting one to watch covering the overall idea and people who don't want it.Worth having a look at short but good.

[TheQ]

46 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I lived in a 130+ year old house which itself had no foundations.

The walls were solid, up to 2' thick but most of that was infil between two courses of rough slate.

Make a hole for anything in the wall and you were quickly standing in a pile of various rubble draining out of the hole you just made.

Plastering was interesting as the thickness varied from about 0.5" up to more than 2" to cover the uneven surface.

It meant all projects carried out had to include a fair bit of guesswork, just like HS2

sounds familiar, mine is 1906 single brick, foundations one side on that of a ancient pub, the other on not a lot.. taking anything apart is an adventure..

[runs as required]

22 minutes ago, TheQ said:

sounds familiar, mine is 1906 single brick, foundations one side on that of a ancient pub, the other on not a lot.. taking anything apart is an adventure..

Quite so !

At one time I used to have to do this on BR(E) station "improvements".

Bishops Stortford was our bugbear - maybe the first station on BR to try to retain its Victorian form in the changes required. We were praised for this by Ian Nairn but in the event it mostly got torn down and rebuilt as a bogus 'thin' replica in 1960s wire cut bricks.

dh

[APOLLO]

IF HS2 is completely built as planned then Wigan-Euxton, the two track section will be a bottleneck. HS2 will join at Bamfurlong with a flying junction and 4 track (some is 6 track) up to Wigan NW. North of Wigan the Standish - Euxton bit was 4 tracked, reduced to two not that long ago. Easy to reinstate as the electric O/H hedspans still exist.

 

I live lineside here on the two track stretch just north of Wigan - It's a very busy railway now, 24 hours a day, express & local passenger trains mixed with slow (uphill northbound diesel hauled going north) freight. Inject the HS2 traffic and this stretch will be a timetable planners nightmare. This section could, in theory be 4 tracked, parts of it were modified for many years ago - but lots of housing etc is now lineside, again I very much doubt this will even be considered now.

 

We did have the Whelley loop (Wigan avoiding line) that was lifted in the 70's. Now a footpath but the viaduct over the Douglas valley has also long gone. Rebuilding as part of HS2 would solve the problem BUT at considerable extra expense - so won't happen. There are plans for Wigan to be a HS2 hub station - I'll believe that when I see it.

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, PhilH said:

 

Would it not be fair to say that everything is based on estimates and best guesses though? Surely nobody can accurately predict the future in these uncertain times.

 

if that someone does exist can you point them in my direction, there's a few questions I'd like to ask...

 

There are estimates.... and the there are estimates.

 

An 'estimate' backed up with thousands of hours of study, statistical analysis and detailed modelling is far more reliable than one drawn up by one person on the back of a fag packet!

 

Both are officially 'estimates' but I know which one I would trust.

 

Parliamentary bills do no get to royal ascent without considerable background work being undertaken - all of which is in the domain should anyone wish to go back and check on it. That work proves that (i) the lack of capacity on the WCML IS REAL and (ii) that out of all the possible solutions HS2 (or something very much like it - i.e. new build from London through the Chilterns to the North West) is the most cost effective solution. The fact that we do not have a time machine to be 100% sure no errors have occurred does not devalue either the project need, nor the project itself.

Edited August 28, 2019 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

40 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

IF HS2 is completely built as planned then Wigan-Euxton, the two track section will be a bottleneck. HS2 will join at Bamfurlong with a flying junction and 4 track (some is 6 track) up to Wigan NW. North of Wigan the Standish - Euxton bit was 4 tracked, reduced to two not that long ago. Easy to reinstate as the electric O/H hedspans still exist.

 

I live lineside here on the two track stretch just north of Wigan - It's a very busy railway now, 24 hours a day, express & local passenger trains mixed with slow (uphill northbound diesel hauled going north) freight. Inject the HS2 traffic and this stretch will be a timetable planners nightmare. This section could, in theory be 4 tracked, parts of it were modified for many years ago - but lots of housing etc is now lineside, again I very much doubt this will even be considered now.

 

We did have the Whelley loop (Wigan avoiding line) that was lifted in the 70's. Now a footpath but the viaduct over the Douglas valley has also long gone. Rebuilding as part of HS2 would solve the problem BUT at considerable extra expense - so won't happen. There are plans for Wigan to be a HS2 hub station - I'll believe that when I see it.

 

Brit15

 

All very informative - but are you saying that HS2 should be canned because it might lead to new pathing problems on a relatively small section of the WCML? If so* then that is about the clearest manifestation of 'if it doesn't benefit me ten nobody else should have it" attitude I have seen so far on this thread

 

As much of a nuisance / difficult it may be pathnig trains north of Wign in a post HS2 world, its going to be even harder to path any more trains on he congested WCML further south to London.

 

* Its not clear if this is, or is not your stance by the way.

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

All very informative - but are you saying that HS2 should be canned because it might lead to new pathing problems on a relatively small section of the WCML? If so* then that is about the clearest manifestation of 'if it doesn't benefit me ten nobody else should have it" attitude I have seen so far on this thread

 

As much of a nuisance / difficult it may be pathnig trains north of Wign in a post HS2 world, its going to be even harder to path any more trains on he congested WCML further south to London.

 

* Its not clear if this is, or is not your stance by the way.

 

 Calm down, I'm saying no such thing and I am a supporter of most aspects of HS2. Just pointing out some future problems oop here in sunny Wigan IF HS2 ever gets here..

 

Brit15

Edited August 28, 2019 by APOLLO
comment removed

[caradoc]

4 hours ago, APOLLO said:

IF HS2 is completely built as planned then Wigan-Euxton, the two track section will be a bottleneck. HS2 will join at Bamfurlong with a flying junction and 4 track (some is 6 track) up to Wigan NW. North of Wigan the Standish - Euxton bit was 4 tracked, reduced to two not that long ago. Easy to reinstate as the electric O/H hedspans still exist.

 

I live lineside here on the two track stretch just north of Wigan - It's a very busy railway now, 24 hours a day, express & local passenger trains mixed with slow (uphill northbound diesel hauled going north) freight. Inject the HS2 traffic and this stretch will be a timetable planners nightmare. This section could, in theory be 4 tracked, parts of it were modified for many years ago - but lots of housing etc is now lineside, again I very much doubt this will even be considered now.

 

We did have the Whelley loop (Wigan avoiding line) that was lifted in the 70's. Now a footpath but the viaduct over the Douglas valley has also long gone. Rebuilding as part of HS2 would solve the problem BUT at considerable extra expense - so won't happen. There are plans for Wigan to be a HS2 hub station - I'll believe that when I see it.

 

Brit15

 

Some interesting points Apollo, but won't the HS2 traffic north of Wigan. initially anyway, just be existing services diverted off the WCML, ie the hourly Glasgow/Euston and hourly Scotland/Euston via Birmingham trains, plus the odd Blackpool/Euston ? Hopefully HS2 will generate increased traffic, in which case additional capacity might be required; That could be an extension of HS2 northwards rather than adding to the present route !

 

[Clearwater]

21 hours ago, Clearwater said:

 

Eh?

You must have missed the posts describing the capacity constraints that the project relieves.

 

You’re mistaken about Birmingham and the West Midlands.  Check the city centre and the ongoing development. Check the newspaper articles describing it as a place to live.  Check the specialist engineering firms across the region.  The West Mids has two rail fed steel terminals, Brierley Hill and Wolverhampton.  Both take steel coil for use in manufacturing industries.  Hardly a failing city or region!

 

13 hours ago, rockershovel said:

I worked in Birmingham for 6 months in 2017. 

 

It was quite instructive, actually. I didn't realise that it was the second largest city in the U.K by a considerable margin, at approximately 1.1 million it is more than twice the size of Manchester, Glasgow or Liverpool for example, four times the size of Newcastle. 

 

Neither Brierly Hill nor, (oddly enough given the name) Wolverhampton, were in Birmingham, last time I looked. 

 

I've had two children go through University in the past decade and that gave me occasion to look at the subject in detail. Birmingham may have expanded greatly but (with the notable exception of BirmAston, the original Uni there) I wasn't impressed. 

 

The company I worked for was a specialist engineering company in the rail sector. Oddly enough they had no local suppliers or subcontractors, and have now left Birmingham altogether. 

 

Local newspapers cry up Birminghsm as a place to live? Really? Who'd have thought it? There's a great deal of foreign-funded property speculation in certain areas of the city, but I was amazed (walking into town along the canals) to find derelict sites and car parking on cleared sites within view of New Street Station. 

 

Oddly enough, one colleague there had a son in the Selly Oak Scout troop, and had no idea why their unit badge was the "chevalier de fer" which once denoted Ariel Motors; the once-vast BSA works are now totally vanished. 

 

I'm afraid that I found it a depressing experience, as with so much of the UK I have been reacquainting myself with (Plymouth was heart-breaking...)

 

 

 

 

I’m afraid I object to being misrepresented per your indirect reply to my post.  You will note that:

a) In answering your point about manufacturing,  I expressly point out other locations in the West Midlands, not just Birmingham.  Stating the places I mention are not in Birmingham is a cheap point.  Clearly, like Greater Manchester, you need to look at the wider conurbation and I was challenging your false assertion as to the lack of manufacturing in the region.  

b) you see that I did not reference local papers as you did.  There’s been several articles in the national press supporting my point.  Not just the local press...  eg https://www.theguardian.com/best-of-birmingham/2015/sep/09/where-should-i-live-in-birmingham-find-your-part-of-town ( of course, some people still refer to it as the Manchester Guardian...).  Other articles available if you look....

 

Clearly having lived in Birmingham for 6 months, you’re a complete expert.  Everyone can point to anecdotes about firms moving.  Some stay, some go, some new ones emerge.  Walk around the City Centre and compare it to 10, 20 and 30 years ago.  Place has changed/regenerated enormously.  There’s a huge amount of new office building going on in the city.  Same can be said for Leeds where there is a similar amount of building going on.  In any city you can find derelict and less svelte areas.  Even in London (Though admittedly significantly less over the last decade or so as the population has grown and what’s remained of ex-warehouses and factories have been redeveloped.)

 

Your posts frequently seek to analyse solely through the prism of heavy engineering that doesn’t exist in the form it existed in 40+ years ago.  That’s not to say such industry does not still exist.  Hence my point about the steel terminals in the region.  However, it’s changed and evolved. See here for for an example of redevelopment for advanced manufacturing.  http://www.amh-birmingham.com/the-advanced-manufacturing-hub.  Note how the development links to the creation of professional jobs in the City Centre offices https://www.chancerygate.com/developers-chancerygate-and-hines-buy-3-75-acres-at-astons-advanced-manufacturing-hub-to-build-14m-19-unit-industrial-scheme/

 

perhaps the Black Country’s LEP report might be worth a look: https://www.blackcountrylep.co.uk/upload/files/WMCA/West-Midlands-State-of-the-Region-2019.pdf. Covers the West Midlands as a whole and highlights weaknesses as well as strengths.

 

 

 If nothing ever evolved economically, we’d still be sitting in caves scratching flints.  To take a different example, we wouldn’t have seen the transition in the energy sector from coal fired power stations to technologies such as wind and solar being exploited at utility scale.  One major utility employs over a 1000 people in the uk on offshore wind alone! Jobs that didn’t exist in that form 5 to 20 years ago...

 

Cities evolve.  One of the factors driving growth in Birmingham is a move of businesses away from London.  See https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-42306654 which includes the relocation of Deutsche Bank and HSBC operations from London to Birmingham.  These type of moves could be argued as a “rebalancing” of the economy to the Midlands away from London.  Why are they doing it? They’re saving money as their own property costs are less and the costs are lower for their employees.  Probably helps dampen the hot London property as well.  

 

Im not arguing that there’s not more to do in creating high quality, fulfilling jobs nor that we as a country shouldn’t be investing more in our people and infrastructure.  Quite the contrary.  It’s projects like HS2 that help create jobs and help unlock the latent potential of our regions.

 

 

 

[rockershovel]

... you either have faith, or you don't. 

 

Been to Wolfsburg, have you? Seen what a modern, major automobile manufacturer in a European country CAN be? Seen Siemens, who are a modern rail manufacturer? Seen BMW, who seem able to build cars profitably in Oxford where British Leyland couldn't? 

 

Seen what the Germans, Dutch and Danes are doing with wind energy and renewables? Ive just spent the past fifteen months on coastal renewables work, and they have taken major opportunities which we have totally failed to grasp. 

 

Seen what Thyssen Krupp are already doing in the Far East and China? 

 

Seen Citroen Peugeot, who have apparently unlimited government backing? 

 

Im afraid that my considered opinion, based on thirty odd years of working mostly overseas, is that neither British industry, the British government nor the British financial system have the slightest idea how to run modern industry, and wouldn't know oportunity if it bit them in the leg. There is some sort of magical faith that "the market will provide" and it plainly doesn't. HS2 is just a symptom of that delusion. 

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by rockershovel

[melmerby]

19 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

... you either have faith, or you don't. 

 

Been to Wolfsburg, have you? Seen what a modern, major automobile manufacturer in a European country CAN be? Seen Siemens, who are a modern rail manufacturer? Seen BMW, who seem able to build cars profitably in Oxford where British Leyland couldn't? 

 

Seen what the Germans, Dutch and Danes are doing with wind energy and renewables? Ive just spent the past fifteen months on coastal renewables work, and they have taken major opportunities which we have totally failed to grasp. 

 

Seen what Thyssen Krupp are already doing in the Far East and China? 

 

Seen Citroen Peugeot, who have apparently unlimited government backing? 

 

Im afraid that my considered opinion, based on thirty odd years of working mostly overseas, is that neither British industry, the British government nor the British financial system have the slightest idea how to run modern industry, and wouldn't know oportunity if it bit them in the leg. There is some sort of magical faith that "the market will provide" and it plainly doesn't. HS2 is just a symptom of that delusion. 

 

You will use any arguments to try and make a point. Your arguments against Birmingham & The West Midlands were completely demolished so off you go on another tack.

Sounds like "Look how many stamps I have in my passport, I must be right"

Edited August 28, 2019 by melmerby

[Clearwater]

You clearly don’t have faith in what’s achieved in this country.

 

 I struggle to follow your argument given you believe neither the Government nor the market can provide.  Both plainly have provided.  That’s why the UK economy is still one of the largest in the world.  If the market wasn’t providing, then we wouldn’t have the fully stocked supermarkets, shops and other consumables such as model trains that we all love.  To paint the UK economy as failed is a gross misrepresentation.   

 

I’m not sure how HS2 is a symptom of a market delusion.  The fact that it needs to be Government funded, hence this thread in the first instance, shows the market will not fund it by itself.  If the business case was Net present value positive at a sensible discount rate from farebox alone less operating cost, less capital expenditure, then the financial markets would fund the scheme.  They won’t fund it, without a UK government guarantee, aka gilts,  precisely because they’re not deluded.  They’ve learnt historically that they will likely lose money on farebox or cost overrun alone and won’t do it.  However, Government recognises that the economic benefits of such schemes are captured in the broader economy and ultimately reflected in tax take - hence the Cost Benefit Analysis undertaken where they seek to quantify this subjective benefit.  The Government uses its financial muscle built up over the couple of hundred years since the Industrial revolution to bridge the gap and to create long-term UK value.

 

Im well aware of what other countries have done in manufacturing and equally in the offshore wind sector.  I’m surprised that in an age of global capital you’re bothered where firms are located.  That strikes me as narrowly nationalistic.  If you want to invest in Siemens, BMW etc you can. I’d wager your pension fund is partly invested in such stocks.  Those companies also locate cutting edge facilities in the UK -  you’ll be aware of the Siemens Gamesa plant in Hull serving the offshore wind industry.  BMW, Jaguar and other OEMs have, and will continue to have, UK car plants as you observe.   

 

Personally, I’m not bothered where offshore wind developers are headquartered (in any event, some of them are UK listed and as I observe even those overseas firms have substantial numbers of UK employees paying their NI, income tax etc).  If you want to invest, you can.   What matters, in my opinion, is that we’ve created a positive policy framework that has allowed massive investment into the offshore sector that’s seen costs roughly have over succeeding auctions.  The desire of companies from across the world to win those contracts and the market competition entailed has driven costs down.  That’s a success and why the UK is seen as a leader and achieved the UK’s public policy objective of reducing carbon emissions.  As an aside, I’d expect to see a shift in ownership over the next few years of the offshore wind farms from developers to long-term pension/insurance investors who’ll want the yield.  Again, you’ll be aware of the sector deal in offshore wind and the requirement to increase the UK content in schemes.  That’s hardly Government failure and an intervention to skew the market towards UK jobs.  Same argument applies to other industry and ownership.  The policy framework has created jobs.  Those jobs fund taxation which in turn funds common services.  Of course you can argue things could be better.  However, I’m missing in your posts what your prescription for the symptoms you observe.

[rockershovel]

....I am trying to make a very serious point, which goes far beyond Birmingham or HS2.

 

It is that there have been a series of opportunities since the 1970s; North Sea oil, offshore and onshore renewable energy, the general modernisation and transformation of the car manufacturing industry, the privatisation of utilities and public services. VW have prospered and in passing, transformed the once-risible Skoda brand - but what happened to Rover? DHL are ubiquitous, but what of Royal Mail? Our utilities and airports are owned by the French and Spanish, our new trains built by Germans and Japanese. 

 

This country has completely failed to grasp them, while other countries have grasped them to their profit. 

 

I dont doubt that HS2, if and when built, will be heavily used. Its (German and Japanese built) trains will be full; it could hardly be otherwise in a country with a population density as high as ours. But to what end? 

 

There seems to be a continuous cycle of "the next big thing" which will, in some unexplained way, reverse this trend; but where is it? 

 

A propos the question of "where things are owned", the answer is simple. That's where the profits go, that's where the control rests. Opel can close Vauxhall at any time, Vauxhall have no control over Opel. Oersted, Inogy or EDF get the revenues from the wind farms and we do not control what they charge, as has been abundantly demonstrated at Hinckley Point. The historic wealth of this country was built on the retained profits of its industry and trade.

 

The Dutch, Germans and Danes have built a whole new sector servicing windfarm construction, with their own plant and their own crews. The Italians control the supply of very expensive cables. They are now exporting that skill and capability, and we don't get a bent ha'penny of it. 

 

Thats why why I have no faith; the result of relying on "the market will provide" appears to be that other nations, with a much clearer notion of where their interests lie, reap the reward. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by rockershovel

[Dava]

16 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

....I am trying to make a very serious point, which goes far beyond Birmingham or HS2.

 

It is that there have been a series of opportunities since the 1970s; North Sea oil, offshore and onshore renewable energy, the general modernisation and transformation of the car manufacturing industry, the privatisation of utilities and public services. VW have prospered and in passing, transformed the once-risible Skoda brand - but what happened to Rover? DHL are ubiquitous, but what of Royal Mail? Our utilities and airports are owned by the French and Spanish, our new trains built by Germans and Japanese. 

 

This country has completely failed to grasp them, while other countries have grasped them to their profit. 

 

I dont doubt that HS2, if and when built, will be heavily used. Its (German and Japanese built) trains will be full; it could hardly be otherwise in a country with a population density as high as ours. But to what end? 

 

There seems to be a continuous cycle of "the next big thing" which will, in some unexplained way, reverse this trend; but where is it? 

 

A propos the question of "where things are owned", the answer is simple. That's where the profits go, that's where the control rests. Opel can close Vauxhall at any time, Vauxhall have no control over Opel. Oersted, Inogy or EDF get the revenues from the wind farms and we do not control what they charge, as has been abundantly demonstrated at Hinckley Point. The historic wealth of this country was built on the retained profits of its industry and trade.

 

The Dutch, Germans and Danes have built a whole new sector servicing windfarm construction, with their own plant and their own crews. The Italians control the supply of very expensive cables. They are now exporting that skill and capability, and we don't get a bent ha'penny of it. 

 

Thats why why I have no faith; the result of relying on "the market will provide" appears to be that other nations, with a much clearer notion of where their interests lie, reap the reward. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is not too remarkable to point out, as you are doing, that mainland European companies are more agile and professional in cleaning up here than the few UK companies still able to compete in the UK rail sector and other fields, Siemens, Abellio, DB and others as examples. The U.K could have engaged and competed much more effectively in European markets but did not. Instead we opened our markets up but failed to compete at a continental level. Look at the train makers for the Crossrail & HS2 contracts.  

 

The quality of management in UK companies is less than impressive and rarely world class, too often dominated by accountants, prioritizing short-term performance and bonuses not longer term strategic leadership and innovation. Also, government has too big a role in decisions they do not understand. 

 

Others can make the links to B****t if they choose.

 

Dava

[rockershovel]

... it isn’t just a matter of failing to compete, although that is real enough. We were never going to be allowed to compete, and that is true in Europe and far beyond it as well. 

 

Still, press on...

 

 

 

[APOLLO]

12 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Some interesting points Apollo, but won't the HS2 traffic north of Wigan. initially anyway, just be existing services diverted off the WCML, ie the hourly Glasgow/Euston and hourly Scotland/Euston via Birmingham trains, plus the odd Blackpool/Euston ? Hopefully HS2 will generate increased traffic, in which case additional capacity might be required; That could be an extension of HS2 northwards rather than adding to the present route !

 

 

I read a proposed HS2 services plan when the HS2 plans were published (a long time ago). HS2 to Glasgow were a supplement to most existing services. I'll try to dig it out & post a link - of course it is only a proposal, and years old already. What about Warrington ? - a large town - almost a city now and the HS2 link to Bamfurlong by passes Warrington. Most current Glasgow - London services call here, an important stop. Liverpool folks are non too pleased also though their services will join HS2 at Crewe, most stop at Runcorn also.

 

Brit15

 

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by APOLLO
typo

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, PhilH said:

Thanks Mike, but thinking more of winning lottery numbers....

If I knew those I wouldn't even tell you Phil  

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, rockershovel said:

... you either have faith, or you don't. 

 

Been to Wolfsburg, have you? Seen what a modern, major automobile manufacturer in a European country CAN be? Seen Siemens, who are a modern rail manufacturer? Seen BMW, who seem able to build cars profitably in Oxford where British Leyland couldn't? 

 

Seen what the Germans, Dutch and Danes are doing with wind energy and renewables? Ive just spent the past fifteen months on coastal renewables work, and they have taken major opportunities which we have totally failed to grasp. 

 

Seen what Thyssen Krupp are already doing in the Far East and China? 

 

Seen Citroen Peugeot, who have apparently unlimited government backing? 

 

Im afraid that my considered opinion, based on thirty odd years of working mostly overseas, is that neither British industry, the British government nor the British financial system have the slightest idea how to run modern industry, and wouldn't know oportunity if it bit them in the leg. There is some sort of magical faith that "the market will provide" and it plainly doesn't. HS2 is just a symptom of that delusion. 

 

Apparently you never visited Llanwern steelworks where the changes oin working practices, equipment, and productivity leapt up enormously after privatisation.  The number of man hours it took to roll a 12  ton steel coil made it one of the most efficient rolling mills in Europe.  Equally you seem to be unfamiliar with BR - although it's a while since it went of course - which had the most efficient passenger rolling stock utilisation in Europe and to a degree which many other European countries still haven't got anywhere near.

 

It isn't all sunshine and roses, or industrial efficiency, on the mainland compared with Britain.

10 hours ago, Dava said:

 

It is not too remarkable to point out, as you are doing, that mainland European companies are more agile and professional in cleaning up here than the few UK companies still able to compete in the UK rail sector and other fields, Siemens, Abellio, DB and others as examples. The U.K could have engaged and competed much more effectively in European markets but did not. Instead we opened our markets up but failed to compete at a continental level. Look at the train makers for the Crossrail & HS2 contracts.  

 

The quality of management in UK companies is less than impressive and rarely world class, too often dominated by accountants, prioritizing short-term performance and bonuses not longer term strategic leadership and innovation. Also, government has too big a role in decisions they do not understand. 

 

Others can make the links to B****t if they choose.

 

Dava

You obviously haven't been on the receiving end of dealing with 'mainland European' managed rolling stock manufacturers.

[lmsforever]

Over many years I have visited Birmingham  work or pleasure and it is area ,but travelling around is fairly easy with many suburbs having large parks that are well maintained. The population has grown rapidly and don't forget that prewar it had an excellent tram system leaving a legacy of wide roads with grassed central reservations.The city has well served local shopping areas I know of these because in the seventies I had to visit every KFC shop on urgent hygiene inspections ,an eye opening experience! But the point is that its a vibrant growing place and rightly deserves its second city ephete.

[runs as required]

2 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Over many years I have visited Birmingham  work or pleasure and it is area ,but travelling around is fairly easy with many suburbs having large parks that are well maintained. The population has grown rapidly and don't forget that prewar it had an excellent tram system leaving a legacy of wide roads with grassed central reservations.The city has well served local shopping areas I know of these because in the seventies I had to visit every KFC shop on urgent hygiene inspections ,an eye opening experience! But the point is that its a vibrant growing place and rightly deserves its second city ephete.

At one time this (Conservative voting) City was transformed by Chamberlain who's Civic leadership and pride in his city, brought about huge advances in public health with the open spaces you draw attention to, sewers and water supply (nicked from Wales) and the broad boulevards with the trams (carrying their famous Brummy slogan "Forward" ) .

He had a policy for the city acquiring city centre land and "farming' it through the granting of leases - at one time advocated across the Brit influenced world.

 

Almost all this Provincial control has been abandoned since we discovered the 'Hidden Hand' of the Market. Local councils have been starved of funds leading to the decline of the "Public Realm" and privatised shopping, commercial and residential enclaves.

 

Interestingly Chamberlain's  formula for the "City Beautiful" has been revived in North America with "The New Urbanists" arguing for Boulevard development spines 

dh